Topic: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
Started by: Dreams_of_Cats
Started on: 9/15/2004
Board: Publishing
On 9/15/2004 at 6:00am, Dreams_of_Cats wrote:
(Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
Hi -
The Background:
I would like to produce a non-system specific city book, with hundreds of pages of maps, NPC's, and line drawings. It would be crammed with plot hooks, conspiracies, and evil plots. This would be usable with any fantasy RPG system. It would be in PDF format for free. I would include a suggestion that if the reader enjoys what they are seeing, they could acquire a spiral bound for $5.00 plus the cost for shipping.
The NPC's would be described in detail as to motivations and personalities, but the power levels and system specific stuff would be only sketched. The booklet would hopefully be written well enough to be fun to read and enjoy. The art would be black and white line art, comparable in quality to the art produced by Liz Danforth.
The inspiration:
I enjoyed the City Book catalyst series by Blade, but wanted something that was more cohesive. The books are nice, but the businesses, conspiracies and NPCs don't interact. I want a sprawling dynamic city, with lots of interconnectivity.
Perceived problems:
1. I'm not sure that people like generic stuff. This may never sell unless I slap a system under it. (Whether my own, or someone elses)
My Assets:
1. I'm a fairly talented line artist, and have done quite a bit of pixel work on the PC.
2. I write fairly well, and can spin a good yarn.
3. My friends consider me a talented GM.
4. I'd have fun doing this, but wouldn't waste my time bringing it up to publishing level quality if there was no interest.
My Specific questions:
1. Do you think something like this would be interesting to people?
2. Do non-system specific products work???
3. What would this product have to include in order to interest you?
I was working off of a timetable of maybe 6 months from drawing board to finished form. I would do most of the work myself, with the exception of proof reading and editing.
So what think ye?
I'll provide more details if anyone's interested in chatting more about the topic. I'm in the information gathering phase right now, and consider the Forge as being one my best assets for a sanity check.
-Joseph
On 9/15/2004 at 8:49am, greedo1379 wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
I think it sounds like an awesome idea. I would love to see something like this.
Just as a question though, "hundreds of pages" of paper and a binding alone might cost you more than your planned $5 price. Hmmm... that isn't really so much a question as a statement. Anyway, let me know when the pdf is ready!
Edit-
Missed your questions:
Perceived problems:
1. I'm not sure that people like generic stuff. This may never sell unless I slap a system under it. (Whether my own, or someone elses)
I like generic stuff. I would really love it if I could get some lower magic, no planar travel type stuff. There are a gazillion places to go to get another Forgotten Realms whatever where everyone has a magic headband and skips over to their inter-dimensional vacation house. I want something generically fantasy but without all that.
My Specific questions:
1. Do you think something like this would be interesting to people?
Yes. To me anyway.
2. Do non-system specific products work???
Yes I think so. I think you are always going to have bad GMs that refuse to do any work on their own. (I see this all the time on D20 boards where the guy is upset that the level 17 sorceror NPC doesn't have a complete spell list) Then again, unless you picked that guy's system he wouldn't pick up your book anyway (The guy would never buy a D20 book for his Vampire campaign. Even if it was, at its core, exactly what he was looking for) But I would like to think that many GMs would love to have something like this.
3. What would this product have to include in order to interest you?
I think I am really more concerned about what isn't there. I don't want the high magic or interdimensional garbage.
I would like a city that has some personality. I get very specific feelings when I think of real world cities. That would be important to me.
You mentioned plot hooks for the different NPCs. You would need a *lot* of these. I would like to have plot hooks for all the main powerful people but then also plenty of them for "little people". My PCs may kill the dragon terrorizing the country at the king's request but they are going to have to have a couple months of little errands for the innkeeper or the cobbler's daughter, etc.
I dunno, I guess that's realyl about it.
On 9/15/2004 at 1:15pm, ethan_greer wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
If this is something you want to do, then do it. Don't worry so much about marketability or what other people want. Make the product that you have always wanted, and your enthusiasm will infect others.
On the other hand, if you want this to actually sell well, then I'd recommend making it d20 compatible. I'd also recommend making it a for-sale PDF as opposed to a freebie with the option to buy.
In any case, it sounds like a cool project. Good luck with it, and keep us posted.
On 9/15/2004 at 2:15pm, timfire wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
Isn't this basically what that d20 book "City Works" is? Or at least, "City Works" goes into detail how to construct a city, not neccessarily presents pre-made cities.
PS- For future reference, this type of topic should probably go in Publishing. Indie Design is usually reserved for actual projects that have already been started, or that the author is gearing up to start. Not possible projects.
On 9/15/2004 at 2:41pm, smokewolf wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
Why put it out for free?
This kinda thing would sell for $5-10 at RPGNOW.com and people WILL but it. They buy all kinds of things. Heck I sell a character sheet for my game over there and people are willing to pay for it. Albiet only $1 and it is 30 pages but if its good it will sell.
You should check out the other stuff there. Check out the top sellers list and look at products that have comments. Also, to leave a comment people have to have purchased the product and only about 1 in 20 people leave comments (so if a product has 3 comments, that about 60 sales or so).
On 9/15/2004 at 9:32pm, Dreams_of_Cats wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
Greedo1379: I think I am really more concerned about what isn't there. I don't want the high magic or interdimensional garbage.
I would like a city that has some personality. I get very specific feelings when I think of real world cities. That would be important to me.
You mentioned plot hooks for the different NPCs. You would need a *lot* of these. I would like to have plot hooks for all the main powerful people but then also plenty of them for "little people". My PCs may kill the dragon terrorizing the country at the king's request but they are going to have to have a couple months of little errands for the innkeeper or the cobbler's daughter, etc.
Thank you for the encouragement. I've already started collecting my notes, and and I'm starting the rough word processing this weekend. I'm looking at up to 4-6 months to get the thing where I want it.
Some highlights:
1. A huge city divided up into unique districts, with maps for each district. The maps will show the location of every building in the city. Not every building will have detailed description, but at least the shell will be there. I'm toying with the idea of indicating the height of each bldg, as well as its construction. (Wood, brick etc.)
2. There will be approximately 75-100 NPCs.
3. All major NPCs will have a line drawing in the rear of the book. 9 small drawings to a page should work.
4. There will be an extensive, and exhaustive index. This will include a listing by character type, faction type, social standing etc.
5. Low to medium magic. The magic that is there, will mostly be behind the scenes. The theme of the city is fairly gritty, and seedy.
6. I have a target of 3-5 plot hooks per npc. Most would be low to medium difficulty, with a few being terrifyingly dangererous. While most plot hooks would be a paragraph or two, some would be up to a full page.
7. Shadow Wood is an independant city state, and is attractive to merchants, "free thinkers", social misfits, and anyone who operates just outside the law. The city is on a caravan route in the outlands, is the convergence of several prominant trade routes. There is an opportunity to meet people from all over. The central authority is a self proclaimed baron, who was born with a natural magic resistance, rendering him effectively immune to mind control, divination, etc. He is a shrewd businessman, and gets his cut right off of the top.
8. It is said - you can buy almost anything in Shadow Wood. If the price is right: Slaves, proscribed substances, illegal artifacts, etc. There are even two or three temples in town that are illegal anywhere else. The Baron doesn't really care what you do, as long as you respect the rights and property of other people. He also like things really quiet. Want to do a ritual human sacrifice of a willing person? No problem, just keep it behind closed doors- and we'd better not hear the screams. Want to sell slaves taken from your raids? Fine, just remember to pay the Baron his tariff, and don't raid any settlements any closer then 200 miles away.
It may not be the best city in which to raise a family, but it is a place full of danger, opportunity and excitement.
Anyway, I'll be posting now and then to tell people my progress... should be fun.
Joseph
On 9/15/2004 at 11:38pm, Vaxalon wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
Check out my book, "Powers that Be". It didn't do very well... 80-100 sales.
On 9/16/2004 at 7:31am, greedo1379 wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
It sounds great so far. One other thing I thought of is: try not to fit everything into one city. Don't feel bad that there is no... halfling district. Or that there are no airshipyards. Or, etc. I guess this kind of ties in to the "make the city have a flavor". I guess I am just adding the words "homogenous, distinct" in front of the word "flavor".
But really, it does sound great. The cheapskate in me would love for you to keep it as a free download but I agree, you could probably sell it for $5 or more right off (in pdf form). It you really do get up to 300+ pages put it at $10.
On 9/16/2004 at 9:50am, Vaxalon wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
The usual price for a PDF on RPGnow is about $1 per ten pages, or thereabouts.
On 9/16/2004 at 4:17pm, Dreams_of_Cats wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
Vaxalon wrote: The usual price for a PDF on RPGnow is about $1 per ten pages, or thereabouts.
Thanks for the heads up regarding the price. Since this is a labor of love and I'm really looking for exposure, I'l probably set the price pretty low. I checked out your product BTW, and was pleased by what I saw. The line drawings are very crisp, the text legible. The building layouts; very useful. Looks like a fun product.
May I ask what program you used of the layout? Right now I only have access to MS Word, MS Publisher, and Acrobat.
-Joseph
On 9/16/2004 at 4:36pm, Dreams_of_Cats wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
greedo1379 wrote: It sounds great so far. One other thing I thought of is: try not to fit everything into one city. Don't feel bad that there is no... halfling district. Or that there are no airshipyards. Or, etc. I guess this kind of ties in to the "make the city have a flavor". I guess I am just adding the words "homogenous, distinct" in front of the word "flavor".
But really, it does sound great. The cheapskate in me would love for you to keep it as a free download but I agree, you could probably sell it for $5 or more right off (in pdf form). It you really do get up to 300+ pages put it at $10.
Good point about cramming stuff in. I have a tendancy to try and do too much. (Heh-heh) Sometimes less is more. I think this thing could easily go 200-300 pages. Your points about a homogenous city are well taken. You're very right. I want to do something that seems consistant.
The city will be designed with basically human people, but I will include options such as alternate pictures, should the GM want to use classic fantasy tropes such as elves, dwarves etc. I.E: The local bowyer will have a picture depicting him as an elve, and also as a human. The GM uses whichever suits him.
I'll be including some schedules in the mix. which should give players something to react to. For example, the slave traders hold an auction semi weekly in the market place. On a Saturday. It tends to be a big event that draws people away from their homes to gawk at the poor unfortunates. It is a good time for thieves to work the crowd, or do some residential burglary.
The arena has wrestling matches weekly - and gladitorial combat monthly. There is plenty of wagering on the events.
There are coaches which leave for distant places weekly. You can also get local service for a small amount.
Enforcement of the law is a public spectacle, with the local Baron is in favor of using the pillory, stocks, and floggings. Trials are also out in the open, and quite a draw.
I'm thinking a local calandar would be appropriate, depicting the events of a single month as a sample.
Feel free to throw any more advice or ideas you may have, I'm taking notes. :)
-Joseph
On 9/16/2004 at 7:44pm, jdagna wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
I think it sounds like a very good potential product (of course, everything depends on how it actually comes out). I know that people buy generic stuff. In fact, it's my opinion that people think no one buys it because most of the time no one can find it (generics are never backed by one of the major publishers which means they usualy lack marketing and distribution). I think something like this would do very well on RPGNow.
The biggest weakness I see in it: the length would actually deter me from buying it (and I'm sure that I'm not alone). Anything over about 150 pages would make me think "This city is too big and complex - I couldn't ever possibly remember even half of what was going on at any time." If I were buying it, I'd rather see a base city book with the basics and then a series of "splatbooks" on regions. For example, a city overview book (100 pages) with a 50-page splatbook on the docks region.
The irony of this is that splitting it up into splat books will probably increase both the number of sales and the sale price. ($5 each for a core book and 5 splats is "cheap" by most people's reckoning, but $20 for the whole thing is "expensive" even though it's actually cheaper). And, every time a new product comes out, you're likely to get new buyers who will also buy your old ones, while a single product might get a lot of initial sales then and just collect e-dust on the PDF store shelves.
You asked about layout software: I strongly recommend either InDesign or Quark XPress (I use both, but mostly QXP). You can get by with Word, but for things like the index you talk about, a few hundred dollars for the pro packages will be worth the time you save doing that.
PS: Are you doing the maps yourself? I could use a good map illustrator for my own projects...
On 9/16/2004 at 9:05pm, Dreams_of_Cats wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
jdagna wrote: The biggest weakness I see in it: the length would actually deter me from buying it (and I'm sure that I'm not alone). Anything over about 150 pages would make me think "This city is too big and complex - I couldn't ever possibly remember even half of what was going on at any time." If I were buying it, I'd rather see a base city book with the basics and then a series of "splatbooks" on regions. For example, a city overview book (100 pages) with a 50-page splatbook on the docks region.
The irony of this is that splitting it up into splat books will probably increase both the number of sales and the sale price. ($5 each for a core book and 5 splats is "cheap" by most people's reckoning, but $20 for the whole thing is "expensive" even though it's actually cheaper). And, every time a new product comes out, you're likely to get new buyers who will also buy your old ones, while a single product might get a lot of initial sales then and just collect e-dust on the PDF store shelves.
Damn - hadn't thought of that. I guess I'm still stuck on "bigger is better". Your suggestion makes a lot of sense though: People could buy the splats to use independantly, or the whole product as you mentioned.
You asked about layout software: I strongly recommend either InDesign or Quark XPress (I use both, but mostly QXP). You can get by with Word, but for things like the index you talk about, a few hundred dollars for the pro packages will be worth the time you save doing that.
That is very useful. I'll check out those products stat!
PS: Are you doing the maps yourself? I could use a good map illustrator for my own projects...
Yes, I'll be doing the maps myself. I'd be happy to do a freebie for you to show you what I'm capable of. Send me a PM and we can discuss.
-Joseph
On 9/16/2004 at 9:58pm, Tav_Behemoth wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
Vaxalon wrote: Check out my book, "Powers that Be". It didn't do very well... 80-100 sales.
And "Powers that Be" had the power of the EN Press brand name behind it! It sounds like your motivation is doing something cool and fun, Joseph, so you might not want to limit yourself to having only a number of gaming groups in this range using your stuff.
If you were thinking about giving it away free as a PDF anyways, I'd recommend a variation on Justin's advice:
1) Split it up into a core city book that's as short as you can make it and still give a complete framework. Give this away for free as a PDF via as many routes as you can think of.
2) Sell supplements that expand on specific aspects of the city as PDFs, priced at the rough estimate of $1 per 10 pages -- but keep in mind that products that are art- and map-heavy, such as the tactical terrain stuff from SkeletonKey and 0One, is priced higher than this formula.
3) Depending on how much money you want to sink into this, get hardcopies made using either a small print run or POD; use these as demos at local conventions, sell them through your website, etc. (and make sure the free PDF has directions to your site and conveys the message that you can buy a printed version from you for ultimately less than it'd cost to do it themselves).
4) Go the extra mile for people who have adopted your city -- take input about what to do next, make a forum & mailing list for people who are using it, etc. in order to help your setting take root & develop a fan base.
You might look at the Vintryi Project as an example; they've been making some interesting posts about their free-setting strategy on the OGF listserv, and seem like the kind of folks who'd be happy to give you advice:
http://www.vintyri.com/vintyri/vintyri.htm
By the way, that sounds very cool! And no, I don't think d20 stats are necessary; if you find enough fans, some of them will go ahead and make stats for d20 and various other games which you can then encourage them to share. But I think the best fit strategy for your goals & intentions is to get people playing, and some people won't pick it up if it's associated with any game system X.
On 9/16/2004 at 11:40pm, ffilz wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
Hmm, a danger in splitting it up is the concern that the whole thing never gets published. I'm far less likely to use "The Free City of Haven" than the Sanctuary of "Thieves World" because part of Haven is very detailed, while the rest has almost no information. And having been burned once, I might wait until your whole city is out before buying...
Another potential trouble with a generic city is what assumptions do you make about the settings it will be used in? To get the most potential buyers it should have a D&D feel, but then the existence of a dwarven quarter might turn off someone who's into Acrana Unearthed. And of course if it doesn't have a bizarre mayan or asian look, I might have a hard time using it in a Tekumel campaign.
Just some thoughts...
Frank
On 9/17/2004 at 12:11am, Ben Lehman wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
I'm planning a book somewhat similar to this. While I don't have much to add, really, I would be very interested to see how this goes (obviously). Please keep me updated.
The one thing that I can say is don't shy away from a certain degree of specificity. You cannot make a generic city, and so it is best to accept that you are designing setting, and focus on making it good, useful setting, rather than trying to avoid the presence of setting at all.
yrs--
--Ben
On 9/17/2004 at 12:16am, smokewolf wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
I would have to add, that if its a city you want to build then build it. Add whatever you think should be in the city in it. If you think there should be elves, then add elves to it. Have a clear design in your head and follow it. If its good people will use it.
Remember the adage:
You can always cut rope to fit, but you can not add to it.
On 9/17/2004 at 5:12am, greedo1379 wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
Splitting it up would be an awesome idea! And definately, releasing five "books", one per month for $5 would be better than releasing a single large book once for $20. You keep it it the "New Releases" area and end up with more money.
If you didn't want to split it up into geographic sections you could also do it by relative "power level". Like I said before, my characters would have to do a lot of little jobs for the cobbler and money lender before the king sends them out. You could just do Books 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 where 1 is the basic introduction to the city. Two is the inn and main shops adventurers would want to go (getting all the adventure hooks) and so on until you get to Five with the super high level stuff.
I think Geographic would actually be preferable for me but just as an alternative.
On 9/17/2004 at 5:34am, greedo1379 wrote:
RE: (Generic Fantasy City Book PDF) Viable Product?
ffilz wrote: Another potential trouble with a generic city is what assumptions do you make about the settings it will be used in? To get the most potential buyers it should have a D&D feel, but then the existence of a dwarven quarter might turn off someone who's into Acrana Unearthed. And of course if it doesn't have a bizarre mayan or asian look, I might have a hard time using it in a Tekumel campaign.
I've got to confess that I'm not familiar with Tekumel or Arcana Unearthed. With that out of the way, I can assume that Arcana Unearthed doesn't have dwarves or has special dwarves and Tekumel is an asian/mayan type setting.
In cases like this it would be up to the GM to either replace dwarves with a more appropriate race (swapping out "Dwarf" for "Human" and "The Stonecutter's District" or "Metalworker's District" rather than Dwarftown for example) or remove that section of the city entirely. Regarding the "look" it would be up to the GM to just show different pictures of the city and NPCs.
Personally I am most interested in Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms setting so I would probably replace the elves and half elves with humans, halflings with gobbers, and half orcs with trollkin and ogrun. The magic shop would end up being a mekanika shop. And so on. The core of the setting would remain intact though. Just the window dressing would change.
I think this is an important point though. I don't think it would be a bad idea to explain this is in the introduction or somewhere like that.
And actually... supplying a book just of line drawings in different genres could be a useful thing...