I've only just recently started playing Sorcerer again. Time and other concerns made any role-playing prohibitive. But that's besides the point.

I was under the assumption that when the ability Armor is used, it would protect the user against a single attack. But after reading through the forum a but now I read that Armor, as well as abilities like Cloak, and Protection, last throught the entire scene.

I thought to myself, that this couldn't be right. You can only "use" Armor to defend against a single attack! So I read the book again, and again, and again... what the hell am I missing here?

So, tell me if I've got this right, Abilities such as; Armor, Big, Cloak, Cover, Perception, and Protection only need to be activated once, at the begining of the combat/scene, and will last throughout?

If this is true, I've got an entirely new perspective of ability combinations to think about when it's time to summon a new demon!

Hello,

Yup! You have it correct now.

Best,
Ron

Okay, question #2: Special Damage

For example, Special Damage Fire. Is the Special Damage activated at the start of the conflict with each successful attack doing fire damage, or does each attack count as a seperate "use" of the Special Damage ability?

Hello,

I count each "zap" as a use of Special Damage. Pretty tiring stuff.

If you think in terms of Elric and Stormbringer, and consider that its Need is for Love, then when Elric uses its Special Damage a ton of times, it works best when the fight excludes relationships with other people, or even better, damages those relationships. Open assassination of a friend or lover is clearly the best possible, so a fight which looks like it might get there is worth Stormbringer's time. So is a fight which isolates Elric from any sort of community.

But if it's a plain old fight, then the sword gets fractious - sometimes it just stops working ("I'm full!") and sometimes worse. And if Elric is prioritizing another person over it, then boy, look out - it has all sorts of things to do then.

Whoops, got sidetracked - the point is that if you want a demon to provide a ton of Special Damage in your favor, throughout a fight, then I sure hope you can keep beefing its Need throughout the fight itself, to keep its Fatigue from overwhelming it.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: - the point is that if you want a demon to provide a ton of Special Damage in your favor, throughout a fight, then I sure hope you can keep beefing its Need throughout the fight itself, to keep its Fatigue from overwhelming it.

Really?

Fulfilling Need cures Fatigue. This may be a sorcery/demon customizing thing.

Best,
Ron

I think what Ron may mean by "Really?" is that a demon isn't "your big, hungry friend." In fact, it's not your friend, it isn't doing stuff for you because it likes you...it's doing stuff for you because you give it what it wants. It's more like a hostile employee: you give it money, it works.

You overwork it and it doesn't get "enough" money (from its own perspective) for the job, and it will either stop working, work half-assed (probably to your detriment), or screw-you-over-big-time to get you back for abusing it, you underpaying bastard (definitely to your detriment). For example, if your demon worked for you in a bar, it would masturbate in the drinks, and piss on the glasses. If it knew the health inspector was coming, it would make sure to let a rat loose and offer him a drink with a cockroach in it.

That's the contract with a demon, and that's what you avoid by fulfilling Need. The demon is the worst hostile employee you can think of, and you have to keep giving it more money because you hired it for your own reasons, motherfucker. And you think it is worth it.

Okay, that clears up almost every question I had.

So, last question:This one concerns Armor and or Protection vs. Special Damage.

Armor is effective against any sort of Special Damage that involves physical attacks.
Example: Special Damage: Claws/Fangs, Needles, Quills, Spikes, Flay, etc…

Protection is effective against any sort of Special Damage that involves non-physical attacks
Example: Special Damage: Fire, Electricity, Poison, Rot, Convulsion, etc…

Am I right about this? Or is Protection the ONLY defense against ALL forms of Special Damage?

Hello,

Good question - my reasoning at the time was that Armor protects against all impact, clawing, kinetic attacks; and that Protection protects against all fire, chemical, radiation, and pyschic attacks. Any other attack concept should be farmed into one of these categories, or perhaps a category that both abilities will protect against. I didn't want to have any conceivable attack that was not protected against by at least one of these abilities.

Any Champions veteran will see the influence there, although Protection combines Ego Defense with Energy Defense.

Today, I wonder whether I should have just had the one ability "Protection" and then permitted customization. Although it seems to me that that construction would have led to far more reader-confusion than the current one does.

Best,
Ron

Hey Ron, thanks a lot. I think that answers all of my questions. Although I may think of some new ones in the future.

I like that Armor and Protection are seperate abilities and are exactly what the system requires. A steel breastplate (Armor) may provide defense against a knife or bullet, but it won't do much good against a flame-thrower. Just as an asbestos suit will protect you against fire, but a bullet or knife will cut right through it.

Okay, after talking over all of the recent revelations concerning timing and duration of abilities with my GM, we realized that there is one more thing to clear up. It concerns the ability Travel.

Now the question is about one form of travel in particular, namely teleportation, but it can apply to many different forms.

If the demon has the ability Travel (Teleport) and has Power 6, that means the maximum distance the demon could travel is six times normal human movement for up to six hours. Say humans have an average speed of four miles per hour, then the demon could teleport a maximum of 144 miles, and it takes six hours to accomplish. But say the demon doesn’t want to go that far. Say instead that the demon wants to teleport to a spot just behind goon number one, where it can proceed to …what ever. Goon number one doesn’t last long, and the demon sees it’s next victim across the room. Here’s the dilemma, if the demon were just flying it could have flown over to goon one and had it’s way with him then flown over to goon two and done the same, for up to six hours, or until running out of goons. But if the demon teleports to the next goon, is it considered another “use” of the power, or can the demon make many short jaunts for the duration of the Travel limit of six hours or 144 miles?

Oh Christ.

You guys have to do one thing for me before I answer this question. It is: forget all concerns about energy, distance, and effects.

The demon-ability rules in Sorcerer are completely unconcerned with this. All mention of meters and similar things are, in retrospect, very badly misleading to folks who are used to thinking in terms of internal game physics (although occasionally useful logistically).

If X costs "1 use," then doesn't half of X cost "half a use?" That's the logic you're using, and it needs to vanish. All of it. Just lose it entirely.

Uses of demon abilities are better understood as instances of commitment. Either the demon is committed to someone else (perhaps its master, perhaps not), or to itself (e.g. when protecting itself, or indulging its Desire).

When the demon teleports in the fight scene you mentioned, is it committed to something? Sure. It's fighting. There - an instance of commitment, specifically to the person it's protecting, or toward itself perhaps. Oh, here comes another chance to teleport during the fight. If the demon is again committed, then it will do it. These are two separate actions, two instances of "what the demon wants" at the respective moments.

Two days later, it teleports across a city block, far more distance than it did for all the teleports during the fight combined. It's still just one instance of commitment.

See? Two uses during the fight, one use two days later.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: Oh Christ.

You guys have to do one thing for me before I answer this question. It is: forget all concerns about energy, distance, and effects.

I realize now that we were becoming bogged down into Simulationist play, and that it was mostly my fault. I’ve found lately that I’ve had to keep reminding myself not to spend too much time on the details. How many feet away is my opponent, how many times can I attack this round, how many time have I used Psychic Force, details, details, details.

It might also have to do with the fact that I’m subconsciously trying to min-max a combat powerhouse. I had this image of a demon that would constantly teleport around the fight tearing apart the opposition. But looking at the previous post about demons reducing fatigue though having their needs met, well, I might just be able to have that nasty unstoppable combat powerhouse after all. Of course I would expect my GM to come up with the interesting set of problems being Bound with that demon would lead to.

Thanks for you help with my questions everyone!

Hello,

Zaidaco, you do realize that teleporting around the fight really wouldn't convey any special advantage to that demon in combat? It would permit it to attack opponents at various ranges, sure. But that's all.

The rolls would still be plain old combat rolls, with occasional bonuses perhaps. Just like everyone else.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: Zaidaco, you do realize that teleporting around the fight really wouldn't convey any special advantage to that demon in combat? It would permit it to attack opponents at various ranges, sure. But that's all.

Hello,

You're typing too fast, man. Two posts ago, you say you "might be able to have that unstoppable combat powerhouse after all." I tell you why you won't have it. You respond, Oh, that's not what I meant.

Dude, I can only work with what you type, not what you mean. Slow down a little.

Best,
Ron

Zaidaco wrote:

Ron Edwards wrote: Zaidaco, you do realize that teleporting around the fight really wouldn't convey any special advantage to that demon in combat? It would permit it to attack opponents at various ranges, sure. But that's all.

Oh I realize that. It's mainly for asthetic reasons now. Just think of the horror of running from the room in which you buddy is being torn apart only to find that whatever was doing the tearing is now standing right in front of you. That sort of thing.

Hello,

And the +1 die bonus is highly conditional anyway. It's not a standing bonus. I can think about about a hundred situations in which it's not relevant, and quite a few others in which it'd be a once-in-a-scene thing.

Best,
Ron

I feel as though I’ve offended you in some way Ron, and I hope that isn’t the case. But, I’ve had some time to organize my thoughts about the “unstoppable combat powerhouse” and “maybe still being able to get it”. Up till now I haven’t really Summoned and Bound a demon whose sole purpose is to fight my battles. In a Sorcerer & Sword campaign we played months ago, I had a few demons that made my Sorcerer into a combat worthy foe, but at that point I was fascinated by object demons, and they were all of that type.

We’ve now began playing in a modern day Sorcerer setting. I decided that I should be as clear as I could about what the different demon abilities could and could not do. While looking through the forum, I found a reference to certain abilities that I had always assumed had to be activated each and every time they came up in a scene (Armor, Cloak, Fast, Protection, Perception, etc…). This led me to other questions, Armor vs. Protection, is Special Damage activated like the abilities above or does each attack constitute use, all questions that were answered quickly and well.

But then I started thinking about Travel and specifically about Teleport. How long did it last, how far could you go, that sort of thing. I had convinced myself, and nearly my GM, that a demon with Travel (Teleport) would only need to activate it once at the beginning of the scene, and that it would be able to keep teleporting for short distances until either a number of hours had passed or it had gone the maximum calculated distance. Numbers numbers numbers. Luckily my GM wasn’t convinced and had me put the question to the board, which I did, and again good, quick answers.

So here I was, my original vision of the combat powerhouse demon finished. As I first conceived it, the demon would have had to have stats in the 15 to 20+ range with three or four types of Special Damage (both Ranged and not), Armor, Fast, Cloak, several different Protections, and Perception (teleport) with Travel (teleport). I wanted it to be able to combine Fast with Teleport thinking that this would allow the demon to attack and move to the next target every round. I learned that fulfilling Need cured fatigue, and the Uber demon got a little closer to reality. (This is when I started asking the question about teleport and Special Damage). The demon was glorious, and completely broken.

But, I can still see a demon of similar attributes, but with a vastly scaled down amount of power. After all, who really wants to Contact, Summon, Bind and try to control a Power 20+ demon that can be anywhere at any time. It would take a hell of great roll-playing performance; gross amount of drugs and sacrifice, and even if the first two steps were somehow successful, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out who would most likely win that Binding roll, not to mention the horrible danger to Humanity the whole process would require.

So my new idea has boiled down to this. An Inconspicuous demon with one type of Special Damage (probably claw and fangs), Armor, Fast, Perception: Heightened Senses, Travel: Jump, Link, and maybe Armor and Fast for the Sorcerer to use as well. The Stamina and Lore around 9, Will and Power around 10. As for Need and Desire, they would probably have something to do with carnage and mayhem. Still a demon I would be very reluctant to try to Summon considering its Power and likely attitude, but I have the idea on the back burner just in case some other Sorcerer thinks of sending something similar against me.

Hello,

Z, don't ever worry about "offending" me. This is the tequila forum - when I tell ya something, it's because that's what I'm saying, not hiding "you're offending me" under something else.

If you really piss me off, I'll let you know. Until then, figure that I'm doing just fine and am very happy with you. Which is, in fact, the case.

Anyway, here are a couple of threads that I think you'll like: Very very powerful demons and how to keep them, Stat scaling in Sorcerer, and My/JL's game ("The Abyss Chronicles"). Do a search on "Veniamin" in this forum for some details about one of the demons I talk about in those threads, hands-down the most effective demon I've ever seen in a Sorcerer game.

There's a lot to think about in those, especially the role of such beings in the game as well as some unexpected points about their "size."

A couple points for now ...

1. I don't know what you mean by describing the larger demon concept as "broken." If you mean that it accorded with the rules but would have been unplayable or unfair to play in some way, then I strongly disagree. I wouldn't mind discussing that at all - but I really do need to know what you mean by the "broken."

Again, this is not a matter of offending me. It's a matter of you describing exactly what you would envision in play and why that would be bad.

At the moment, for instance, I am very puzzled about how you're interpreting Fast and Teleport, and why that would be any kind of problem. But I'm getting ahead of myself. I'll wait on your reply.

2. Now let's look at your li'l fellow:

An Inconspicuous demon with one type of Special Damage (probably claw and fangs), Armor, Fast, Perception: Heightened Senses, Travel: Jump, Link, and maybe Armor and Fast for the Sorcerer to use as well. The Stamina and Lore around 9, Will and Power around 10. As for Need and Desire, they would probably have something to do with carnage and mayhem.

Instead of “broken” I guess the better term would be repetitive and boring. The demon would have been just a mish-mash of “cool” abilities piled one atop another with only a bit of theme. Sure it would have had huge power, and been able to do a lot of different things, but practical? Effective? Definitely not. Kind of like using a jackhammer to do brain surgery.

Now, my initial idea for combining Fast and Teleport. As I read the description in the Sorcerer book for the Fast ability I saw that it allowed the user to take an extra action each round. My immediate thought was “If the demon was using Fast and it had the ability to Teleport, couldn’t the demon then Teleport with it’s “extra action” and attack with it’s normal action?” I imagined that demon Teleporting and attacking each and every round. One second it’s all over Thug #1, the next it’s 100 feet away taking the head off of Thug #2, and so on. That’s the best way I can explain it.

As for the critique of the demon I figured was a good compromise. Brilliant! Maybe I should summon it as is and name it Potato chip. It never really occurred to me to use the rules on lasting and action damage as a buffer to Banish or Punish a demon. I’ve also never considered pairing Daze with the passive Cloak of an Inconspicuous demon. In fact, I now realize that I’ve been limiting my choice of demon abilities to a rather narrow spectrum. Out of all the abilities in the book, I think that I’ve only actually used Armor, Boost, Cloak, Special Damage, Protection, Travel, Warp, Vitality, and Shadow. That leaves a whole bunch of abilities just sitting there waiting to be chosen. Either because I didn’t really understand them, or I just wanted to stick with the abilities I was used to. The best demon I’ve Bound so far was a little Power 4(+) familiar type Inconspicuous with Flight, Link, and Boost: Lore. I think it had one or two other abilities, but it never told my Sorcerer about those. It was a great little scout, and the four extra dice from the Boost were very helpful when it came to Contacting. Yet the little guy didn’t last very long, and it was the familiar’s demise that led me to thinking about effective combat demons.

Thanks for the list of threads to look at. I haven’t had the chance, but I get some good computer time this weekend so I’ll have a lot of reading to do.

Hiya,

Good thinking all 'round. I see your point about the "broken" stuff now, and you're right - when you read my posts on big demons in the cited threads, I think you'll see a lot of points to agree with.

You've noticed, I'm sure, that the imp demon was probably more fun because it was more fun for the GM to play, and hence had a lot more personality and a lot of little agendas and so forth. I wasn't there for your game, and I don't know that for sure, but little imp demons with three or four abilities are common in Sorcerer games, and people typically really enjoy them in play.

Final point, and a big one! You don't need Fast to have the demon teleport around and whack people upside the head one-two-three. When all is said and done, teleporting is just Travel, and Travel just means "covering distance." Therefore the demon can bamf around the room just as you describe without having to "take an action" for the teleport. I'm not sure where you got the idea it'd have to teleport, hit, teleport, hit, etc.

As I say, to be clear, it's just moving around the room using Travel. I don't care if it's teleporting, running on air, flying, or whatever - it can still move around as its Power would imply and doesn't need to abstain from attacking to do so.

The demon I presented above can do that. Thug 1, Thug 2, Thug 3, hit'em with three successive attacks, one per round. All the teleport does is make it possible for the thugs to be far apart from one another (one on the catwalk, one behind the barricade, one off to the left, e.g.).

So your perceived need for Fast is not necessary. It can already do what you want.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: I'm not sure where you got the idea it'd have to teleport, hit, teleport, hit, etc.

Hello,

H'm, I think the "action" term is what's causing a problem.

Since I consider movement to be part of actions in Sorcerer, "I run up and hit him!" is an action, if it seems to everyone to be in the same approximate time-scale of the other actions going on.

"Teleport" = "Run up" in every possible way except that it doesn't have to worry about gravity and most intervening objects. So it can be part of a stated action, not "an action" on its own.

Or to put it another way, "ability use" is not necessarily 1:1 with "action," although in many situations it might be.

Best,
Ron

It all becomes clear now.

Thanks