One of my players wanted a Demon who functioned like the time-twisting knife in Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, specifically its ability to reverse failure to try the task again or to try something different instead. (The more usual abilities, like turning things to sand or accelerating the user were easy.)

I've had some success mapping this with standard demon abilities (like Armor, Daze, Perception and Vitality) and then narrating the results appropriately, but it seems awfully awkward at times. Can anyone suggest an elegant way to map this sort of ability?

The "that didn't happen" inherent in PoP because of the Sands is tricky because it covers quite a bit of "stuff." Injuries done would be discarded, "rolls" would be taken back, movement/actions/statements would be undone. And then everyone except the Sorcerer would have to declare the same actions they previously took.

It almost seems like a combination of powers: frex, Vitality is the obvious "His sword never hit me" idea. Vitality + Daze would seem to be the best combo there, in that the Vitality restores dice, and the Daze removes the event (the sorcerer being injured) from the minds of the affected. Of course, the Vitality would also apply to everything else involved in the combat injured during that exchange, not just the Sorcerer.

Since you know what action the enemy is going to take before he does once you've "rewound", I'd say this would be a use of...hrm, I don't know. I've unfortunately never been very good at picking out these "actual uses of the weird powers" from the text in the book that others seem to be able to grasp so well.

So, that's my suggestion above, though it doesn't cover everything, nor the effects of it very well, IMO. The way I see it working best is to have everyone roll normally, and if you don't like your rolls results...what? You can roll an extra number of dice equal to the demon's Power each time you activate the ability? With activations for any given action limited only by the demon's Stamina and attendant Need being filled.

Because, of course, each activation makes it more and more hungry until you feed it more sand by fighting and slaying more of the sand-possessed...which also makes it more a powerful (and less controllable) demon.

I just finished playing PoP and the idea is a very cool one. Additionally, the whole idea that you are telling someone the story of what you did (events that never actually took place...now) works easily with Sorcerer, particularly if you run out-of-sequence games as explained in &Sword, and use Destiny as well.

It's alot like the angel ability Recall. I'm not sure what would be the effect if you let demons have it...

sirogit wrote: It's alot like the angel ability Recall. I'm not sure what would be the effect if you let demons have it...

Hello,

This sort of thing is way easier than it looks. All you need is a standard defense roll based on the ability Perception.

If the demon uses the ability, then it's a "full defense" action based on Power (perception), hence +2 dice.

If it succeeds (i.e., goes first before the attack or whatever), then play it out as if the attack succeeded, then "blinked back." Very simple.

If the attack hits first, then the ability failed for whatever reason.

The whole point is not to try to simulate the "it worked, no it didn't," using in-game linear thinking. Sorcerer, she no work that way.

Best,
Ron

Ron,

I assume "attack" above can be replaced with "any action".

Also, the thing about the Sands is they let you test a variety of actions to see what works, without fear of "that being it."

ex1: "Can I reach that rope if I jump to it?" [try] "Yep, made it." or "Nope, can't...rewind."

ex2: "I wonder who is hiding around that corner?" [walk around corner] "Ah, good, no one." or "Shit! And they saw me! Rewind!"

Does that "work" with the application of Perception to a specific roll? In that there are really three outcomes: success of the action, failure of the action, and "knowing" the results of the action independent of its success or failure (and then deciding what you want to happen).

For example, you go into a bar and confront someone about something; you get the info from him, but he will tell his buddies about you and make things more difficult. What do you do? Rewind so that it never happened: you still have the info, but he has no clue that he gave it to you.

I'm assuming this would work with the Perception roll as stands?

Hello,

Also, I presume that the person who concieved of the demon would want the ability to rewind more than a single action. We start a combat we've gone back and forth a few exchanges and now I decide I want to start the whole thing over or only go back two or three exchanges out of 5. I don't think the Perception proposal covers this condition.

Jesse

greyorm wrote:
For example, you go into a bar and confront someone about something; you get the info from him, but he will tell his buddies about you and make things more difficult. What do you do? Rewind so that it never happened: you still have the info, but he has no clue that he gave it to you.

jburneko wrote: Also, I presume that the person who concieved of the demon would want the ability to rewind more than a single action. We start a combat we've gone back and forth a few exchanges and now I decide I want to start the whole thing over or only go back two or three exchanges out of 5. I don't think the Perception proposal covers this condition.

Thanks, all!

Ron, I like. I'll keep most of the other abilities to use as backup so the thing seems more reliable, but that looks very solid.

jburneko wrote: I presume that the person who concieved of the demon would want the ability to rewind more than a single action.

Michael S. Miller wrote: it sounds to me like these interpretations lead to a "get out of Consequences free" power, which Sorcerer simply does not and should not support. The basic premise of the game is that every ounce of Power has its Price. Something that allows me to get something for nothing is out of place. Perhaps if the demon demanded its very nasty Need each and every time the power was used, it would fly, but otherwise, it sounds like someone who doesn't want to engage the Premise.

Here she is:

The Dagger of Time (In my campaign it's called The Antiquity)
Type: Object, Desire: Confusion, Need: Killing(Often misinterpreted as Sand)
Stamina: 7, Will: 8, Lore: 7, Power: 8
Abilities: Confuse, Daze, Fast(conferred), Hint, Perception: What Would Have Happened, Special Damage(Lethal): Conversion to Sand, Vitality(conferred).
Telltale: The sand stored in the hilt's glass runs upward.

Okay, so the thing can see ahead in time and use the information to warn its master, who in turn perceives and probably believes that what he saw was real and has happened already, but that the dagger rewound the clock to the present time. This description models the mechanical action best, but the thing may actually rewind time, who knows?

The most freqently used power is the Perception. Out of combat, it can be rolled to get information and/or bonus dice on almost any task, as you figure out what won't work or discover surprises ahead of time. In combat, the Demon can use it to take Full Defense actions on its master's behalf(so nasty!).

The Special Damage is used in a fairly standard way. Hint as well. Fast is the 'slow time' ability.

Confuse, Daze and Vitality are used to cover the occasional failures of the Perception, and to mimic the dagger's other minor time-twists. The dagger is not above Confusing or Dazing its master to reinforce the illusion of its own infallibility!

In case anyone's interested, the poor sucker attached to this thing is:

Adan
Stamina: 6(Street-Raised,Trained Soldier)
Will: 3(Zest For Life)
Lore: 1(Naive)
Humanity: 5
Past: 6(Prince+Outlaw)
Price: -1(Untrusting: Affects social rolls with non-allies)
Telltale: His shadow and reflection do not always match his own movements.
Binding Strength: 1, in The Antiquity's favor.

The player originally conceived him as 'equal parts Aladdin and Spider-Man' in a HERO game. Some years later, he immediately identified the unnamed 'Prince' of Persia as Adan, and jumped at the chance to run him through a Sword and Sorcerer campaign, picking up after Sands of Time left off.

edited to specify conferrence of abilities.

Ron Edwards wrote: Hello,

This sort of thing is way easier than it looks. All you need is a standard defense roll based on the ability Perception.

If the demon uses the ability, then it's a "full defense" action based on Power (perception), hence +2 dice.

If it succeeds (i.e., goes first before the attack or whatever), then play it out as if the attack succeeded, then "blinked back." Very simple.

If the attack hits first, then the ability failed for whatever reason.

The whole point is not to try to simulate the "it worked, no it didn't," using in-game linear thinking. Sorcerer, she no work that way.

Best,
Ron

Hello,

Whoops, missed that last question.

Djarb, if the Full Defense goes before the incoming attack, then it already has a higher die, by definition - hence we know that it defends successfully against that attack.

That seems 100% suited to the "re-do" special effect, because as soon as the dice hit the table, we know that the attack/whatever that the demon is affecting isn't going to work. We know that the demon ability has it cornered.

Best,
Ron

Michael S. Miller wrote: it sounds to me like these interpretations lead to a "get out of Consequences free" power, which Sorcerer simply does not and should not support. The basic premise of the game is that every ounce of Power has its Price. Something that allows me to get something for nothing is out of place.