Is my premise good enough? I've wanted to do an ancient Egypt game for years and failed on more than one occasion. The big problem is premise. Egypt is so tightly wound up you can't go adventuring in the common sense, rogues, misfits, freaks, foreigners, people with (urrgh) weapons - are deported, or have their noses cut off!

But I recently found something that might give me that rationale I've been searching for - the Kap. This was a royal school attended by princes (their were lots of princes at a time). And gifted or promising commoners from across the kingdom were invited to attend too. These grew up with the princes and became life-long friends and colleagues (one hoped) that could later be depended on should any of the princes inherit the throne. This sounds like a great place to start up player-characters! Companions of the Prince.

In my premise, priests could have visions, and in dreams identify crucial men for the next generation, the invisible pillars upon whom the state must rest. They are invited to attend the Kap as little boys and are bound by oath of fealty to the new pharaoh of that generation.

I reckon there's a lot to do if your an insider (for a change, most rationales seem to run PCs as outcasts of one flavour or another). At this period why can't everyone work magic associated with their professions (farmers healing herbs, painters paint curses and wards etc.)? I know that in the Old Kingdom priests were part-time. We can envisage everyone being a part-time priest. Grow in your profession, grow in your priestly status, duties and powers. The chief scribe of Egypt was the high priest of Thoth, for example. By extension that painter might develop his powers and skills to become high priest of Ptah.

As a setting premise, I see these Kap recruits fighting any hidden enemies of pharaoh and the state, from snake cults to nomad incursions, corrupt officials to gangsters, royal feuds to demons, ancient curses on villages and so on. Maybe a little like Feng Shui's Secret War (yes, including lots of unarmed combat, stick fighting and melee combat). As an incentive, maybe the health of the pharaoh and the health of the kingdom are the same thing. And the 'power' of the player characters is bound up in there too. Egypt suffers - pharaoh suffers - the PC's suffer. Ouch!

In the final analysis the PCs become loyal, unswerving servants of pharaoh, growing in power, status and responsibility while they fight every possible enemy of Egypt. Success brings character growth and long life. Failure brings material poverty and spiritual powerlessness. Their ability to fight the terrors has gone. Pharaoh is dead, his replacement is on the throne, he has his own Companions looking out for him and his land.

Is this premise strong enough? I know its wordy enough!!

Paul,

You've got plenty of setting and situation, both of which I like a lot. You don't really have much "premise" if we're talking about the highly focused version of the term used in Narrativist play.

Think in terms of human passions and conflicts that cannot help but arise in such a setting/situation. Notice the important issue inherent in the setting: the students at the Kap include commoners. Class issue strikes - you're "elite," now, right, as a Kap student? Or is this the only way that the lowlies can get any slack at all, if the Kap grads stick up for them when it comes to policy?

Immediately we see each Kap student buffeted by this choice, which of course no one mentions or perhaps even comprehends, but which is going to be the issue at hand in all concerns.

Individual takes on the issue, per player, are welcome. Different permutations on how it is expressed (local situations; conflicts) arise based on what character creation and GM ingenuity yield.

Best,
Ron

I'd play it in a heartbeat.

I like it. I'd play it.

Sounds quite intresting...

What is the PC's each independly create their characters, describe their backgrounds (son of a soldier, priest acolyte, sorcerer in training). Next, they each describe a what it is about their Prince that makes them loyal to him. From these independently arived at angles, the prince can be created.

The Soldier apreciates the young prince's Valor and Strength, the Priest his ability to Convey Truth, and the Sorcerer his Whiles.

You already have the outline for a Clever, Brave and Honest guy

The Prince gets 1 Virtue which attracts his followers (the PC's) and one Flaw- an area each PC can help him imporve in.

So in addition to the above, the prince might also have:

Acts First, Thinks Later
Dobts the Gods
Fears the Unknown


Warrior - Teach the prince level headed thinking in crisis

Priest- Teaches the prince to trust the state religion, so one day he might lead it

Sorcerer- introduces theprince to the mysteries of the universe, and shows him that Knowledge dispells fear.




As for mechanics, ZENOBIA has a very tidy resolution system which I am quite fond of.

Mithras wrote:
Is my premise good enough?

I knew I'd come a cropper with 'premise'! Ah well!

Ron, your call to add that layer of emotional involvement is well received. The fact they are commoners is a strange dichotomy in a universe where royal blood is everything. My idea was to begin the game after 'graduation', but why? Aren't there great issues up for grabs in such a pressure cooker? The game starts when you join the Kap, not when you leave it.

Bailywolf - your idea of letting the players 'build the pharaoh' fits in perfectl with the concept. How can you not want to defend, support and assist your own creation. Now that's a personal stake!

And Mike - I wasn't thinking of a simulationist game this time! Gorgeous to look at, but yes, essentially a big balancing act of some nature.

Hmm, I like it lots. The Kap might be exploited on a number of levels - surely, at least some of the previous Kap would return as ranking office-holders and teachers of the present generation of the Kap. So you could actually have characters of distinct age cohorts interacting directly with another, which could be exploited for a Relationship Map and the extraction of personal dilemmas. One might also expect a lot of politicking about the next batch of Kap selections - what happens if one brother is selected and another refused? Are there graduation ceremonies?

While I would be distressed to see this idea turn into Yet Another Teen Movie, it would allow quite an age range of characters.

I imagine that control of the Kap is a major political battle. You control the minds of the youth, you control the future.

Also, what about your prince becoming Pharoah? You've mentioned multiple princes vying for the role, so how is one selected? There could be numerous advenures involving attempting to get your prince to the throne, and protecting him from those trying to kill or discredit him for his spot in line for the throne, as it were. I'd imagine that the closer a prince is to the throne, the more powerful his companions are (with the most power given to the companions of the actual Pharoah).

Just my $0.02 anyway...

Daniel

Great idea, also be aware that Khemet was also deeply involved in the tin trade between Greece and Eastern Europe, many countries of Asia Minor were also captured as colonies. Plenty of room for war, strife and intrigue. Also you may wish to look into the conflicts and conspiracies between the aristocracy and the Hykyos peoples who later moved into the area.

I could even see the priests or servants sent to acquire the new students being an adventure unto itself, even before getting to the school.

Chris

I think a lot could be done with this setting. How historical do you want it to be? There's some issues to consider.

Student characters would be age 7 to 15, exclusively male. I don't consider either of these to be bad things by the way! Very strict discipline, lots of reading, writing and math and a sense that being there, no matter how much the tutors or other students abused you, would be a -privilege!-

What time period? Amenhotep III's reign (1403-1354 B.C.), was a 40 year old "Golden Age" and there's great source material out there. Having the players model the pharoah might be fun, but on the other hand, providing some in-depth setting including signature characters like a "good" pharoah or "wicked" one could make it easier for people who don't really have a sense of Egyptian history.

One of my all time favorite books was Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game". It was a brilliant portrayal of a boy's struggle/Rite of Passage genre and Harry Potter is another good example of what can be done with young male characters in a school setting.

I think an exceptional, exceptional RPG can be made out of this. I wish I'd thought of it myself!

I've not considered specific period too much. Maybe the Old Kingdom (but the institution of the royal academy dates from much later), maybe a later more martial age. Not sure. With Egypt, though, a great many things stay the same no matter what the era.

Or I could portray the advantages and disadvantages of half a dozen different periods in Egyptian history, with GMs picking one that sounds like a go-er.

I know I told Mike it would be more N that Sim, but to be honest, half the fun of writing a game like this is providing huge dollops of shiny setting, lots and lots of fascinating, colourful background to a) get everyone into the spirit, b) get people playing in a different place and time from the ttraditions of today. There's no way I can't make it gloriously epic!!

Nothing specifically against Narrativism in creating a detailed setting. In fact, I'd like to see a Narrativist game that was setting heavy. What you could do is figure out how to allow the stories created to be all about exploring the marvellous setting.

Here's an idea. Places have certain Significances. The characters gain vitality through experiencing the significance of places. Kind of a Narrativist vesion of the Feng Shui mechanic. These places can be the subject of Invasions, and plots dealing with guardians, etc. Instead of just trying to take over places, though, the character can only get the vitality bonus through having an experience related to the place's significance. It's up to the player to come up with an appropriate experience for their character, and get it played out.

So, forex, the GM comes up with an Oasis called the Well of Thought. The significance of the place is that it is where the Pharoh Aknatun came up with his idea for worship of the Sun god. It is know to inspire great thoughts, essentially. So when the players arrive (notionally to look there for an artifact called Ahmets Scarab), the players can come up with some sort of great thoughts for their characters to have while there in order to pick up the vitality of the place.

Create a jillion of these with preset significances, and the players can drive their adventures towards whichever site makes sense for their characters (Th phrase "Field Trip" keeps poping into my head). The Kap can then be a sort of campaign hub where characters always return so that interaction is continuous, and the political side of the game can occur. Perhaps the character cannot get the benefit of the vitality of a place until he has returned to the Kap to discuss its significance with teachers and other students. A mechanical system like this would drive the exploration combined with Narration.

Then you just have to pose threats to Egypt regularly, and the player has to decide how much his character will invest his vitality in defense. These are narrated as to how the "investments" occur. The total of all the players' donations (plus the Pharoh's standard bonus) decides the outcome of the threat. Have these threats ocur when the characters are out in the field so that you get instant juxtaposition of the exploration mechanic with the threat mechanic.

Play this like the board game Republic of Rome for a gamist twist. A character who gets to 100 vitality becomes the next Pharoh. That is assuming that Egypt isn't destroyed in the process, and the character survives to that point. Instant conflict between personal goals and group goals. For a more group effort, perhaps you can team up to put your own candidate in office or something. For a time limit on the campaign, assume that there is another student that will gain the required vitality after ten sessions or some such, requiring the players to get there before the NPC does. Make him a nasty bastard, to drive the competition.

BTW, as to era, I think that ancient Egypt is one of those places that would lend itself to a semi-historical syncretic vision. So, include everything you know from all eras. Have an upper, middle, and lower kingdom for conflict (perhaps each with a Kap, or maybe only one). Have this fictitious Egypt be bordered or have relations with by Kush, Ethiopia, the Chaldea, Assyria, Sumeria, Rome, Carthage, other ancient African, Mid-Eastern, and European countries.

Heck, go with Thor Hyredal, and assume that the naval adventurers of the day (supported by magic) have reached all the nations of the earth. Adventures could involve trade delegations to China, or South America. Where these things overlap, just push some to the side, and make room for all of them on the map. Forget the actual history, and just inject all the cool things from ancient times that you've read about. Hanging gardens in Babylon, Greek influences in northern Egypt, Karnak, Pyramids, Necropoli, all side by side.

Florid. Yeah, go with that. Expand the upper and middle classes unrealistically (but leave the underclass just as crushed underfoot, if not more so). Devalue gold worse than a Monty Haul D&D campaign. Cover everything wth it. And encrust everything with precious stone. After all, the game is not about individual wealth, but managing to keep the golden age alive for Egypt as a whole. Social problems, Political problems, International relations, Magical problems.

Any of this sound good?

Mike

Steady on Mike - I'm supposed to be working on this thing, not you!!!

That's a lot to chew on. Combining lots of historical periods into one semi-ficticious era is a very good idea. That is one way for me to get everything in that I want. And peppering the setting with narrativist links is a good idea too, although not something I've done before. So essentially, these places/situations are merely catalysts for personal elements that the player characters bring along with them?? On their own they may not be of any use, they 'come alve' when integrated with the personality, backstory and motivations of characters. Is this right? Sort of like Alexander the Great and his revelatory trip to the Siwa Oasis (he came away convinced he was the son of Zeus Ammon...).

Lots to think about!

Mithras wrote:
Steady on Mike - I'm supposed to be working on this thing, not you!!!

That's a lot to chew on. Combining lots of historical periods into one semi-ficticious era is a very good idea. That is one way for me to get everything in that I want.

And peppering the setting with narrativist links is a good idea too, although not something I've done before. So essentially, these places/situations are merely catalysts for personal elements that the player characters bring along with them?? On their own they may not be of any use, they 'come alve' when integrated with the personality, backstory and motivations of characters. Is this right? Sort of like Alexander the Great and his revelatory trip to the Siwa Oasis (he came away convinced he was the son of Zeus Ammon...).

Mike Holmes wrote:
historical syncretic vision. So, include everything you know from all eras. Have an upper, middle, and lower kingdom for conflict (perhaps each with a Kap, or maybe only one). Have this fictitious Egypt be bordered or have relations with by Kush, Ethiopia, the Chaldea, Assyria, Sumeria, Rome, Carthage, other ancient African, Mid-Eastern, and European countries.

Mike Holmes wrote:
civilization). So, I can't imagine anyone having problems with such a mish-mosh; obviously it's not historical, It's got working magic.

Exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. Enable the players to tell stories about their characters using the setting as a catalyst. But keep in mind

"Dear Mr H Imhotep, you have secured a place..." Delivered by an ibis.


As to why heroes are so often outcasts and misfits, I suspect it's because that's the Great American Hero - or one of the main types, at least. Individual being greater than establishment and all that.

...uh, yeah, whatever.

"I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America."

— Alexis de Tocqueville

http://www.rom.on.ca/egypt/case/society/who.html

This is a kinda "who's who" of known figures in the Old Kingdom. The details are pretty sparse so they could be used with a lot of freedom, I think. Rest of the site is worth a browse.

Gareth, assuming that there is some sort of glut of overproduction of games that mangle history twisting together all of the facts of certain periods, what would you suggest as a solution? Go with historical? As if that hasn't been done to death as well? Ars Magica did about as good a job as you can do with the whole historical, but with magic, concept that I can imagine. And I'm just advocating that Paul produce what I'd like to see. Obviously you don't want tho see this. Oh, well. I don't believe that you can come up with an argument for one setting being better than the other a priori.

I also see a difference between a system that emulates a society that believes in magic and one that actually has magic. IIRC, you've argued against this in the past, so we may have to agree to disagree here. Again, I'm just arguing for what I'd like to see, or how I'd do it.

As for where the players would get the information from, you didn't read closely enough. I'm suggesting that the text of the game provide as much information on the setting as possible. The player should have to come up with none of that. The GM I suppose can create new places if he likes to, but what I'd like to see, optimally, is enough stuff in the text to play several entire games without ever having to make something up.

What the players would make up would be their character's reaction to the significance of the places visited. When I say reaction, I include the idea of whole mini-plots, or anything else the player wants to come up with while at the sites. Perhaps he sould discuss it with the GM, or perhaps he should be given some directorial power, I don't know. Just some method by which the player can create an appropriate bit of story that relates to the places the characters visit.

So, no homework, just some thought about the character as pertains to ideas provided by places visited, as provided by the GM (who gets them from the text). You could do this historically if you wanted by doing the research as GM and disincluding "unrealistically" co-located stuff. If Paul wanted to be really generous, he could give time frames for the GM on each location so that the GM could incorporate them in a fashion that corresponds to history, and the GM could run in ehatever time he wanted.

But that's not the premise of this game as I see it (of course Paul will have to decide that in the end). I see the Premise having to do with the majesty of gargantuan monuments inspiring heroes to great heights and the like. This could be done entirely in a fantasy setting, I suppose, but the advantage of using real world sites is to tap into whatever real world knowledge the players have to make them seem more majestic. And for source material for Paul to write from.

I often find that the monumnets of the real world are much more impressive than those in fantasy worlds, often due to their actual scale, if not the context of them having been constructed by real people. Consider the Great Wall of China. It's estimated that as many as a million people worked on that project at a time. That's just staggering.

If you want to write a game that focused on how the progress of actual history impacts the characters, I can see that being done, if done very carefully. If Paul goes with my concept, here, that leaves you free to make that game yourself, Gareth (heck, I'd probably help you write it if you'd let me). OTOH, maybe he'll be persuaded by your desire to have a historically accurate game. Paul?

Mike

contracycle wrote:
"I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America."

Intersting site covering Memphis, tho not deeply:
http://touregypt.net/featurestories/memphis.htm

Tales of Egyptian magic:
http://touregypt.net/featurestories/magic.htm

Includes: "Pressing the magician further, Djed-djedi told the pharaoh that it could only be brought to him by the eldest of the triplets, who were still in the belly of Raddjedet, wife of a wab priest of Ra. These children, the magician prophesied, would inherit the kingship of the land of Egypt."

An article on offerings procedure and the dead:
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/offering.htm

An interesting page which compares the construction of the pyamids to an Amnish barn-raising and takes a stabe at their social impact.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/explore/builders.html

This looks interesting:
http://www.sis.gov.eg/pharo/html/front.htm

point out why a certain stereotypical hero is portrayed so often. I doubt he was commenting on it's validity, anyhow.

Mike,

What concerns me is much the kind of thing you mention, where the monuments in the RW are often more impressive than their fantasy equivalents. There's quite a lot of international traffic in this period, probably greek or minoan raiders, phoenicians, the hyksos and sundry other desert tribes, etc etc. I think we often introduce these aspects of "variety" because we don;t understand how varied historical cultures were. I don't mean a strict adherence to every historical detail, though, partly because this is manifestly implausible. But on the other hand history offers an Other World that is infinitely realised; we can find so much that frankly we would never have been able, even had the time, to imagine.

One of the links I posted above discusses the raising of the pyramids in terms of the effect - socialising, enculturating - that the sheer physical process of construction would probably have had. When we do funky aliens from space stuff or magic to make such majestic architecture. It loses its impact, becomes just another technology. It would be inteersting, for example, to do a game sprread across the contsruction of a pyramid, the construction itself perhaps serving as a metaphor for time and growth in the backdrop. Lots of interesting ways to get good effects out of this sort of thing, I feel, without muddying the waters. In that regard, I would be much more interested in a serious attempt at a historical work than trying to produce another all-things-to-everyone setting. Personal preference.

Thanks for the links contracycle, all useful stuff.

My stand-point: I'd love to do a serious, gritty historical RPG set in a very very focussed and 'closed system' representation of Old Kingdom Egypt. No flashy magic, but it works (invisibly). The world is both small and large (spiritually and monumentally, not geographically...).

But does anyone want to play such a game? I believe such hard-ass histories are best run as short campaigns, where the characters can be almost pre-generated by the GM to mesh well with the setting and the themes being explored. I've run such games (infrequently) but always find that 'nifties' of one sort or another are way more popular with my players (and seemingly everyone elses).

So what to do? I appreciate Mike's idea of 'including all the best bits' and it IS something I tried with ZENOBIA and an earlier incarnation of a bronze age game that I've worked on. For this game, however, I want to go for an equivalence of historicity. It must feel like a single world, a closed system where everything makes sense and the borders of the world seem to stop on the edge of the desert.

So fictionalizing aspects of the setting is the way I will be going. Drawing from earlier and later periods, but piling it up to create a 200% Egyptian experience, multi-layered with texture as well as meaning and theme. Magic is a good way to do this, but not something I will overdo.

I'm going to seriously play down non-Egyptians. To the Nile Valley occupants they were barely human, playing no part in the scheme of things.

One final thing - I do love Egyptian culture. I've got a huge library on the subject and studied it intently for 5 years (even going as far as to write a fifth of a book on Egyptian religion). And I went there in 1996 (yay!!).

BTW: using the building of a pyramid as a campaign metaphor is a wonderful idea. The Egyptians were very clued in to that way of thinking, everything resonated with other aspects of life and existence. Everything was a metaphor for something else. A lovely idea!

contracycle wrote:

point out why a certain stereotypical hero is portrayed so often. I doubt he was commenting on it's validity, anyhow.

I don't think it is portrayed often, really - most American heroes, I think, come with all sorts of social validity - being Hollywood-beautiful being among their chief features. I am continually fascinated by the huge gulf that lies between America's perception of itself and everyone elses, is all.

Mithras wrote: My stand-point: I'd love to do a serious, gritty historical RPG set in a very very focussed and 'closed system' representation of Old Kingdom Egypt. No flashy magic, but it works (invisibly). The world is both small and large (spiritually and monumentally, not geographically...).

But does anyone want to play such a game? I believe such hard-ass histories are best run as short campaigns, where the characters can be almost pre-generated by the GM to mesh well with the setting and the themes being explored. I've run such games (infrequently) but always find that 'nifties' of one sort or another are way more popular with my players (and seemingly everyone elses).

Epoch wrote:
Well, my viewpoint is almost totally valueless, considering how far I am from any audience niche that I'm aware of, ...

Epoch wrote:
This is your second unprovoked attempt to draw an interesting thread into Permenant Floating Internet Flamewar #63. Please stop. Or at least do it in some other thread.

Interesting article over here

http://www.eclipse-chasers.com/akhet.html

detailing a theory that the "horizon" in Egyptian mythology is in fact a reference to an eclipse. Interesting stuff but way over my head; v. interesting argument over the role of stelae as references to the "limbs" of the moon during an eclipse.

Mike Holmes wrote:

Well, we are at least a niche of two. What you described is very much what I personally envisioned (I especially like your "mythic" concept).

Make that three. I initially wasn't really drawn in, but the more posts and a little rereading makes the Kap more intriguing.

Part of it stems from a campaign setting where players are trying to save Atlantis (Thera) from destruction. But that's neither here nor there.

As far as playing the game– it's the invisible magic that got me. Keep developing the Kap, and keep posting your progress. I would enjoy playtesting it.

contracycle wrote:

Epoch wrote:
This is your second unprovoked attempt to draw an interesting thread into Permenant Floating Internet Flamewar #63. Please stop. Or at least do it in some other thread.

I have been thinking about this disturbing slander for a couple of days. I'm afraid I see no requirement to claim to see the Emperors New Clothes on this 'board; I was not aware that being an American patriot was a requirement of being a poster. If this is indeed the case you'll have to bar me.

I'm also to blame Clinton. Apollogies, I should've left it alone.

Gareth, nobody is saying you can't have an opinion on political subjects, I believe. What we're worried about is this forum's very high signal-to-noise ratio dropping through the introduction of arguments that tend to cause tremendous friction and flamewars on other fora. Possibly an over-reaction, but we're just spoiled by how good the discussion is here.

I just hope we can get this thread back on the topic of Paul's game concept. Again, thanks Gareth for all the great links. I found the following quote from the description of Memphis to be inspiring:

"Enormous as are the extent and antiquity of this city, in spite of the frequent change of governments whose yoke it has borne, and the great pains more than one nation has been at to destroy it,…to mutilate the statues which adorned it….these ruins still offer to the eye of the beholder a mass of marvels which bewilder the senses and which the most skillful pens must fail to describe."


Mike

Hey, random thought: did ancient Egypt in the rough time period we're talking about have relations with any foreign powers? I've never heard of any kind of ancient Egypt/other nation relations anywhere besides Exodus, but surely they weren't that isolated.

If so, an alternative/addition to playing students/graduates of the Kap might be to play some kind of diplomat from outside Egypt or someone in the retinue of such a diplomat. It could, again, be a way to exist outside of the highly stratified part of Egyptian society.

Also, you could easily see envoys from other powers having interest in either the affairs of state high up in the Egyptian government or in dealing with the kind of menaces to humanity/horrors that someone suggested for a more "mythic" game.

If we're going with the whole "all historical periods rolled into one fictitious era" thing, then there's lots of room for a gigantic alliance with Rome. Hell, one or two of their most promising sons might even get invited to study at the school (and thus become a character option).

You could highlight all the differences in culture, language, military styles, and all that.

Mr. Sullivan, yes, the Egyptians did often have massive foreign relations including conquering parts of the middle-east occasionally. Egypt expanded and contracted quite a bit in pre-Roman times. Given that this occurred over a couple of millenia makes it unsurprising, but there were a few Pharohs in particular that did a lot in that arena (Ramses the Great being an obvious example).

OTOH, Paul is going for a more historical setting and has mentioned specifically that he would prefer to keep the outsiede world minimized. Still, that doesn't mean there wouldn't be any diplomacy. I'm still seeing a potential for another whole game here, though. The massive diplomacy thing would fit better into your mythic vision, I'd think.

I found this site that deals with a lot of interesting alternate historical theories (probably mostly bunk, but fun, nonetheless):

http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/amyst_1.htm

Many deal with Egypt if only in part.

Mike

Epoch wrote:
Hey, random thought: did ancient Egypt in the rough time period we're talking about have relations with any foreign powers

If so, an alternative/addition to playing students/graduates of the Kap might be to play some kind of diplomat from outside Egypt

Mike Holmes wrote:
Mr. Sullivan, yes, the Egyptians did often have massive foreign relations including conquering parts of the middle-east occasionally. Egypt expanded and contracted quite a bit in pre-Roman times. Given that this occurred over a couple of millenia makes it unsurprising, but there were a few Pharohs in particular that did a lot in that arena (Ramses the Great being an obvious example).

OTOH, Paul is going for a more historical setting and has mentioned specifically that he would prefer to keep the outsiede world minimized. Still, that doesn't mean there wouldn't be any diplomacy. I'm still seeing a potential for another whole game here, though. The massive diplomacy thing would fit better into your mythic vision, I'd think.

Mithras wrote:
Mmmm, in this era it was common for princes and kings to send representatives to the Egyptian court (if my memory serves me right).

Computer ate my post … garrgh! So I’ll try again! One aspect I’ve not mentioned is the big Egyptian Order versus Chaos thing. Chaos (Nun) was there at the start of time, and the first piece of land became the first piece of Order (Ma’at). This rising from the waters was probably inspired by the annual innundation. But Egyptians saw everything as a battle to keep Chaos at bay. I believe it was regarded as a miasmic entity at the edge of the world. All of the Egyptian rituals of pyramids, coronations, births, initiation, marriages, death etc were part of stability, order, Ma’at. So anything that harms these cosmic institutions will feed the encroachment of Chaos.

This is a nice, cool, pure fantasy aspect. Shit – if it all starts breaking down, the dead might not die, the sun might not rise, the Nile might not flood, etc. etc. The Egyptian universe is a great big machine.

Note that Apophis, a demon, is an agent of Chaos, trying to slay Ra the Sun god just before dawn every morning. He always fails and the sun always rises.

I want my Egyptian kap students to feel this incredible sense of machinistic logic, and a real fear that if they don’t stop this cult from summoning the demon Apu Tib, then plants will start shrinking back into the earth never to rise again, and the waters of the Nile will turn to blood. The stars might start to go out and the moon fade away to nothing…

Support the status quo!!!!!!!!!!

I got here a little late but I do think this is an excellent idea. There's just so much rich Egyptian mythology and history to draw from--and your idea of the Kap is dead-on perfect.

I very much did like Mike's idea of Place (hell, I liked all of Mike's ideas). At any rate, you've got a game that deserves a heavy setting narrativist or not.

I think it's brilliant.

As for the mechanist aspect you mentioned: it struck me that a mechanic where one success builds on another might be an interesting way of getting in character (i.e. you could sort of store success points from one resolution to spend on the next). Maybe you could use a timer to sort of simulate a machine-like clock winding down (the success points drain out).

-Marco

Found this HW-ish comment:

The king's identification with Ra was not merely a symbol of power, but a magical act. The Egyptians held that the classic stories of the gods happened in a primeval time, and that the energy of a god at
this time could be tapped into through ritually identifying oneself with him. Once the connection between a person and a god had been
established in this way, it was possible for the person to use the power of the god for his own ends. The king climbed the stairs of the Temple of Morning at precisely dawn each day after a ritual bath, symbolizing Ra's (and therefore his) daily rebirth from the primordial waters. Since the king symbolized Ra, all his subjects always addressed him in the same way one would address Ra. They
believed that this constant reinforcement actually endowed the king with the power to act as the god. During war, the king and other magicians performed rituals that linked the adversary to the demon Apophis, whom Ra slew. If the king was linked to Ra and the enemy was linked to Apophis, it was considered certain that the power of the myth would ensure the destruction of the enemy.

Mike Holmes wrote:
http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/amyst_1.htm

Many deal with Egypt if only in part.