Topic: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
Started by: ejh
Started on: 10/7/2004
Board: Publishing
On 10/7/2004 at 2:42am, ejh wrote:
Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
I understand that you cannot copyright game rules as such, only the particular written expressions thereof.
But I'm thinking about courtesy and respect, not the law.
I have a bee in my bonnet about writing up some kind of narrativist engine for an existing game that I like.
There is a longshot chance that it might actually be published (it would not really be an indie RPG, because it would deal intimately with an existing setting, so I would have to publish it, if at all, through the company which owns the rights to that setting. But I've talked with them briefly and they might be open to it.)
Now, there are some mechanics/concepts I just want to *steal* to use in this game. I want something like Nine Worlds's muses. Something a *lot* like them. They rock my world. I want to use conflict resolution mechanics very similar to The Questing Beast, but with more tie-in to the specific setting involved. Things like that.
But should I be "stealing" this stuff? I don't mean legally, I mean ethically. I want to do right by the designers of wonderful games I enjoy. Question to the people out there who've written an indie game -- when does homage become ripoff? Or does it ever?
What think ye?
On 10/7/2004 at 4:32am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
Hello,
We've discussed this many times at the Forge. The consensus seems to be that citation is highly valued by most publishers here.
Speaking for myself, someone could lift the system for Sorcerer whole cloth for their game. If they have some sentence in there about "thanks to Ron Edwards, author of Sorcerer" or some such thing, then I consider that both courteous and mutually beneficial.
Best,
Ron
On 10/7/2004 at 4:34am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
Ha! Found the threads.
How protective are you of your game ideas?
Please note the internal links within that thread; they're important.
Best,
Ron
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 3525
On 10/7/2004 at 7:17am, Peter Nordstrand wrote:
Re: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
Hi,
ejh wrote: But should I be "stealing" this stuff? I don't mean legally, I mean ethically. I want to do right by the designers of wonderful games I enjoy.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but what about just asking for permission?
Cheers,
On 10/7/2004 at 12:01pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
Hiya,
Peter, I think the key point is that "permission" doesn't apply. I literally do not own the resolution mechanics for Sorcerer, Trollbabe, and Elfs, and therefore cannot grant permission or withhold it.
To ask for and to receive permission would be entering a pleasant illusion. People would certainly feel good about it, but it would be based on falsity, and if the permission (given or withheld) were ever placed under any pressure, its significance would vanish like a pricked soap bubble.
I hope people follow up on the threads I referenced. They're kind of a big deal.
Best,
Ron
On 10/7/2004 at 1:24pm, Vaxalon wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
If you look at the published, non-indie games out there, (DnD, WoD, GURPS, etc) you will almost never see credit given where it's due, to games that influenced them. They don't have to, and it's not in their interest to do so because it's a corporate, highly competitive market.
Letting the reader know that you got your ideas from other games that came before you is a wonderful courtesy, something that some people expect and everyone appreciates.
On 10/7/2004 at 9:17pm, madelf wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
Y'know, I always wondered... when it comes to attributing stuff to some other game that inspired you, or from which you used a piece of the mechanic, or whatever... if you were to do the "nice thing" and say "I got this idea from Game X"... could that be potentially opening yourself up to a trademark infringement suit?
I mean, generally the name of a particular game or game system is going to be trademarked. And you can't use someone's trademark without permission, except under certain (and dangerously vague IMO) conditions.
So if some hot-headed company owner decided you were profiting from his trademark by mentioning in the intro of your book that elements of it were inspired by his game, he could theoretically sue over it. I don't know that he'd win, mind you. But I'd be concerned about giving away even enough ammunition to give him the idea that he might.
Heck, people have supposedly been sued over stating "compatible with GameX". Imagine how much more likely it would be if your project claimed to be "based in part on GameX" or "inspired by GameX".
I know I'm probably being paranoid, but still...
On 10/7/2004 at 9:22pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
Hi Calvin,
All of what follows should be cross-referenced with real advice from a real lawyer, as it pertains to a specific goal. General answers from me (a non-lawyer) are worth very little. I'm trying to specify the questions you'd ask, not provide answers for them.
Arguably, anyone can sue you for anything. Nothing prevents anyone from suing someone else; the issue is whether they think they can get anything out of it.
Violation of copyright and trademark are usually not a matter of mentioning the brand name. There are standards for Fair Use which do not require permission.
Best,
Ron
On 10/7/2004 at 11:05pm, greyorm wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
Not to mention, the vast majority of companies/writers are going to say, "Holy shit! Free advertising! Thanks!!" if you drop the name of their game in your work (and even "bad press" is advertising!).
So, quite seriously, I think the worry about being sued is far more prevalent than the occurence -- much like Mike's mention in one of the threads linked above about the fear of having your "idea" stolen by someone if you mention to anyone before publication.
Yeah, it has probably happened to someone somewhere, but there are a lot more people it hasn't happened to despite the opportunity for such to occur.
Again, however, as Ron says: seek a lawyer's advice. One of the best $50 you'll ever spend as a publisher.
On 10/7/2004 at 11:34pm, Doyce wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
I'll also point out that, ironically, I raised a very similar question recently: http://indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=12868
Wish I'd found Ron's suggested thread earlier, of course, but the feedback in that thread, especially the examples used and the feedback given, may still be somewhat useful.
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 12868
On 10/8/2004 at 4:07am, madelf wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
I think my point might have been missed.
Anyone can sue for anything, that's a given.
Chances are you'll never be sued for simply referring to someone's trademark in the manner we're talking about, that's also a given.
But...
One might ask oneself, why (when there's no legal obligation to do so) mention it at all, and thereby draw attention to the issue? Why take an action that even might open one up to a potential misunderstanding over the use of a trademark?
I could certainly be wrong, but I suspect this is the sort of reasoning behind the general lack of attribution in published games. No one wants to risk a potential liability with little to no real benefit to themselves.
How many people are going to be a nice guy, if they think it might land them in hot water?
Just a thought.
On 10/8/2004 at 4:29am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
One might ask oneself, why (when there's no legal obligation to do so) mention it at all, and thereby draw attention to the issue? Why take an action that even might open one up to a potential misunderstanding over the use of a trademark?
I can only answer for myself as Adept Press.
1. I don't give one moment of attention to anyone getting their knickers in a twist about this situation. My legal consultation puts me in the clear, either for reference to titles and authors or for quoting short passages. Apparently it is not illegal to say (for instance) "McDonalds" or the title of somone else's game in one's game text. So fuck them in the ear if they don't like it. That's the stick.
2. The context of my specific mention of other games is always positive. I'm giving credit for inspiration and otherwise advertising the game. In order to claim actual damages (rather than trademark violation), someone would really have to produce some numbers demonstrating how that hurts them. That's the carrot.
As I say, all of the above is one publisher's conclusion about the issues. The whole point of independent publishing is to be able to exercise our personal judgments of this sort, in full, over the property we sell or otherwise make available.
So Calvin, make your choice and stick to it. There's no real point to debating what amount to fundamental ethical outlooks, although comparisons are always interesting.
Best,
Ron
On 10/8/2004 at 2:44pm, madelf wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
So Calvin, make your choice and stick to it. There's no real point to debating what amount to fundamental ethical outlooks, although comparisons are always interesting.
Ron,
Just to be clear, I'm with you on this.
If I, personally, were to base something in significant part on someone else's specific work (as opposed to a broad concept like using dice pools or something like that - which I don't even know where they originated in the first place to be honest), I think a nod to the original would be both appropriate and defensible.
I'm really just playing devil's advocate and offering speculation on why some people might hesitate to do so. Intended more as food for thought than fuel for a debate.
On 10/8/2004 at 4:12pm, Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
If you're interested in seeing one person's opinion on how this should be done, take a look at http://www.anvilwerks.com/src/tsoy/book1--rulebook.html#influences.
On 10/8/2004 at 6:29pm, madelf wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
Clinton R. Nixon wrote: If you're interested in seeing one person's opinion on how this should be done, take a look at http://www.anvilwerks.com/src/tsoy/book1--rulebook.html#influences.
Nicely thought out.
I believe that would be the toughest part for me... just figuring out where the ideas actually came from. Like your Fudge example of descriptive terms for levels of success, for instance... I've never taken more than a passing glance at Fudge personally, but I know about that method of labeling. It seems like a "don't a lot of games do that?" reaction for me, though I couldn't tell you what ones actually do.
None that I've played, I think. Yet it's still there in my head.
I suppose I should think about that sort of thing more.
On 10/9/2004 at 12:33am, Tav_Behemoth wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
madelf wrote:
One might ask oneself, why (when there's no legal obligation to do so) mention it at all, and thereby draw attention to the issue? Why take an action that even might open one up to a potential misunderstanding over the use of a trademark?
I could certainly be wrong, but I suspect this is the sort of reasoning behind the general lack of attribution in published games. No one wants to risk a potential liability with little to no real benefit to themselves.
How many people are going to be a nice guy, if they think it might land them in hot water?
One thing you can do as a publisher to encourage citation of your work is to say "Hey, if you're inspired by something I did in this game, or want to use some rules mechanic, you're welcome to do so, and I hope you'll mention that my work was the source (or however you want to be cited)."
Behemoth3 did this with a limited license in the Masters and Minions books. Our version was more complicated because it had to overcome some OGL issues, but the basic idea is good advice for everyone, I think.
My feeling is that citation is something that most people want for themselves & want to do for others, but that the fears you mention hold them back; if you explicitly say you'd like people to cite you, that's good for you and good for the field.
On 10/13/2004 at 8:18pm, woodelf wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
madelf wrote: One might ask oneself, why (when there's no legal obligation to do so) mention it at all, and thereby draw attention to the issue? Why take an action that even might open one up to a potential misunderstanding over the use of a trademark?
I could certainly be wrong, but I suspect this is the sort of reasoning behind the general lack of attribution in published games. No one wants to risk a potential liability with little to no real benefit to themselves.
How many people are going to be a nice guy, if they think it might land them in hot water?
The fact that people think something might happen is not proof that it might happen. I suspect you're right: a lot of people don't cite because they believe that they'd be opening themselves up to accusations of trademark infringement. The WotC OGL has probably reinforced this, because a lot of people are ignorant about how trademarks, patents, and copyrights work, so they see the WotC OGL saying "you can't use trademarks", and they assume this is reiteration of an existing restriction, not one introduced by the license.
As simple counter-evidence for anyone who believes this, send the person in question to an auto-parts store, where they can observe the huge number of un-licensed, un-approved, probably-disliked products that use trademarks without permission beyond what fair use allows.
So why do it? Well, in the absence of any reason not to (i've just shown, as others before me have, that there's no real risk of litigation), why not? I'd say even the nebulous, slight benefits of goodwill from other authors for the free advertising, and being honest about your inspirations/sources, should be more than enough to outweigh the essentialy-zero cost.
On 10/13/2004 at 8:28pm, woodelf wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
Tav_Behemoth wrote: My feeling is that citation is something that most people want for themselves & want to do for others, but that the fears you mention hold them back; if you explicitly say you'd like people to cite you, that's good for you and good for the field.
Actually, i'd say there're two traditions on this matter: the academic tradition, and the business tradition.
In the academic tradition, credit where credit is due is the primary currency. If you use someone else's work, you've done something wrong by [implicitly] claiming it as your own. If you cite it, however, you're just fine.
In the business tradition, sales is the primary currency. If you use someone else's work, you done something wrong by [potentially] stealing their sales. If you pay them for the privelege, however, you're just fine.
In the academic tradition, truth is the important part, so admitting your source is good. In the business tradition, all you're doing by admitting you've borrowed is leave yourself open to claims of stealing sales--but truth isn't inherently important, sales are. So you can make the compatible product and just not talk about it, and you're in the clear, because you haven't told the consumer, so you're not competing, much less infringing on sales.
Hmmm...i'm not sure i've expressed that very clearly. What i'm trying to get at is that i think your "most people" want both to cite and be cited is an oversimplification. In the business tradition, what you want is the additional money that comes from acknowledging influence, and the acknowledgement is merely a tool to that end. Only in the academic tradition do "most people" probably believ in citation as all-good.
On 10/18/2004 at 5:34am, Tav_Behemoth wrote:
RE: Stealing Your Rules! What do you think?
"Most people want citation" is shorthand for "Every RPG publisher I've ever heard from or spoken to about this pet issue of mine wants their work to be cited, but this sample is incomplete and there is a minority of large publishers whose take on citation is likely to be different."
You're right that there is an academic precedent for citation in an open intellectual system, but I think it's wrong to make a distinction between business and academic publication. Historically, academic publication has been a business and one whose scale, concerns, and overall nerdiness makes it a very good fit for thinking about RPG publishing.
In this mini-industry, a lack of citation is bad for the business of both parties. If I use your work without acknowledging it, I deprive you of the potential sales of your monograph that would have come from people who encountered your ideas in my work & wanted to track them down to the source. In addition, I deprive myself of the sales that would come from participating in the academic tradition. A book on hummingbirds is going to sell better if it demonstrably calls on a history of established work by previous authors; one that lacks a decent bibilography is going to be taken as the work of an amateur.
I think RPG publishing is a highly academic tradition, and the academic tradition has been dealing with the commercial use of intellectual issues for centuries longer than anyone else.
woodelf wrote: In the business tradition, what you want is the additional money that comes from acknowledging influence, and the acknowledgement is merely a tool to that end.
Every tradition wants money. It's still not the sole reason for acknowledgement. Business, like academics and every other human endeavor, is largely driven by ego. People want to be cited. Businesses might not, but people run businesses.
Citation is, like money, merely a highly evolved tool people invented to quantify the process of stroking their egos. Acknowledment is like grooming behavior; tribes that don't do it enough are unhealthy (and probably comprised of too many males).