Here's a thread where you can post new or old shows that you think are good role-model shows for Primetime Adventures, adding to the short and questionable list I included in the rulebook.

I'll kick it off...

Desperate Housewives
This show is a pleasant surprise, and perfectly set up for Primetime Adventures-style play. Ensemble cast, a great mix of personal stories (the issues are begging for attention) and mysterious uber-plot, a narrator that'd be fun as hell for someone (maybe the producer) to play, and an amazing cast and great writing. As opposed to most in-game series, which I wish could be on television, I wish this show were a game I was playing right now.

I'll be equally impressed if this show finds an audience sufficient enough to keep it on the air.

Lost
This one's hard to describe, but it's seriously engaging. Brought to you by JJ Abrams, who produced the equally compelling Alias and Felicity. Here's how to do fear and vulnerability on a TV show. Another formula for cast and story that fits the game nicely.

Hello,

All in the Family and Good Times, the two hardest-hitting shows produced by Norman Lear.

MASH

Seinfeld

Babylon 5

I think it's important that PTA can handle almost-entirely episodic shows (Seinfeld) or almost-entirely epic shows (B5) without any problem. The game itself doesn't assume either.

You can use the distribution of Screen Presence as an "arc" (e.g. Buffy, B5) or just use it as a way of saying "who's up" (Seinfeld).

Best,
Ron

Deadwood
A western, with Issues. The moral conflicts of this show are engaging and serve the western backdrop very well. What do you do with a ncessary evil? What is necessary? What is evil? The show casts a villain as the lead protagonist, and it works.

The Shield
Very similar to Deadwood in tone and themes. A modern cop-drama with Issues writ large. This show is a good primer on how to escalate conflicts and keep the pressure on the protags at all times. Almost every scene of this series is in-your-face conflict.

The Office
Played for laughs (as opposed to the exorcising of workplace demons) it could be lots of fun.

All my favorite 'ship-y shows would work well - Gilmore Girls is already highlighted in the book, but I can see a great fit for Felicity, My So-Called Life and The O.C., too.

I just watched a series of Season 3 Felicity eps that follow the structure of issues and screen presence really well [Warning! Don't read this if you're still looking forward to the DVD - Harper I'm looking at you!]:

- Ben's issue is seething anger at an absentee alcoholic father. After a series of escalating hopes and disappointments (which lead to fistfights), he comes to a more peaceful outlook early on in the series.

- Molly's issue is troubled self-esteem, which translates into a relationship with an emotionally controlling and drug-addicted boyfriend. That issue comes to a turning point in the middle of the series when he arrives at a party and starts shooting. This finally breaks Molly free of him and she learns how to take care of herself.

- Noel's issue is heartbreak over the loss of his true love, Felicity, to his rival Ben. He runs through a number of dissatisfying relationships with other women (including a disastrous stalking attempt) until at the end of the series of episodes he bares his soul to Felicity and attempts to come to terms with the consequences (loss of her friendship).

Ben gets an early high SP, Molly's is high in the middle, Noel's is high at the end. They each confront their issues during their spotlight ep to the satisfaction of the audience.

Thanks for the warning, The Deuce! Even now I am steadfastly averting my gaze from the details of your post.

Yes folks, I'm a Felicity fan. So what?

I thought of another role-model show:

Teen Titans
The current animated series. It's a fine example of tight plotting and pacing (they do a lot with 30 minutes) and how even a so-called "kids show" can deal with Issues. Each character has a clear issue and screen presence waxes and wanes from episode to episode. It also illustrates how notions of "power level" and character authority are not stumbling blocks for PTA-style play. A few characters are vastly more powerful than the others, but it doesn't impact screen presence or effectiveness in terms of the action or the story being told.

The other Timm/Murakami/Dini shows share these qualities: Batman Animated, Justice League, JL: Unlimited, Superman Animated, Batman Beyond.

Hi all,

Well, I'm a TV fanatic, I watch it all (okay, a mild overstatement) and that's the reason why I'm so incredibly exited about this game. But that's another thread.
Some of my favorite shows has allready been listed (like Deadwood, The OC, Gilmore Girls etc.) but some has not.

One Tree Hill: Just another teen soap, but it's really good and after a few episodes I was hooked, and I think it would fit PTA just fine.

Six Feet Under (listed in the book?): One of the best shows on TV. The daily life of the owners and employees of a funderal home is far more interesting then it seems. Great characters, really great characters. I would love to play one of them sometime...

CSI: I don't really know if it fits PTA or not, but if you want to play a show about murders and crime, this is what you want to take inspiration from at least, you can really get to know a lot of details that can add that extra touch.

Then there is obvious shows like Sopranos and Twin Peaks(I would love to play a Twin Peaks-esk scenario... but does it fit the game?).

Jonas:

Hey, thanks for posting.

Actually, the Six Feet Under reference in the book is the first bit of game errata that I have to post. After I approved it for printing, someone pointed out (thanks Julie!) that for some reason I refer to David Fischer as "Stephen." Whoops. Too much julebryg for me, huh?

Also, good call on One Tree Hill. Pretty much any teen-focused show is going to be packed with issues.

I've actually not seen an episode of CSI, believe it or not. But I'll try to catch the next one.

The original CSI (CSI Green) is all PTA material, all the way. Gil's got his need for control and his encroaching deafness as issues, Warrick's got his gambling issue, Sara's got the whole "crush on my boss" thing, and Catherine's doing the "single parent juggling job vs family thing". CSI: Miami (CSI Yellow) tries to do the same thing, but the characters are such stick figures and the situations so absurd it's hard to take seriously. I've only seen one episode of CSI: New York (CSI Blue), so I haven't got a sense for that one yet.

In a similar vein, if you wanted to do "Dramady", you might take a looking at Crossing Jordan (known as "Jahden" around our house) which started out as a CSI knock off, but embraced its utter goofiness after the first season. All the characters have melodramatic issues, which at this point are played up primarily for the goofy character interactions, with tongue frequently firmly in cheek.

You're right about CSI Green, Wil. Running CSI as a PTA show, though, would change the focus somewhat. On CSI, an epsiode is about the case, and the (ahem) science used to solve it. The protags and their issues drift about in the background, more or less as emotional window dressing.

Running it as PTA, the elements would be reversed, I think. The issues of the protags take center stage and the (cough) science and the cases would become interesting background.

It would still be plenty of fun to play, of course. But I'm not sure that PTA really supports the "case first" style of the show.

Hi there,

Actually, I don't think a "case first" approach for PTA would be difficult at all. Screen Presence would still play exactly the same role; it's just not as "loud" at any setting as for, say, a Buffy or Six Feet Under type approach. Nor would there be any particular need for climactic, issue-resolving episodes.

Everyone would certainly have to put more effort into the external-to-character content, but granted that everyone wants to have a show about (e.g.) forensic investigation or (e.g.) sport-of-the-week, that's not hard either.

Best,
Ron

Oh, you certainly could run a case-first game, no problem. But if you play PTA as written, I don't think the result is a case-first show. That's all I'm saying. The group needs to prioritize the case as the main thing, and dial back their screen presence appropriately, like Ron said.

What "dial back" and "appropriately" mean would be a matter of group taste.

I toyed with the idea of making the case itself a kind of character, with its own issue and screen presence. Then you'd run a case over several "episodes" and use the screen presence track as an indicator for when the case was dominant and when the protag's issues were dominant. The issue of the case (i.e. "Revenge" or "Greed") could come into play during a conflict, when appropriate, for either the producer or the players.

But that's probably over-thinking things that the group can handle in a more organic way.

Matt:

Hi, thanks and you're welcome.

Yeah, One Tree Hill has a bunch of issues, and in this show the parents have issues too. Maybe not as much as in The OC though but more in say 90210. A good thing with this kind of show is that you have so much to take inspiration from, all the high school movies and TV-series you've seen. And well, I kind of like some of the characters too. They are stereotypes like the jock and the cheerleader and the new kid with problems, but sometimes you catch new sides of them too, sides you didn't expect.

Yeah, catch CSI, especially Las Vegas. New York is good too (a little darker and with Gary Sinise in the lead, who I like). I don't really care for Miami, but I haven't seen it that much either. It airs on the worst time in Sweden (Saturdays at 20.00). I really do think that you could play a couple of episodes with "case first" but I think it's more interesting to put more focus on the issues between the different characters. But that depends on the case. A good case can become a real plunge into the depths of the characters souls if you make it personal.

I got to tell you, I look forward to playing this game.

Later
/Jonas

Now the show that would be interesting to try to map into the PTA format would be Law & Order. The variant I have the most exposure to is SVU, and it definitely has character issues colliding with the "case of the day" on a frequent basis, which sounds perfect for PTA. What would be interesting though is the investigation/prosecution split around which each episode is structured. I wonder if the thing to do might be to give each player two protags, one for each half. Then you could bounce between them as the case moves through the system.

Okay, without wishing to reach the point of infinite recursion:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=7146
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=7133

... are a couple of threads from last year where we were thrashing around this idea for Medical & legal dramas.

Ally McBeal would kick ass in ways that the TV show didn't... for a start, you'd never be wondering why the lead character's pencil neck didn't snap under the weight of that head. Heck, it was all about issues with legal cases being the dramatisation of issue of the week.

ER... yup yup yup.

Meanwhile, I'd like to volunteer Ultraviolet, the first two series of Survivors, the Last Train, The Adventures of Robin Hood (goldcrest 1980's), Spooks... hmm, have to raid the cult TV sites now for UK episodic TV

I'll suggest a British shows from the past:

UFO (Gerry Anderson's series). The best episodes always hinted at some personal issues of the main characters, conflicts between service and personal life, and/or tension between command and in the field agents.

The Sandbaggers. Exceptional British series of the late 70s. It follows MI-6 operations, both agents in the field and the machinations of the ops director against various internal bureaucratic pressures.

Cracker. Fitz consults as a profiler for serial murder cases, and specializes in cracking suspects so they confess. He's charming and has a gift for seeing people's darkest secrets. He also smokes too much, drinks too much, and gambles. "I am too much!" Episodes weave an invesigation with various developments in his and the supporting cast's lives.

Jonas Larson wrote: I got to tell you, I look forward to playing this game.

Pete Darby wrote: Ally McBeal would kick ass in ways that the TV show didn't...

Alan wrote: I'll suggest a British shows from the past:

The Sandbaggers is such a PTA show it's not even funny. In some ways, it's the perfect PTA show; even more so than Buffy, since it relies less on an extended continuity. I would love to play Neil Burnside in a PTA series.

MI-5 (or Spooks in the UK) is definitely the spiritual successor to The Sandbaggers. It's also great PTA material, and has a lot in common with Alias -- a show that influenced PTA a lot.

Ooooh. Jack Bristow and Neil Burnside working side-by-side in an Alias/Sandbaggers crossover show! Now we've got something.

That's an interesting note on CSI John about the character issues being window dressing. I'm curious as to how often you watch the show, because I actually started that way but went through the reverse. Initially the appeal of the show was about the cases and the clever way they get solved...but once the novelty of science detectives wore off the real appeal to the show is the amazing character relationships. Very subtle, but very profound.

Having inadvertantly killed a day watching a CSI marathon a couple weeks ago I can say that for me, it was very much the character issues cycling in and out of the episodes that was more compelling than the cases. In fact, I think one of the true unheralded elements of the show is the effective choices about which CSI gets matched with which of the two cases going on each episode.

One of the episodes that sticks out for me was one where a wife was killed boating back home after being out with her lover. The key character issue was Catherine's bad marriage and her suppressed resentment that Gil didn't tell her that her husband was cheating on her even though he knew. The lover was the key suspect for the murder and Catherine violated SOP by telling the unsuspecting husband about his wife's infidelity on the grounds that he had a right to know. Ultimately the husband killed the lover for murdering his wife...unfortuneately the wife's death was then found to have been an accident.

It was Catherine's issues and her relationship with Gil that made that episode compelling. Much more so than the paint samples and wind diagrams of the science.

I don't know how much thought really goes in to matching character/character issue with case/case issue but if run as a PTA game that's where I think the "show" would be made or broken.

Well, I think CSI (Green) has *interesting* window dressing. It's a good reason to watch the show, in fact.

We're talking about where to put the focus. CSI has some cool and subtle issues being played out (often using the case as a metaphor the way Buffy uses demons) but they are "in the background" while the process of solving the case is front-and-center.

I think PTA may even address this somewhere in the text. Does the "action" of the episode take center stage or does the relationship/issue stuff dominate the air time? It's a group choice and the ratio will likely ebb and flow within an episode and over the series as a whole, using Screen Presence as a guide.

Matt Wilson wrote:
I highly recommend that you purchase it, but perhaps I am biased.

Valamir wrote: Initially the appeal of the show was about the cases and the clever way they get solved...but once the novelty of science detectives wore off the real appeal to the show is the amazing character relationships. Very subtle, but very profound.

I have to agree with John, Ralph, in terms of CSI and PTA. That is, I think it would be cool to have a game that did shows like CSI, L&O, et al. But PTA seems to me to be so centered on the characters issues, that the action becomes window dressing for the issues. That's the key, really. When you can tell that the action of the story is simply there to support the telling of the character's stories, then it's a PTA sorta show.

At least that's my impression.

Mike

Actually, I agree with you Mike. But in the case of CSI Vegas (haven't seen the others) I think it is centered on the character issues. The characters in Vegas could be lifted out of CSI and put into any other professional working environment that met a few basic requirements...1) long hours & high stress, 2) opportunity to get out of the office and into the community, 3) the work being done is both time sensitive and critical in nature.

In fact, those three are pretty much standard TV formula. We see them in every good Cop drama like NYPD Blue, most Ambulance / Firemen shows, every good Emergency Room drama (where #2 becomes the community coming to the office) etc, and most of the better court room dramas.

CSI Vegas is really nothing more than ER or NYPD Blue for the science geek. The forensic angle was really just a unique framework (unique in that it hadn't really been seen since Quincy and there's lots of new gadgets to play with since then) to stick the characters into.

The characters are more subtle and less in-your-face than in NYPD blue, but I also think they're more believable as regular people on the job than the often exaggerated characters seen in most dramas. Its that lack of artificial exaggeration that makes me enjoy CSI alot more than NYPD Blue or the Shield or the Sopranos or other character driven dramas. I'm also a big fan of Without a Trace whose characters are similiarly not exaggerated.

Now...can you run an effective role playing game with subtle characters?...that's a good question. Clearly RPGs are easier when the characters are exaggerated almost to the point of caraciture, but I think that's more convenience than requirement.

Hmm. You've convinced me. Took looking at some actual examples, but you're generally right. Even if facts in CSI don't always get established in order to promote a character issue, one could play it that way at least.

I think that my reaction is partly due to the technical nature of the show. That is, what I can't see people creating are all of the little background technical details. Nobody knows enough to be able to wing that in play. It's Paul's "Big Three" problem all over again. You're either forced to bullshit, or stick with what little you know about the field.

I bring this up because, one of the entertaining things about these shows is the education factor. This is the teensiest part that you can't do with PTA. You either know the material, or it's not getting in. So, from that POV, you can create a "faux" CSI, but not precisely the same thing.

Call it a quibble if you must. The other shows mentioned do not have this problem. Yes, I suppose that MASH might suffer from this ever so slightly, too. But a show like Scrubs does not. There's never any time in that show about doctors that one would have to know anything technical.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: I think that my reaction is partly due to the technical nature of the show. That is, what I can't see people creating are all of the little background technical details. Nobody knows enough to be able to wing that in play. It's Paul's "Big Three" problem all over again. You're either forced to bullshit, or stick with what little you know about the field.

Not as easy as that. For PTA, it has to be a detail that will create some situation in which a character issue is displayed. The example that convinced me about CSI that I remembered was that Catherine at one point finds these women who are going through anti-aging treatments (which at first seem to be ebola), and the issue of her own appearance and age becomes central.

Further, getting four random facts to work together might not be so easy. Also, I can see this getting you past the initial stages, but later, I think that foundering and BSing will occur.

Lastly, yeah it might work - but then are you again putting focus on some other part of the show? Basically this is a modification to PTA. So to be pedantic about it, it's not PTA, QED.

Would it be fun? Sure, I'd try it. It occurs to me that this might work really well for chat play where players with downtime could do research on the net for when they came back into the next scene.

Mike

Naw, Mike... it's just color. It adds to the "cool techy show" feeling. The little details that dunlaing suggests don't have to take over the whole show.

Remember that the group is probably rolling conflicts about the investigation in order to narrate these bits in as part of the color of the scene. To have conflict, you have to have stakes. To have stakes, the people at the table have to care about the situation to begin with. So it takes care of itself. If no one cares about the tech details (or the investigation, for that matter) then the conflicts of the episode probably won't touch on them.

Also, it's perfectly okay to have a conflict in PTA that has nothing to do with a character's issue.

I think the easiest way to do a crime show would be to do something like Vincent & co's Epidemonology. With the supernatural or magic or superscience in the mix, there's no need to worry about genuine forensics and annoying physics. You could set it in the Trek universe, Middle Earth, the Buffyverse, all sorts of places.

If it was in the Trek universe, though, every week the crime would be committed by remodulating the deflector dish, and the victim would be wearing red.

If it was in the Trek universe, though, every week the crime would be committed by remodulating the deflector dish, and the victim would be wearing red.

Mike, how about "everyone bring a factoid about the desert, with a mind to tying into someone's issue."

I mean, everyone knows every character's issue, right? Looks like you'd end up with everyone providing a bang for one character each too... which is no bad thing.

pete_darby wrote: Mike, how about "everyone bring a factoid about the desert, with a mind to tying into someone's issue."

I mean, everyone knows every character's issue, right? Looks like you'd end up with everyone providing a bang for one character each too... which is no bad thing.

I just saw that episode of CSI with the plastic surgeon and Catherine worrying about aging. I think I'd have to agree that the characterization is too subtle for gaming. There's no action and no decision making on her part, just wondering if she is getting old revealed by her looking in a mirror at the end. It's possible to do but I really think it's more likely solving the murders will end up becoming central to a game based on CSI.

To get back to the original thread topic I can think of a movie that would be an excellent basis for a PTA game. The Royal Tenenbaums. Rent it if you havent already seen it. The whole story is about revealing the characters through their choices and actions. Each of the main characters have deep issues they have to work out and in the end they do.

Some more series I imagine would be playable in PTA (just ordered it today, so...)

The Kingdom (Lars von Trier version, haven't seen the new one) - even though it's mystery driven, it is also an ensemble piece with a lot of subplots.

Homicide: Life on the street - which was much more character driven than CSI.

Futurama - probably not all episodes, but at least some of them deal with character issues (Fry feeling out of place and useless, Leela being a mutant).

Family Guy - same thing.

/Max

kaotmus wrote: Homicide: Life on the street - which was much more character driven than CSI.

How about these?

Malcolm in the Middle - these people definitely have both issues and conflicts. And the conflicts are definitely not the traditional RPG types, either. The conflicts usually aren't about "can I do this?" but "can I get away with this?" or "will doing this bring about the result I intend?" Most of the time in this show, the protagonists fail, and their plots backfire.

Scrubs - there's clearly a central character here, with JD narrating (almost) every episode, but the spotlight still gets shared around a bit, and the show does some surprising things that gave me ideas for PTA. For one thing, JD's apparent nemesis (especially early), Dr. Cox, is really a connection. (His real nemesis is the janitor.) Also the first-person narration could be interesting as a technique for a protagonist's spotlight episode: let them narrate the openings of the scenes they're in, perhaps?

As I was thinking about these and other shows, I also noticed an interesting pattern of nemeses:

WKRP in Cincinnati: Mr. Carlson's nemesis - his mother

Seinfeld: George's nemesis - his parents

Gilmore Girls: Lorelai's nemesis - her parents

There are probably more like this out there, but again, a good model for potential conflicts.

Kaotmus: Wow! The Kingdom would be at terrific (terrefying?) show to play in PTA! Riget (must use the original title sometimes) is one of the best TV shows ever, along with Twin Peaks and some more. The colors in it, and the characters, wow. But that kind of acting is hard to follow (Ernst Hugo Järegård is great). I would love to try it though, great call. And for everyone who hasn't seen it, do it now! I know there is a DVD out in Scandinavia, but I can't say I know if you could get a version with english subtitles, maybe on VHS.

Another show worth a look is the new ABC series "Lost" I'll post a link to tvtome.com: Lost

It's great, especially the later episodes, and very character driven, like all dramas, great characters and sometime very exciting.

Speaking of British shows there was one that came on late at night where I was called 'Lovejoy'.

Not a lot of action but great dialouge and characters plus the viewer could learn a thing or two.

Other shows I like that could turn into a fun gaming session:

Firefly

Cowboy Bebop

M.A.S.H

Greg The Bunny

24



I don't have the book yet so I don't know how appropriate any of these choices would be.


Warren

WarrenET2 wrote: I don't have the book yet so I don't know how appropriate any of these choices would be.

Jonas Larson wrote:

Another show worth a look is the new ABC series "Lost" I'll post a link to tvtome.com: Lost

Josh wrote: Oh, off the top of my head I'd say Firefly is spot on.

Cool, though I think I'll not game Firefly with my kids.

Just realized that my kids both love the Pokemon* and Yugi-Oh! cartoons.

So if it works will probably play one of those first.
















* I like Pokemon as well. The kids are good people, they fight evil (or stupid in the case of Jesse and James) and they help peole who need it. Plus they are pursuing their dreams unhindered by any sort of authority figures telling them they MUST do this or that or face the consequences.

And I'm about as cynical a person as you'll find and I still dig the show.

Hey Warren:

How old are your kids? I'll be interested to see how they grasp the concept of Issues.

Hmmm. OK, now I'm going to have to do a Power Rangers game (or something like it) with my son. The interesting thing is that what makes Power Rangers seem so inane to adults is that the characterizations (writing and acting) are so paper thin. But that's what makes them accessible to children.

Yeah, all the issues are going to be things like "Real Life vs. Life as a Ranger" but, again, what do you expect from little kids?

Mike

Matt Wilson wrote: Hey Warren:

How old are your kids? I'll be interested to see how they grasp the concept of Issues.

Matt:

Oh, well... Great call then! Should have checked if somebody had made that call before though, it's such a given one! And one that totally escaped me... This thread made me watch The Shield, and I had seen all excisting episodes five days later. Why didn't Lost get stuck then? A friend tipped me off about that one. Lucky me, it rocks. You described it perfectly too.

One thing to point out: The Kingdom is a danish show, just so that everybody is clear on that part.

Bye
Jonas

Third Watch. Definitely. Very underappreciated show.

Law and Order, specifically the SVU spinoff.

Dead Like Me. I'm only up to episode 6, but I really like how it's getting deeper. And you can't beat the premise!

The Darling Buds of May.

Don't laugh. Or do, when you watch the show, cuz it's funny. But as I'm watching it I'm thinking how well PTA would work to play in a game based on it.

No other RPG system in the world would work. Not one. But that's not why PTA would work so well; it would work so well because it's so damn good.

Yeah, Deade Like Me would be perfect! Too bad it got cancelled after only two seasons. Still waiting to see the second season though, it won't be too long for me now (a friend has it).

You could probably do a lot of interesting storylines with that premise!

Oh, another show already mentioned, Alias, I recently watched all seasons of it. I'd love to play that one!

Has somebody mentioned Oz? Otherwise I think that could be a lot of bad ass fun!

A new show I've given the kiss of death to, "Johnny Zero". Great pacing, a great protagonist, some fight scenes, some comedy, and family drama.


Side note:
A couple years ago I jumped on the bandwagon for "Firefly". Lasted less thana season. At the same time, I fell in love with "John Doe." At least that one lasted a full season...I'm convinced that "Alias" only survived my interest because I missed the first two seasons.

BBC America is running a soap called "At Home With the Braithwaites" that's ... well, it's a lot darker and edgier seeming than the few American soaps I've been exposed to. Every character's Issue comes up in almost every show, though.