Hi.

I'm searching for a RPG-system for modern combat (=firearms). I'd like to find a system that works both with a WW2 and a present day (~year 2000) campaigns. So auto- and burstfire rules should be included.

I'm trying to find a system both realistic but also fast and playable. I was almost comfortable even with the Twilight:2000 system, until I spent a year in the army :). Now I need much more realism. More realistic injury-rules, range and recoil calculations and so on. But I'm not looking for anything like Phoenix Command either...no, not 'that' realistic.

I have tried out some systems, I'll list them here:

1. Twilight:2000

- too long combat turns (5s, you can shoot 50 rounds in that time!)
- too unrealistic weapon damages and recoil calculation
- injury rules suck! You can blow up a hand grenade in your hand and still recover in a few days


2. GURPS

- too slow (combat turns are only 1s long)
- a bit too complicated
- 3D6 doesn't work very well imo
- range and recoil calculation for weapons could be much better


3. Millennium's End

- too much numbers (in combat, in character skill/stats/attributes)
- range calcultaion sucks (you hit extremely easy at short distances but need to very good to hit a human at 150m with an assault rifle (and that is not very difficult if you are aiming properly)
- I don't like how basic attributes are calculated... way too much calculation to be done


4. Phoenix Command

- superveryextra realistic........and slow



---

The best system of those above is Millennium's End (imo). Although it really sucks in some parts, I really liked the "silhouette" HIT-table and the lenght of combat turns (2-3s).



So, does anyone know a Rule-system to recommend? I'm really desperate! :D


jone

Realistic usually means different things to different people. Can you describe what you want more?

To give you an example of what I mean, to me, realistic rules for guns might mean that when you are shot, you roll d6. Anything but 6 means you're dead. To me, that's realistic because most people die when they get shot. It's also pretty fast.

Chris (Welcome to the Forge) is right: realistic has a lot of different meanings. I like what we did with Multiverser, because an ordinary person picking up a gun probably can't kill you with it without firing a lot of bullets, and an expert probably can kill you with a single shot.

You might take a look at a couple articles by Charles Franklin in the e-zine The Way, the Truth, and the Dice. I remember Hitting Them Where It Hurts dealt with how to get the kind of results in play that match military statistics, and The Fog of War attempted to suggest ways to bring the confusion of battle into the game. If that's the sort of "realism" you mean, Franklin is a veteran marine and a veteran gamer (he was at Origins when Dungeons & Dragons was introduced), so he's pretty solid on this.

I hope that helps.

--M. J. Young

Chris Geisel wrote:
Realistic usually means different things to different people. Can you describe what you want more?

To give you an example of what I mean, to me, realistic rules for guns might mean that when you are shot, you roll d6. Anything but 6 means you're dead. To me, that's realistic because most people die when they get shot. It's also pretty fast.

M. J. Young wrote:
Chris (Welcome to the Forge) is right: realistic has a lot of different meanings. I like what we did with Multiverser, because an ordinary person picking up a gun probably can't kill you with it without firing a lot of bullets, and an expert probably can kill you with a single shot.

M. J. Young wrote:
You might take a look at a couple articles by Charles Franklin in the e-zine The Way, the Truth, and the Dice. I remember Hitting Them Where It Hurts dealt with how to get the kind of results in play that match military statistics, and The Fog of War attempted to suggest ways to bring the confusion of battle into the game. If that's the sort of "realism" you mean, Franklin is a veteran marine and a veteran gamer (he was at Origins when Dungeons & Dragons was introduced), so he's pretty solid on this.

R.Talsorian had a book out called Compendium of Modern Firearms (Edge of the Sword Vol. 1) that had a firearm combat system built into it, but I'm not sure if it will be to your liking. The system was kinda slow, but realistic...

Well as realistic as rolling a die to shoot someone with a gun that doesn't exist can be. But it was geared to be used with multiple systems and not locked down to one style or genre.

Hope this helps.

jone wrote: Multiverser?

IMO Conspiracy X has an excellent combat resolution system that is both fast and deadly. But it does not have detailed hit locations or the like. The spread of gunshot wound results looks very plausible to me, and it easily allows a pistol bullet to wound slightly or grievously without taking too much calculation or calling for special exceptions.

Conspiracy X is a good one, I've found Blue Planet v2 to have my favourite combat resolution system, but then I am an abstract rules fan.

also check out Godlike if you can find it.

jone wrote: I'm trying to find a system both realistic but also fast and playable. . . snip . . . I think the actual damage isn't that important... the part I'd like to be "realistic" is the whole combat before the hit is taken; shooting different rates of fire (single, burst, auto), shooting at different distances, aiming bonuses, recoil penalties, hit location, etc. But still, I think GURPS and its 1s-turns is too slow.

contracycle wrote:
IMO Conspiracy X has an excellent combat resolution system that is both fast and deadly. But it does not have detailed hit locations or the like. The spread of gunshot wound results looks very plausible to me, and it easily allows a pistol bullet to wound slightly or grievously without taking too much calculation or calling for special exceptions.

M. J. Young wrote:
Well, I'm not exactly certain what the question is, but I'll try to give a brief answer.

M. J. Young wrote:
There are other features of the system that make experts particularly deadly while keeping amateurs somewhat limited, but these two leap to mind. I'd be happy to discuss it in more detail, if you've got questions.

The system on my "realistic pure system" shortlist: BTRC's CORPS. It seems like it might be just what you want:

• Generally fast, often not needing rolls (If Skill >= Difficulty, autosuccess; if Difficulty-Skill>5, autofailure; otherwise, a probability on a 1d10 of success)
• Realistic: 1 second rounds (you might dislike that, or you might find it more reasonable that TW2K; there are rate-of-fire limits and the like to keep rounds sane)
• Nonrandom initiative system, based on the skills used in combat
• Fixed damage
• Optional rules for autofire + instant (NPC) kills
• A rather gritty implementation of damage, based on impairments to the body
• and CORPS reflects BTRC's almost crazy dedication to accuracy of guns, recoil, etc.



In short, you're looking at a d10 roll for each action, and perhaps another d10 for hit location (if the person doesn't pick a target), and getting shot with a gun hurts, and with the right calibur will kill you. I could definitely see a mix of the optional rules (remembering to exclude the optional rules you don't want) that would give you something like the play you want.

Unfortunately, the BTRC site seems to down. If anyone could provide the Quickstart rules, that would be neat! Otherwise, I'll put them on my site.

An additional comment (to keep my post from sounding too much like a "Sell Me On ..." reply):

I appreciate where CORPS makes its choices about realism/not-realism. I guess I'll go point-by-point...

• Combat: In many games, you can count on always some passive dodge or saving throw against incoming blows, and using anaesthetic HP reflecting injury.. Combat in CORPS is notably harsh in both these realms, and would not support that style of play. Ideal combat (in terms of success) is probably preliminary maximization one's advantages in a given situation, followed by a quick and fast use of overwhelming force. Certainly, a different feel than some kinds of "heroic", drawn-out combat that you may seek in other geems. In other words, wuxia this ain't.
• Granularity & Probabilities: Greg Porter (designer) expressed his opinion that 10% granularity of probabilities was as much that was needed (i.e. that the 5% steps of a d20 were slightly unnecessary, and a d100 granularity was totally unnecessary). If a 10%
• Charts & Fixed Damages: Damage is always fixed, which I feel is acceptible due to the coarse granularity of impairments; and various charts are used, but are often based on rather simplified numerical patterns (he's a big fan of squared numbers). I've seen the detail he puts into statting out guns & real-world phenomenona (more than I'd ever care about), so I have faith that it jibes pretty well with reality.
• Stats & Skills: The relationship between a raw attribute and a learned skill is often argued about in terms of realism. The tack that Porter takes is a raw attribute is not additive towards a skill (as in stat+skill systems), but rather makes learning a given skill "cheaper" while increasing your ability to do unskilled tasks. (Sidenote: he has some interesting choices for "base attributes". They seem slightly different from what you'd expect, but they make more gaming-sense upon further reflection.)
• Fixed-point character build: This is arguably a concession against "realistism" in favor of "gamability", especially if you believe that persons can be inherently unequal. Especially when natural min-maxing tendencies come into play, some odd combinations are likely to come about, like my friend who had a Level 5 Enemy with UNICEF in order to earn 25 SP. (Given my current play-preferences, I would probably have players build their characters WITHOUT a fixed-point total, freely building characters as they like, although I'd use the total for some other in-game purpose.)

Found CORPS nutshell. http://www.btrc.net/files/nutshellc/nutshell_v15en.pdf

Wow, I really appreciate you shared this much information to me (and others). Thank you.

Nice link, looks cool. I think I have to take a closer look at this game system.

CORPS seems very good at first look. I really have to check this up.

Since people seem to be doing the "just throwing things out there" thing, I recommend you check out Friday Night Firefight, the combat system for Cyberpunk 2013 and 2020. It is extremely playable, and very realistic in terms of providing a fear of guns, nastiness of injuries, and resolution between, say, a sniper rifle and a saturday night special.

yrs--
--Ben

jone wrote: ...the part I'd like to be "realistic" is the whole combat before the hit is taken...

I'll chime in with a recommendation for CORPS. It's been our system of choice for modern and SF campaigns for over 10 years. The few times I've gone to a firing range, I usually ended up discussing CORPS with a friend, and it seemed to reality-check very well when dealing with firearms.

(You can even buy the PDF version for only $10.)

Tom B.

jone wrote: The system sounds like it's worth testing. Of course, if you want to tell me more about it...here's what I'd like to know:

- Is there combat rounds/turns? How long?
- For firearms, what kind of rules are there for shooting at different ranges, recoil, shooting at a prone character and while being prone, shooting while moving, etc?

Thank you M. J. Young. No more question at this moment. I have to consider taking a closer look at your book.

About CORPS.
Does anyone get annoyed by having only 5 different succeeding persentages?

9 - 90&
7 - 70%
5 - 50%
3 - 30%
1 - 10%

This seems pretty few to me, as I'm used to D20 or D100 systems. And even though this is a D10 system, it ignores half of the D10 results (2,4,6,8,0).. so it's more like a "D5" system.

What do you think about that?

Hey jone,

As for the probability, I never had a problem with it. This was on of those "concessions" to what you'd expect from reality (coarse resolution) in favor of Greg's decisions about better gameplay (not bothering with d%). Mitigating this seemling coarse range is that these reflect a relatively narrow numerical range; many tasks in the system are autosuccesses or autofailures, and for this reason CORPS is sometimes called semidiceless. I gotta say, the resolution system is one of the speediest for a game as complex as that.

Okay, secondly, I *would* like to go into Fred's pointed question, since aside from "Our Favorite Game" and such, there's an interesting question here:

Vaxalon wrote:

jone wrote: ...the part I'd like to be "realistic" is the whole combat before the hit is taken...

You still haven't told us what you mean by realistic?

Do you want to be able to believe, at the table, that the things YOU know about modern combat are handled by mechanics?...

jone wrote:
About CORPS.
Does anyone get annoyed by having only 5 different succeeding persentages?

9 - 90&
7 - 70%
5 - 50%
3 - 30%
1 - 10%

This seems pretty few to me, as I'm used to D20 or D100 systems. And even though this is a D10 system, it ignores half of the D10 results (2,4,6,8,0).. so it's more like a "D5" system.

What do you think about that?

Ok.


Well, I'm not searching for super-realism here...the playability is priority number one.

But I want bullets to be deadly (unlike in tw:2k), but still allow players to survive some of the hits (to keep up the playability of the game).

And since I want bullets to hurt, I also want the actual firefight to be detailed enough. In Tw2k, you can fire 50 rounds with a machine gun, in a sinle turn before any of the elite soldiers you are shooting at can even think about dodging or dropping prone.

Now I've got my hands in CORPS core book and read through some parts of the game. It seems good, but it seems somewhat complicated too (1s turns, initiative calculation etc).

So, is it complicated? Or/and is it slow? How difficult/slow is it to solve a close quarter firefight with 10 persons engaged in it (of which only 3 or 4 are player characters and rest NPCs)? Will a situtation like that kill the GM?

-

Btw, I took a look at Friday Night Firefight combat system. It seems pretty fast (!) and realistic (not as realistic as CORPS) too. But I only have the combat system, no character generation (Skills, etc) included. Any opinions on this one?

Sorry for the huge number of questions I once again spammed here :)

jone wrote: Well, I'm not searching for super-realism here...the playability is priority number one.

jone wrote: But I want bullets to be deadly (unlike in tw:2k), but still allow players to survive some of the hits (to keep up the playability of the game).
...
And since I want bullets to hurt, I also want the actual firefight to be detailed enough. In Tw2k, you can fire 50 rounds with a machine gun, in a single turn before any of the elite soldiers you are shooting at can even think about dodging or dropping prone.

Thanks for your answers again. I have decided not to use COPRS, as it is somewhat too slow and complicated (especially for GM who has to deal with all the NPCs).

Ben Lehman wrote:
Since people seem to be doing the "just throwing things out there" thing, I recommend you check out Friday Night Firefight, the combat system for Cyberpunk 2013 and 2020. It is extremely playable, and very realistic in terms of providing a fear of guns, nastiness of injuries, and resolution between, say, a sniper rifle and a saturday night special.

I checked out Cyberpunk 2013 and Cyberpunk 2020.
The combat system (Friday Night Firefight) looks nice in Cp2013...: about 3.2s combat rounds divided in 3 phases, rules for burst and automatic fire, different hit locations (arms, head, torso, legs) but not too specific, deadly weapons, simple system. The only problem was the lack of examples in the rules...some parts weren't explained well enough (melee combat, for example).

Then I decided to take a look at Cp2020's combat system, as it is a second edition of Cyberpunk. Melee combat was explained well, that's good...even different martial arts schools were listed etc. But, for some reason this new edition of FNFF is much simpler than FNFF rules in Cp2013. The biggest change was in combat rules, which now last 3s and are not divided to phases. I liked the complexity of Cp2013 FNFF because it was more realistic but still far more simpler than f.ex. CORPS combat.

So, now it very much seems like I need to create some kind of a combination of these two CP FNFF combat rules. Gaahhh, more work...I hope it's worth it.

I would suggest Godlike (One Roll Engine). It's fast, but robust. The ORE (One Roll Engine) has Initative, To-hit, Location, and Damage all in a single roll (for non-combat you have Quality and Speed in a single roll).

Being a WW2 based game, it also has great rules for burst fire as well as surpression fire. The area effect, grenade, and other rules are also very nice. Plus, they have a lot of optional rules like Detailed Hit Locations (the basic system has basic hit locations encoded in the roll, the detailed system adds more detail still using the single roll) or Killing Disposition (determining if a group of NPCs would actually shoot to kill in a combat situation), most of which are availble for free from their web site.

The game is designed to be a gritty-superhero game, but can be played just fine without the supers aspect. I highly recommend this game for ease of play balanced against a somewhat "realistic" approach (i.e. you get shot, you're hurting... don't get shot...) to combat.

Try The Swing. It's a game system I developed and run it as a highly realistic combat system (the core game has magick in it, but it really is fun to ignore it and just fight it out sometimes and the next product we are working on will do just that all the combat and no fluff).

Anyways here are some highlights:

Here is the basic flow of a given combat round [10 Second Combat Rounds]:
1. Pick a Combat Mode
a. Choose from Focused, Aware and Alert
b. These modes will determine what Actions and Reactions a character can perform
2. Everyone divides their Combat Points into two categories
a. Action Points - AP (used to take actions)
b. Reaction Action Points - RAP (used to react to another actions)
c. Any number of points from their Combat Points can be set aside to either category. But once set aside they cannot be regained until the next turn’s allocation stage
d. Everyone declares their first move (before initiative rolls)
3. Initiative
a. Roll Perception Check (just the dice in Perception)
b. Ties going to those who have higher Perception die codes, if they have the same die code – highest Intuition, then Dexterity, then Intelligence, Wits, Attitude, Strength and finally Charisma
4. The character who won initiative acts first
a. If their first maneuver is now compromised by the initiative results, the player can
i. Continue with action and hope all works out
ii. Spend two Combat Points to negate your first action (not including those APs for the action itself)
b. Each character spends each of his actions points.
c. Any actions points not spent are ignored until next round.
5. Damage is applied, if any, immediately
6. Then the character with the next highest initiative acts, then the next and so on.


Combat Mode
An individual can only act against or react to those events that transpire in their chosen Combat Mode’s Area. A person can change modes only at the beginning of turns.
Characters cannot act or react to any rear events or events outside of their combat mode. Once a character has been attacked, successful or unsuccessful, and the character changes facing, the character may then act/react to events that were previously outside of their Combat Mode, as they are now within their Combat Mode.
If a character forgot to list a combat mode for the round, or for instances where the combat mode has not been chosen yet, assume the characters are in Alert Mode.
Focused – You are focused on a task or on an individual. Your attention is focused to just that area directly in front of your vision. Character may only make actions/reactions against those targets in the focused zone. Actions and Reactions receive a +2 step bonus.
Aware – You are at normal perceptive levels. You are aware of both your immediate frontage and your periphery. Character may make actions/reactions against those targets in both the focused zone and the aware zones only. Actions and Reactions receive a +1 step bonus.
Alert – You are on a defensive guard, more a paranoid stance than anything. Your head keeps moving from side to side keeping tabs on all those around you (except in you rear). Character may make actions/reactions against those targets from any zone except the rear zone. Actions and Reactions receive no bonus.


Initiative
Who performs their actions First? Second? Last? This is where Initiative comes into play. The Swing uses a Secret Initiative System. In real life you do not always know who has the upper hand, you therefore have to base your actions off of what you think of the situation will be. This is how Initiative works in The Swing.
First, everyone divides up their available Combat Points into Action and Reaction Points. Then every one must declare their first action, with a minimum of 1 AP cost. This action has to include an expenditure of APs, it can not be a free action (such as, I scan my immediate area or I look at my watch, in order to save APs). Then everyone rolls their Perception Die Code to determine the order of combat.
I. Roll your Perception Die Code only
II. The character with the highest total goes first, lowest total goes last.
III. In the case of a tie, the character who has the higher Perception die codes acts, if they have the same die code – highest Intuition, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wits, Attitude, Strength and finally Charisma.
A character must perform their 1st action (how else would we see those individuals sticking their heads out and end up getting shot at). A character might be able to alter their course of action. In order to cancel the action, a character must spend 2 Combat Points (these can come from any combination of Action and Reaction Points). The action is canceled and the character has lost the APs set aside for the action (in addition to the 2 Combat Points cost for cancellation).
A character's first action must take place even before a dodge may be performed. Therefore, cancellation is a must for any character that is acted upon before their initiative has begun and wishes to dodge another's action. The character can opt not to cancel their action, however, and forgo the dodge.


Here are examples of how some of the mechanics work:

Burst Mode
Burst Mode is where the weapon is fired in 3 or 2 Round Bursts. Because Burst Mode essentially relies on one bullet missing a little to the left of the target and one bullet to miss a little to the right of the target so that one bullet may hit the target, the attacker may not aim while in burst mode.

Spread Patterns
Both an advantage and a disadvantage, automatic weapons fire tends to fly all over the area. As an advantage, you will be able hit multiple targets with just one pull of the trigger. The disadvantage of this is that sometimes those targets might be your own team.

Other things we consider:
Buckshot spread, supported fire, psychological effects, knockdown, full auto fire, 'walking the target', reading weapons, etc.


Unique things we do...

Dodge [Reaction Only]
When a target dodges or evades, they are actively seeking shelter from an attack. Without shelter from an attack the dodge is harder to perform. Shelter is defined as an object or objects such that the target can use to shield the attack with. Common shelter items are doors, walls, crates, tables and holes (must provide at least 50% cover).
The dodge is good for a single attack from any one attacker against a character during that action phase. Meaning as soon as the attacker’s action is over, the next action will require the target to dodge again. However, the target should now be behind cover, unless they dodged without shelter.

Aimed / Called Shots
When a character takes the time to fire at a target to guarantee that his shot will hit the target, then this becomes an aimed shot. When making an aimed shot the character not only chooses a target, but chooses the hit location that they are aiming at.


Weapons are deadly in The Swing. A shotgun to, well just about anywhere, will kill. No walking away from that. I made the weapons so they reflect a more realistic way of damage and death. Being shot is a very serious action in this game and there is no such thing as, "well his gun only does 1 wound and I think I can take it". Wound effects, even the smallest one, can make or break a combat session.


On top of all this, you may be wondering about the number crounching. Well the first few games might seem overwelling because I have covered tons of possibilies and options, but after about 3 session we have found that most people can follow along real easy. We are able to have big combat sessions of about 8 people now in about 1-2 hours total from start to finish, 3 if you take your time.

The difficulty system moves in steps of 4 (4, 8, 12, 16, 20 up to 44), but everything is listed as a -1 or +1 step with normal difficulty of 16. So a -1 step penaly would be end up being a 20, or a +3 step bonus would be a 4.

BTW, blantant plug here....

I am running a monthly special for The Swing. Get the pdf bundle for only $10 (regularly $14.95) and get two chances to win a print copy of The Reality Guide. But this is only until Oct. 31st. Get it at RPGNOW @ http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=3013

Just as a note of someone who is experienced with real firearms and their actual effects (as opposed to some game designer basing his opinions on some other game, as seems to be common) pistols are not very lethal and don't have a ton of 'stopping power' against a determined human being. Bleeding out, CNS and heart-hits are the only way that pistols actually put people down, they have no jellying-tissue and shockwave effect of the rifle round. So if you want 'realistic' then hit-points just aren't going to cut it - handguns stop many people they shoot, handguns kill very few people they shoot. Rifles of .30+ tend to stop, kill and/or horribly maim people.
I could shoot an average person 4 or 5 times with a .357 magnum and he could expect to live and may not even have any permanent damage, whereas one shot from my Mauser 98 could very well collapse your lung or blow a limb off.

Rather than hit points in The Swing, weapons create wounds. Each wound varyies depending on the weapon or ammo type. Each wound type creates effects that play on characters. So while a player could take a few .357 shots, he will not a happy camper.