After reading the advice in the DMG (and MonteCook.com) I have tried to create Hobgoblins and Lizardfolk as PC Races. My intention was to create a race that could be played from 1st level - without the ECL causing imbalance. I used the optional Racial Levels (Arcana Unearthed & Unearthed Arcana) for each race, to enable them the chance to realize their full MM potential.

This is my first attempt at such a task and I would appreciate input, feedback, criticism and suggestions on what I have so far. The races need to be internally balanced with the PC races from PH and Arcana Unearthed.

HOBGOBLIN RACIAL TRAITS
Str +1
Dex +1
Wis -2
Cha -2
Medium Size
Base Speed 30'
Darkvision 60'
+4 Racial Bonus to Wilderness Survival skill checks.

HOBGOBLIN RACIAL LEVELS
Level 1: +1 BAB, +0 Fort, +0 Ref, +0 Will, Spec: +1 Str, +1 Dex.
Level 2: +2 BAB, +1 Fort, +1 Ref, +0 Will, Spec: +2 Con.
Level 3: +3 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, +1 Will, Spec: +2 Con.

LIZARDFOLK RACIAL TRAITS
+1 Str
+1 Con
-2 Int
Medium Size
Base Speed 30'
Hold Breath
Natural Weapons
+4 Racial Bonus to Balance, Jump, Swim Skill Checks.

LIZARDFOLK RACIAL LEVELS
Level 1: +0 BAB, +0 Fort, +1 Ref, +0 Will, Spec: +1 Natural AC, +1 Str
Level 2: +0 BAB, +0 Fort, +2 Ref, +0 Will, Spec: +2 Natural AC, +1 Con
Level 3: +1 BAB, +1 Fort, +3 Ref, +0 Will, Spec: +2 Natural AC, MultiAttack Feat (MM)

Cheers
Llowellen

Hi there! Welcome to the Forge!

Is this for an Independent Game Design? Because it looks, frankly, like Dungeons and Dragons.

I'd try to redirect you to a forum here that's more appropriate to your question, but if I'm understanding it correctly there really isn't one. Minor modifications to existing mainstream RPGs aren't in the Forge's mission statement. Perhaps someone more in touch with modern D&D communities can give some links?

Hiya,

Actually, it's a perfectly reasonable topic for RPG Theory, which is not restricted to independent games.

If anyone wants to dive into a good D&D discussion, go for it!

Best,
Ron

Hi, Ian, welcome to the Forge!

First off, I have to say that Hobgoblins and Lizardmen are my two favorite D&D races. Good choices for a first work.

That said, I think these need more work before they're really ready to play with.

Here are some considerations.

First, never ever racial modifiers in units of +1, +3, +5 or anything like that. In 3.x, attribute modifiers should always be +2. The reason for this is that it limits the usefulness of choosing specific races -- as it stands, if you have two odd attributes, you would want to make a Lizard Man or Hobgoblin only, because you'd effectively be getting an extra +2 to one attribute. This is a big deal.

Secondly, your races are severely lacking in the color that makes them really cool. Look at the races in the PHB. They have cultural skill bonuses, little special abilties, etc. So I don't want to see things like "+4 Racial Bonus to Wilderness Survival Checks" so much as I want to see "because they spent a lot of time in the wilderness, Hobgoblins gain a +2 to Survival checks." Also, you have a great chance to do things with the Hobgoblin's militaristic culture. How about "Because of their militaristic culture, all Hobgoblins are trained in one martial weapon?" Similarly, I'd like to see more to the Lizard Men than "hold breath" or the tail bonuses. What makes them cool? Add in stuff from that.

Anyway, I have more to write, but perhaps the next note. Good luck!

yrs--
--Ben

Welcome Ian,

Yeah, the traditional nifty abilities, tempered by the usual 'it's good in just the right situation, not every situation' requirements.

Hi Ben,

I don't know about your concern for stat bonuses which aren't in two's.

Basically these only will affect stats which are odd themselves (like 13, or 15). This does mean that a player will have to put odd stats in those areas the race gets a bonus from to get any immediate effect...thus reducing choice somewhat. But otherwise, what's the prob? Like the half orc, bonuses that don't pay off by themselves can be balanced out by other abilities.

I love a good stat block, but...

Whenever you're taking a race and making it playable, you'd might as well re-invent the whole race. Palladium did an admirable job of making monster races playable (in fact, hob-goblins and lizard men are both playable in that system; might be worth a look).

I'm less worried about the stats, though, and more into the idea of "What would these races contribute, story-wise, to the campaign?" I'm very narrativist, and while D&D 3.x can do some great narrativist capaigning (the Wheel of Time adaptation, while buggy, kicked some serious ass), too often people focus on the stats, the gamist and simulationist aspects of D&D play.

Are you using one of the established D&D settings? Are you creating your own world? How are these races going to be viewed, galavanting around with a bunch of "civilized" folk? How are people going to react to having them in their towns and cities? What are the major benefits to playing one of these monster races?

I love a good stat-block, but a great Racial Description is always so much better.

~Kris
"Making D20 scream with narrativist passion."

Noon wrote: Hi Ben,

I don't know about your concern for stat bonuses which aren't in two's.

Basically these only will affect stats which are odd themselves (like 13, or 15). This does mean that a player will have to put odd stats in those areas the race gets a bonus from to get any immediate effect...thus reducing choice somewhat. But otherwise, what's the prob? Like the half orc, bonuses that don't pay off by themselves can be balanced out by other abilities.

...I am a damned fool for playing anything but a lizardman, because I can get an effective extra stat bonus just from making the correct attribute placements.

Jinx wrote:

...I am a damned fool for playing anything but a lizardman, because I can get an effective extra stat bonus just from making the correct attribute placements.

...Until you hit 4th Clevel, at which point you start getting level-based stat bonuses and those odd +1 and +3 bonuses become just as valuable as the others.

..Until you hit 4th Clevel, at which point you start getting level-based stat bonuses and those odd +1 and +3 bonuses become just as valuable as the others.

BL> Well, yes, until I hit 8th level... And so on until 20th.

Since you didn't mention it in your original post as one of the resources you're using, I thought I'd mention that in the 3.5e of the Monster Manual, Lizardfolk have a section on how one would stat up a PC using it as a race. I suspect the same is for Hobgoblin, though I only have firsthand knowledge of the Lizardfolk.

It's not exactly what you're looking for, because although it gives the flavor text and specialty skill bonuses, stat mods, etc, it doesn't have the 1-3 level advancement you're shooting for. But you still might find it useful to check out and see how the 3.5e guys did it. (Incidently, in the MM, Lizardfolk are equavalent to 2nd level characters.)

Apologies for putting this in the wrong forum initially - but thanks to everyone for the discussion.

I fully agree with everyone who suggests more flavour and text - this has been my intention all along, the purpose of this exercise is just to nail down the dry old mechanics. The flavour is something I do not feel I will struggle with.

To put all of this in context - I am creating my own world. Hobgoblins are the dominant PC race in the southern pole, they will differ considerably from the cultural perspective they are presented with in the MM, although physically they will be the same. My lizard folk fill the same niche in a South American-type continent. As these are PC race options though, they need to balanced with the more standard PC races - without depriving them of their individuality (the lizard folk presented in the MM for example is actually balanced against a 4th level PC, not a 2nd, when you factor in a single class level and two racial levels on top of the LA +1).

I agree with both sides of the even/odd ability mods discussion and can see both points of view. However I will stick with the standard set by the existing rules and try to keep to evens, although this is a little harder to balance in my view.

For example, if the lizard folk gets +2 Str +2 Con -2 Int at first level, I would be tempted to apply -2 Wis AND -2 Cha to balance. Lizards (in my world) will be a martial people and the -2 Int penalty not likely to phase them much. The Swim movement is a good suggestion, I will include this.

Thank you all again for this discussion,

Cheers
Ian

For example, if the lizard folk gets +2 Str +2 Con -2 Int at first level, I would be tempted to apply -2 Wis AND -2 Cha to balance. Lizards (in my world) will be a martial people and the -2 Int penalty not likely to phase them much. The Swim movement is a good suggestion, I will include this.

This remains a work in progress - I have expanded the lizardfolk entry taking into consideration the advice given here. The flavour text is obviously written with my own world in mind, but any feedback there would be great too - these may not be the culturally typical lizardfolk of the MM.

Continued feedback would be great.

Many thanks,

Rajiinian (Lizard Folk)
Rajiinians are the amphibious, coastal dwellers of the jungles of Rajiin. These peoples are primarily hunters, fishers and food gatherers but in two distinctly separate areas – Northern and Southern Rajiin divided by the all-but impassable wall of the Spine of Rajiin.

Personality: Rajiiinians are an innovative people, it is testament to their skill as creative thinkers and builders that some of the most advanced early civilizations were built deep in the jungles of Rajiin without the benefit of the wheel or of metal tools or beasts of burden. Intrepid builders and inventors Rajiinians are a people curious about worlds beyond their own. They extensively study the stars, plotting constellations and planetary movements and were among the first races to discover the existence of the outer planes. Rajiinians are devout, very independent, loyal to their own traditions and laws, yet respectfully apathetic towards others.

Physical Description: Rajiinians are a reptilian people. They are blessed with powerfully tall and muscular humanoid frames covered with scales that may vary in colouration from gray to brown with a yellowish-green being the most common. Their chests and stomachs, as well as their inner arms tend to be a much lighter shade than the remainder of their body. Eyes are typically a pale yellow in colouration - pupil-less and double-lidded similar to a lizards. A powerful prehensile tail some three to four feet in length is used for balance and swimming. A Rajiinian's hands are humanoid in appearance but feature long and sharp talons, as do their feet. Prominent dorsal spines may run the length of a Rajiinian’s body from the forehead, down the spine to the tip of his tail.

Relations: Rajiinians respect their own kind and typically have good relations among themselves even on the rare occasions different Rajiinian societies may interact. The mountain dwelling kobolds are viewed at best as a nuisance and a pest and at worse (given their tendency to raid or lair within ancient holy ruins) foul heathens that deserve no less than to be hunted. Werejaguars are respected and loved by the Rajiinians and afforded a special place in Rajiinian society – often as priests or seers. Rajiinians are not aware of the difference between the two Courts of the Fey – although they are all too aware of their presence - they treat both equally with a measure of superstitious fear and dread.

Homeland: All major Rajiinian civilization favour the coastal regions primarily and the swamplands and river plains secondly. The higher and cooler elevations of the mountains hold many unknown superstitious dangers (and allures) for the average Rajiinian and are typically avoided by all but the most adventurous.

Religion: Rajiinians are a devout people who worship their own ancestors primarily, believing that they remain to guide their own descendants with a wisdom gained only through death. This ancestral worship fits into a pantheon of sorts with a half-lizard, half-jaguar aspect of Anwen at its head. Sacrifice and ritualistic cannibalism remains a significant part of Rajiinian religion.

Language: Two major spoken languages exist among the Rajiinians, each with their own regional dialects and variations and a common hieroglyphic written language.

Male Names: Acatapec, Tel’ Chiquel, Tel’Rajil, Xuca
Female Names: Chol, Itza, Ix’atza, Pocom

Racial Traits:
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. Rajiinians are a physically strong and resilient people although somewhat aloof to strangers. They rely more heavily on common sense and intuition than on intellect.

Rajiinian base speed is 30 feet. As an amphibious people they also enjoy a base Swim speed of 30 feet.

Medium: As Medium creatures, Rajiinians have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Hold Breath: A Rajiinian can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to four times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4) and bite (1d4).

Automatic Languages: National Language.

Because of their tails, Rajiinians have a +4 racial bonus on Jump, Swim, and Balance checks.

Racial Levels: A Rajiinian can take up to three levels in ‘Lizardfolk’ as a class to develop their racial qualities more fully.

Lizardfolk Levels
Rajiinians can take up to three levels in ‘lizardfolk’ at any time. Not all Rajiinians, however, take racial levels (or all three of them).
Hit Die: 1d8
Skill Points at 1st Character Level: (2+ Intelligence) x 4
Skill Points at Higher Level: 2+ Intelligence bonus
“Class” Skills : Balance (Dex), Craft (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Wilderness Survival (Wis).

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Rajiinians with levels only in lizardfolk (no actual class levels) are proficient in the use of all simple weapons and light armours and shields.

Level 1 : +0 BAB, +0 Fort, +2 Reflex, +0 Will, +1 Natural AC, +1 Str
Level 2: +1 BAB, +0 Fort, +3 Reflex, +0 Will, +2 Natural AC, +1 Con
Level 3: +2 BAB, +1 Fort, +3 Reflex, +1 Will, +2 Natural AC, Multiattack Feat

Ben Lehman wrote:
If I have a stat set that looks like

8
10
12
12
14
18

Then there is no reason that I should play a Lizardman at all. Or, rather, I will be at a considerable disadvantage compared to the other races in the game, as I will be missing out on one of my stat bonuses.

Conversely, if I have a stat set that looks like:

8
10
12
13
15
18

I am a damned fool for playing anything but a lizardman, because I can get an effective extra stat bonus just from making the correct attribute placements.

Clear?

yrs--
--Ben

Here is my same treatment given to the Hobgoblin, again I would really appreciate any and all feedback.
Many thanks,

Shivir (Hobgoblin)
The Shivir inhabit one of the most inclement regions in the World of Llowellen. Their land is mostly tundra - low, flat, treeless plains where the ground remains permanently frozen except for a few inches of the surface during the brief summer season. Although some groups are settled on rivers and depend on fishing, and others follow inland caribou herds, most Shivir traditionally have lived primarily as hunters of seals, walrus, and whales, and the structure and ethos of their culture have always been fundamentally oriented to the sea.

Personality: The Shivir have managed to eke a living and carve a society within an exceptionally inhospitable environment and this has engendered them with a great respect for physical constitution and simple practicality. They are brutally honest and upfront with little patience for meekness or deception within themselves or others. Survival is paramount in the reality of the Shivir’s daily life, but they still find the time to appreciate food, drink, dance and romance. They know that death may be upon them at any moment and intend to experience the moment in which they find themselves. They fear little, except the hostility of their environment, raiding minotaurs and the mystical fey.

Physical Description: Shivir are a tough people hardened by a lifetime of crossing the tundra. Their shoulders and hips are wide, their chests broad and muscular. Their skin is permanently blushed from the frigid winds and takes on a dark orange or red-orange tone with prominently large blue or red tinted noses. Hobgoblins’ eyes are yellowish or dark brown, while their teeth are yellow. Both Shivir men and women let their dark reddish-brown and dark-grey hair grow long and unkempt, men studiously braid their long moustaches and beards.

Relations: The Shivir have mixed relations with the goblins and orcs with whom they compete for hunting and living rights. It is not uncommon for one Shivir village to enslave goblins and be allied with orcs, just as another wars with all of its neighbours and yet another seeks a quieter life avoiding trouble from all comers. Without exception, the Shivir hate and fear the minotaurs who often raid them to take slaves or food themselves. The Shivir are largely unaware of the fey – except in fearful rumour and legend.

Homeland: For the Shivir peoples merely surviving their daily life is often adventure enough. They frequently must move camp, uprooting entire villages and trekking across the tundra in order to find the next safe cave or sheltered cove to make their home – and often with goblins, orcs or minotaurs dogging their every step. During the First Age, Shivir will not be encountered outside of the frozen environs of the Sunless South.

Religion: Shivir religion has its basis in Anwen s teachings but it otherwise animistic with the Shivir worshipping the spirits of most of the native animals and even important features of the landscape. Shivir religion however teaches of a supreme ruler of the spirit animals and in a vague deification of the forces of nature – Anwen.

Language: Prior to 40’000 PL the Shivir had no real spoken or written language, rather they would communicate with a bestial sub-language of grunts, gestures and body language that could be understood only by themselves. Since 40’000 PL that primitive language has evolved into Shivor. Shivor is the local tongue spoken by all of the Shivir peoples but with sometimes extreme local dialect variation. Only the tribal leader or shaman might be learned enough to speak a second or third language and this would vary depending on the minor race any particular tribe has the most direct contact with.

Male Names: Kavik, Malik, Quroq, Sermeq.
Female Names: Acadia, Igdlo, Kirima, Nuna.

Racial Traits:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. Shivir are a physically tough people long accustomed to running across the tundra, yet they are a simple and uncomplicated people who often seem rude or abrupt to others.

Shivir base speed is 30 feet.

Medium: As Medium creatures, Shivir have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Darkvision 60’: Shivir can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and Shivir can function just fine with no light at all.

Automatic Languages: Shivir (sub), Shivir (verbal).

+4 racial bonus on Wilderness Survival checks.

Racial Levels: A Shivir can take up to three levels in ‘hobgoblin’ as a class to develop their racial qualities more fully.

Hobgoblin Levels
Shivir can take up to three levels in ‘hobgoblin’ at any time. Not all Shivir, however, take racial levels (or all three of them).
Hit Die: 1d8
Skill Points at 1st Character Level: (2+ Intelligence) x 4
Skill Points at Higher Level: 2+ Intellignce bonus
“Class” Skills : Climb (Str), Heal (Wis), Intimidate ((Cha), Intuit Direction (Wis), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Sneak (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Wilderness Survival (Wis).
Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Shivir with levels only in hobgoblin (no actual class levels) are proficient in the use of all simple weapons and light armours and shields.
Level 1: +1 BAB, +0 Fort, +0 Ref, +0 Will, +1 Str, +1 Dex
Level 2: +2 BAB, +1 Fort, +1 Ref, +0 Will, +2 Con
Level 3: +3 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, +1 Will, +2 Con

Two things: I notticed you killed some of the AC bonus that wild lizard folk get. I thought it was kinda a nice feature (considering how much the rest of their package (at least in the MM) sucks).

The flavor text was looking nice though. I have a strong love for Lizardfolk. That and Kobolds. Poor kobolds, being beaten up for trying to stay dry *sniff sniff, wipes eyes*.

Second: (Not to the author of this thread but more so about D&D stats) There are multiple ways to create stats (the best being the point buy system listed in the DMG (3.5 page 169)). If you use the point buy you can determine how odd/even your stats are. And as I tell people, you always want either 6 even numbers or 5 even and a single odd number. That's because in going to level 20 you get +5 total stat points. If you start with two odd numbers then after you turn your odds into evens you will have +3 left over, and still a single 'wasted' stat increase. If you start with a single odd (or actually any odd number of odds), you'll get a full increase of stats (the last stat bonus will change a modifier).

I actually have a PC who's going to be aiming for an uneven Dex in the long run because of how certain feat requirements work out. Anywhoo, I have to vote for +1 and -1 stat bonuses being a bad idea, because it generates a 'difference' between classes that has not been seen before, effectively casting certain stat sets to better as one race or another.

The Half-Orc isn't really getting shafted on stats though, it's just casting a race into one class or another (a typical thing in D&D since it first came about). Fighters and Barbarians don't feel much of a penalty for low Intelligence or for low Charisma. Bards and Wizards, well, it just hurts to play one of them as a Half-orc. If I were playing a wizard character, I wouldn't hesitate to pick a race with a -6 strength bonus, -6 charisma bonus and a +4 intelligence bonus (at least if I played characters based on stats).

It seems to me that both of your proposed races are overpowered for a no level adjustment races:

Your lizardmen are strictly better than a half-orc, an extra +2 con and natural weapons.

I don't have the DMG guide to stat mods handy, but I'm pretty certain +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha is not considered balanced either.

The Hobgoblin levels also seem a bit good - essentially a Hobgoblin fighter is swapping a feat or two for +1 str, +1 dex, +4 con. Although they have a lower hit die, the con bonus will more than make up for it.

Nice flavour though on both races.

John - I am not sure what you mean by my 'killing some of the AC bonus' for the lizardfolk'. This is not something I have adjusted thus far on this forum. My intention to put Natural AC in the racial levels, however was deliberate as this could of course be a quickly unbalancing factor.

I thank everyone for the continued feedback I have recieved it has been very valuable. I have a few revisions based on this feedback - and that recieved on other lists - and this is my updated version. The flavour text remains the same, but I will not reproduce it here for length.

I continue to welcome feedback and criticism.

Hobgoblin Racial Traits:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. Shivir are a physically tough people long accustomed to running across the tundra, yet they are a simple and uncomplicated people who often seem rude or abrupt to others.

Shivir base speed is 30 feet.

Medium: As Medium creatures, Shivir have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Darkvision 60’: Shivir can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and Shivir can function just fine with no light at all.

Automatic Languages: Shivir (sub), Shivir (verbal).

+4 racial bonus on Wilderness Survival checks.

Racial Levels: A Shivir can take up to three levels in ‘hobgoblin’ as a class to develop their racial qualities more fully.

Hobgoblin Levels
Shivir can take up to three levels in ‘hobgoblin’ at any time. Not all Shivir, however, take racial levels (or all three of them).
Hit Die: 1d8
Skill Points at 1st Character Level: (2+ Intelligence) x 4
Skill Points at Higher Level: 2+ Intellignce bonus
“Class” Skills : Climb (Str), Heal (Wis), Intimidate ((Cha), Intuit Direction (Wis), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Sneak (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Wilderness Survival (Wis).
Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Shivir with levels only in hobgoblin (no actual class levels) are proficient in the use of all simple weapons and light armours and shields.

Level 1: +1 BAB, +0 Fort, +0 Ref, +0 Will, +1 Str, +1 Dex
Level 2: +2 BAB, +1 Fort, +1 Ref, +0 Will, +1 Con
Level 3: +3 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, +1 Will, +1 Con

Lizardfolk Racial Traits:
+2 Constitution, -2 Charisma. Rajiinians are a physically resilient people although somewhat aloof to strangers.

Rajiinian base speed is 20 feet. As a cold-blooded race they can often be sluggish and reluctant to exert energy in rapid movement. As an amphibious people they also enjoy a base Swim speed of 30 feet.

Medium: As Medium creatures, Rajiinians have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Dash: Once per day, per 3 levels (beginning at third level), a Rajiinian can increase its base movement to 50 feet for number of rounds equal to half its Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round).

Hold Breath: A Rajiinian can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to four times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4) and bite (1d4).

Automatic Languages: National Language.

Because of their tails, Rajiinians have a +4 racial bonus on Jump, Swim, and Balance checks.

Racial Levels: A Rajiinian can take up to three levels in ‘Lizardfolk’ as a class to develop their racial qualities more fully.

Lizardfolk Levels
Rajiinians can take up to three levels in ‘lizardfolk’ at any time. Not all Rajiinians, however, take racial levels (or all three of them).
Hit Die: 1d8
Skill Points at 1st Character Level: (2+ Intelligence) x 4
Skill Points at Higher Level: 2+ Intelligence bonus
“Class” Skills : Balance (Dex), Craft (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Wilderness Survival (Wis).
Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Rajiinians with levels only in lizardfolk (no actual class levels) are proficient in the use of all simple weapons and light armours and shields.

Level 1 : +0 BAB, +0 Fort, +2 Reflex, +0 Will, +1 Natural AC, +1 Str
Level 2: +1 BAB, +0 Fort, +3 Reflex, +0 Will, +2 Natural AC, +1 Con
Level 3: +2 BAB, +1 Fort, +3 Reflex, +1 Will, +2 Natural AC, Multiattack Feat