Hey Folks,

Outside of GenCon, my sales of CoS have pretty much been non-existant and I am at a loss at what to do to get things going.

I was thinking Actual Play posts at places like here and RPG.net might help, but first you need people who own the game to be posters and on a whole, the impression I have gotten to those I have personally sold to, they aren't all that interested in that kind of thing. I've posted my own Actual Play posts, but I don't think they have been very helpful overall.

I also know that the common wisdom is that cons are a big way to get folks to buy, but I can only attribute three sales of my game at GenCon to demos (I don't think it demos well). Also I really only have time for maybe two or three cons a year.

Anyone here have some helpful suggestions? What things have others found success with? What have you discovered doesn't work at all?

Keith

Hi Bob,

I think I'll buy your game based on this post, how about that? :)

I would say that Actual Play posts do help, especially ones that detail some of the mechanics behind the story, otherwise it could really be any system and doesn't help sell your game - IMO.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

You certainly won't regret getting "Conspiracy of Shadows". It's brilliantly written and draws you deeper and deeper into a world of mystery and terror. A great read.

If you're going to purchase it, please go buy it at Indie Press Revolution and you'll get FREE Priority Mail shipping within the U.S. on orders of $25 or more and reduced shipping abroad.

I will say that, as a consumer, Forge Actual Play posts have been the juiciest hook I find. I've bought a number of games based purely on reading one or two good threads; I've played and then recommended many others. When I'm thinking about checking out a game, it's one of the first places I look.

Ultimately, the only kind of advertising that I've seen be effective comes from word of mouth. There's not a whole lot you can do to affect that, aside from having a good product in the first place. However, there are some ways to go about getting people interested. I think of it very much like farming - you go around your field and plant seeds at certain intervals, then do what you can to help them grow (but mostly it's a lot of watching). So... where to plant?

First, look for gaming clubs. There are a lot of these kinds of these things, often attached to universities, but often not. Send the club a copy of the game. Since many clubs maintain libraries of games that people can borrow, this may put that book through dozens of hands. Plus, if one or two people get excited, they have the club contacts to share it with.

Second, look for "playtesters". Your game may be finished and playtested already, but I've found that groups respond well to being given a chance to test the game, not just play it. I tell them it's part of an ongoing effort to make sure the game is as good as it can be (which not only sounds good, but is actually true even if it's not the real reason I want them to play). Ask them to send you a review or post some sort of Actual Play experience as part of the testing.

Plant these groups in areas where you don't think you have any gamers. A lot of my efforts have coincided with distributors in foreign countries, and it seems to have been effective. We've planted groups in Australia, Canada, Ireland, Israel and different regions of the US.

You can also send books to bookstores, but I've had mixed results with these. One store owner (when I checked back in six months later to run demos) had left the book behind the counter, so obviously no one saw it. Others have sold the book, but still didn't think it was worth ordering more (still, it did get into the hands of someone who liked it enough to plunk down money). The best is when the store owner gives it to an active patron who will do demos or playtests. I know of at least two people in the RPG biz who insist that the best possible marketing is to start sending books to random stores, but I'm not entirely convinced (especially if you aren't available through distribution).

I find taking some time out to do demos locally does wonders for my sales~
I live in a smaller area, so maybe it helps getting into some of the shops (Wow! You published your own game! Sure you can put a table up today!).
Spots that have worked for me:

- Local hobby shop, after pimping it over the local radio morning show ("Why yes that is correct, it is a cool game, its got all this cool stuff, come down, check it out!")
- Local paper in conjunction with the above: someone came down, checked it out, ran a picture and two paragraphs. I still have people saying "Thats you? Cool! I want a deck!"
- Making an event out of it and advertising week/two weeks in advance- just did that for Halloween ("All Hallows Eve" promotion), sold $120 worth of merch. 0 advertising, just got word out amongst my players. Even had the event ran in two cities a couple hours apart.
- Getting others to do it. I have kids in several schools right now who feel all cool and important that they're part of the "Street Team"- they organize demos at lunches, they get the literature and word out there, and drive sales at local shops and the website. In return, they get sneak peaks at whats coming up, the "opprotunity" to test new cards, and getting a shirt for them as well.

Get the existing players uber-hyped, they'll do the work for you ^_^

Hi, Keith.

Don't discount reviews. An rpg.net review of an unknown product nets over a thousand views. If the review is informative, maybe a few sales, too. I wouldn't worry about whether the review is positive or negative, but just that it's there and informative. Don't hesitate to ask folks you know to write a review, just give them leave to be honest. I know you've already gotten one review. Have it reveiewed again. and again. It gives the impression that people are talking about this game.

If you have a lot of online time and want to promote here & rpg.net and other discussion sites, there's the method that MJ Young uses with Multiverser. It goes a little something like this: Someone posts a general RPG-related question like "Could you do X in an RPG?". Discussion ensues. Mr. Young chimes in with "In Multiverser, we also had to figure out how to do X. We did it this way for reasons Y and Z." The result is people knowing a little more about his game and seeing how it is relevant to their own concerns. If I had more online time, I'd do more of this. The trick is to keep it very much on-topic, or else folks will think you're spamming the forum.

I really think persistance pays off here, Keith. The market for indie press products is much slower moving than the typical retail market (with it's three-month peak and crash). Constantly promoting your products and getting people to play gradually builds critical mass, and eventually you reach a threshold where you have enough players to create a self-sustaining audience. I really think putting in front of as many people as possible is good.

With Bulldogs!, I had just about given up doing conventions. No one was signing up for my games and I was getting discouraged. No sooner had I decided it wasn't worth it than people began asking why I wasn't at this con or that one, saying they had wanted to play.

I really think we need to lower our expectations for the first six months or so, and just plug away with con promotions, online posting, and just general pimping.

Lots of really great info in this thread so far, but there are a couple things I'd add...

Though none of us (likely) have much of a budget for ads, I know there are some good, inexpensive sources for promotions. Banners on high profile RPG sites (such as GamingReport) are fairly cheap and can be run in short increments.

Also important is free publicity through posted news. Create news-worthy events in conjunction with your game (i.e. "New free adventure is now available for download from our website...") and send a copy of the release to every news presenting site you know of.

Hi Keith,

Thinking back, the biggest boon to the first three months of sales for Burning Wheel was a massive flame war about the game on RPG.net. We sold at least 50 copies because of that one thread from December to January. And then another 50 due to the next (and final) flamewar thread. And I've talked to a suprising number of people since then who read those threads and got into the game later on -- they'd forgotten about the flamewar, but remembered hearing about the game.

I'm not advocating picking fights in forums, but contentious and controversial public discussions definitely generate attention. And it's attention you want.

After that, maintaining a steady presence at local cons and on the forums really had a positive effect on the game's sales.

RPG.net reviews have always been good. Follow them up immediately with another thread/post. In fact, all reviews are good, positive or negative. I've got a fairly critical review of the game on my site, it's the most read review (by hits). But it defintely hasn't negatively impacted my sales.

I think many people feel a small press game is a one note wonder -- sounding once and then fading away. Compared to the obiquity of rpg brand names like Wizards and White Wolf, our games seem small and fleeting. As publishers, I think, we've got to fight to keep our brand/game/ideas forefront in people's minds. Not as an exercise in mind control, but just so we can pry a little attention away from the big guys. Most folks who sit down and play small press rpgs find them very satisfying -- it's the getting them to sit down part that's difficult.

In my case, I've tried to keep my game afloat with postcards, conventions and forum posts, backed with a presence in local stores and a small distro shot. It takes a lot of work. But it can be done.

-L

Hey other Keith,

Oddly I am right there with you. GenCon and Aug was awesome & Sept was even more so (about double from Aug.). These have been my two best months for The Swing. But Oct. saw a drop in sales (still better than the average months but only by a $1 or two). Nov. is not looking good either.

I have 4 reviews at RPGNOW, 1 at RPG.net and 1 at GamingReport all at least a 4 but most a 4.5 or 5.

I post to every forumn about every coupon I offer, every news article, etc. Last month I even ran a promo for a free print copy. I got only 3 entries.

Locally its not a problem, but where I live there is only 1 FLGS in a 100 mile radius and it sales well there (more than almost any other non-WOTC product).

I even got alittle promo from Mortality.net radio. I won a contest and the guys sat and asked me questions about The Swing for 10 minutes (I did not even know I was on the radio because of a delay, when I got off the phone all of a sudden there I was).

On top of everything, I am about to release the latest editted version in print form this month. Hopefully it will be the last GREAT edit. I have spent tons of time on correcting typos and having people read for continuity and such.


But I am like you, what else can I do to promote? I really want to hook up with someone like Key20 or that site you are with, but all of that depends on the new print version.

Hello all, I am finishing up an RPG due out in January and I had a couple questions relating to this topic if someone doesn't mind sparing some time for a newb.

First, and if this is a totally brainless question please forgive me, but how does one go about getting their product reviewed on sites like RPG.net?

What promotions (game demos, book signings, giveaways, advertising in swag bags, etc.) have people found to be most effective at conventions?

Same question, but what methods are most effective for promoting from the website?

If I've repeated a question asked elsewhere I apologize. Thanks in advance.

Keith,

I got turned onto CoS after reading about it on rpg.net and NerdNYC. Not from any reviews either. I think the first thing that interested me was some thread on rpg.net about conspiracies. I then went and checked out the demo, and liking what I saw, went and ordered a copy (and one of my friends had me order him one as well).

I'm no game designer (just a fan), but one thing that I do think is good is what others have suggested: Keep yourself in the public eye. Be active on the forums when you can. Keep people informed of what is going on for the game.

For instance, you posted that creature on your forum here, showcasing the exanded rules for supernatural threats. You should cross-post that to rpg.net, so people there can see how it goes.

Another suggestion revolves around your offer for review copies. If you do get people to review it, and they like it, ask them if they would't mind running a demo of the game at a local con.

Luke mentioned about the flamewars on rpg.net regarding Burning Wheel. The first thread I remember seeing about it (which was by Taepoong) came across like an advertisement, and while I don't remember participating in the flame fest itself, I was immediately turned off on the game. Then my buddy Thor and I went to Ubercon back in March, met Luke, played some Melee demos and a con game. Luke's enthusiasm for just running a melee demo, and the fun I had in the con game, sold me on the book. I went from wanting nothing to do with Burning Wheel to counting it's author as one of my friends. Goes to show how you never know what will happen in the future.

As for me, I plan on posting some stuff to rpg.net on the game (likely some ideas for creatures and cults, etc), to help pimp the game. I like it, and hope to run it sometime myself.

Dunno if my comments were helpful or not, but I thought I would pipe in anyway. Don't get too disgruntled, and keep on perservering.

abzu wrote:
RPG.net reviews have always been good. Follow them up immediately with another thread/post. In fact, all reviews are good, positive or negative. I've got a fairly critical review of the game on my site, it's the most read review (by hits). But it defintely hasn't negatively impacted my sales.

I saw CoS in posts and was annoyed that I didn't know what it meant. So I found your sig and followed it up, liked what I saw, read some reviews and bought the game. I also looked at the other games on IPR but none tempted me. But at least I looked at them.

The reviews were not a great help. I can't remember which ones I read but one of them was far too glowing for me to give it any weight. It's not as easy as you might think to write a good review, and most reviewers don't. They tend to think that either their opinion is fact, or that balance lessens the value of the review. It also helps if they have a body of reviews, so as not to appear to be a friend or fanboy of the writer.

As for competitions, PtgPtb gave away a John Kovalic signed copy of Pokéthulhu to the sole entrant of our 'name a monster' comp. We have a couple of thousand subscribers plus many other readers. Even when we give stuff away for no effort, the most replies we've had is 12.

I think lite editions are a good way of getting interest, as long as you don't make them too good (a mistake made by Dying Earth).

Hello,

The key virtue of a review or any other internet coverage is the opportunity for the game designer actually to put on a good face to the public.

It doesn't matter what the review says. It could be complete ass. What matters is that you, the person who did it, appear as a decent kind of person.

Anyone who is attracted by whatever merits the game has (if any) that the reviewer pointed out (if any), has already been attracted. Your presence will help these folks go from X% might-getto 100% get.

But more importantly, your presence will also influence those who have not been attracted especially by the review itself to take a second look and (here's an important concept) decide to decide for themselves.

That's why I'm always advising people never to try to refute reviews, always to answer questions, and to acknowledge valid criticisms.

Every time I've done this, regarding any review or any mention of my games which permits a non-spam response, it's paid off tremendously.

Best,
Ron

GB Steve wrote: I think lite editions are a good way of getting interest, as long as you don't make them too good (a mistake made by Dying Earth).

Ria, you've stumbled on the etiquette: dragging up old threads (anything out of the front page, or many weeks without responses) is something we don't do here. Instead, start a new thread, summarize the old discussion you want to continue, and provide a link to the old thread.

The reason we do it this way is that discussion always lives in time. The participants hopefully reach each other and change their minds, as well as develop otherwise as human beings. Thus it'd be a folly to require anybody to continue an old discussion later on. The river is never the same when you step in it again.

For more stuff about the local rules, read the stickies on the top of the forums. We also discuss the finer points to death on the Site Discussion forum.

Anyway, it's not a big deal. Ron will no doubt split this to it's own thread when he gets around to it.

--

As for what Steve meant: if you make the light, free version of your game too good, you lose the curiousity factor, and in the worst case make buying the actual product useless. You should always make sure that the light version is functional for something, yet hints very strongly on even more delights to come. The purpose of a light version is to prove your mettle to the customer, so he can be sure that what he's buying is good. The purpose is not to make your product redundant.

I personally think that a light version of a product can be made to work very effectively, although it's also overlaps with actual play accounts and reviews as far as it's purpose goes. That doesn't of course mean that all three can't be used simultaneously. I suggest considering whether what you got to sell could be "lightened" by making it a one-shot scenario, for example, with only the rules that you need to play it. No need to try to lighten the whole experience. A textual solo adventure could also be used to great effect, especially as a web enchancement.

More discussion to come, I'm sure. And in this case we still have GB Steve with us (or at least did a couple of days ago), so he might tell us more about the lessons of Dying Earth.

I hadn't realized this was such an old thread, and my apologies. I get a little single-minded sometimes.... Seriously, we were just talking about whether to do a sample game Thursday. Thanks for the heads-up, Eero!