It happened by accident, I get to play Sorcerer. In a couple of weeks, we'll play Sorcerer set in 17th century France, starting with the scenario depicted in the Sorcerer's Soul, the Day of the Dupes.

Now, I haven't played Sorcerer before, but am confident that I get the rules and all. However, I'll have to add some stuff to the scenario, being that it doesn't specify everything. Here's a start of a one-sheet:

Setting: Swashbuckling era France, a la Three Musketeers and such.

Humanity: Honor in the socially accepted form outlined in the scenario.

Humanity loss: by acting unhonorably, obviously.

Humanity gain: by especially honorable action. Clearly one might easily garner both gain and loss from the same act, when the demands of honor are in conflict.

Humanity 0: A person at Humanity 0 is an outcast of civilized society, losing all personal restraint as well. The character strives to escape and conceal his identity, or gets arrested and jailed, effectively removing himself from the story. He might resurface later on under a different name, looking to make amends or trying to restore his position, or he becomes an animal beast, degenerating to the level of the natives of the colonies or likely even lower.

Demons:
Rituals:
Lore:
Sorcerers: These require some thinking, and feedback would be appreciated. Did Ron have anything in mind when writing the scenario? The way I figure it, the rituals are antithetical to humanity because of
a) Symbolic desecration: Rituals are essentially hermetic, but draw their power from private, symbolic scorn towards a person's own honor (shitting on the king's invitation, say). The strongest rituals include actual sacrifice of honor, through deeds or words. Demons are only attracted by honorable characters, and Humanity can be rolled as a tie-in in rituals.
b) Concrete actions: The so-called rituals are actually concrete actions that risk the person's own honor. Wandering in the underworld of Paris and interacting with the lowlife scum might eventually attract a shadow denizen - a demon. It is attracted to form a bond through demonstrations of willingness to lay aside one's honor. The relationship is essentially a social gulf between a human and the most unhonorable creature imaginable, a creature that strives to drag the sorcerer to it's own depths.

As can be seen, this is still a little contrived. The scenario would imply some kind of symbolic, hermetic magic, being that Francois LeFevbre Contains his demon in a painting. But how is this kind of demon a risk to one's honor, as defined by the scenario?

Also, I find it problematic to decide that all sorcery is essentially scholastic in nature. It'd be better to define at least one form that can be achieved through "heroic" pursuits, like option b) above.

Any ideas or examples about honor as humanity are appreciated. I'm probably thinking this somehow wrong, as I have trouble building visuals on what the sorcery should actually be. I'll come back to this after thinking about it some.

Hi Eero,

I've taken a day or so to consider your post, but I'm still puzzled. I really don't see the problem - why not present what you have so far to the other folks in the group, and have them come up with the rituals?

As the author of the scenario that you're using as inspiration, I can tell you what I had in mind, but that should run a distinct second to whatever it is the players of the protagonists would prefer to do.

For example, the artist in the scenario (the dead one, the sorcerer), was violating Honor as follows:

1. He was not interested in social advancement.

2. He was not brave and daring, nor did he care about concerns of face and duty.

3. He was not interested in the reputation of his lover.

In other words, in this setting, the typical obsessive artist isn't a very high-Humanity character.

Best,
Ron

I certainly will take into account any ideas of the players, but it'd be better if I myself had some, too. Also, shouldn't we strive to retail the connections between the concepts of humanity and sorcery?

An example: one player already intimated that he'd be interested in playing an alchemist. OK, but would his alchemy have power over demons, could there be alchemical rituals?. To answer this question we'll need some shared understanding about what sorcery is, what lore is, what demons are. "Everything goes" becomes problematic when the demonity should backfire on humanity. I as the GM should be there making sure that any sorcery in the game will somehow address the issue of honor, for why else should a ritual inflict a humanity check?

Why exactly is calling up a demon unhonorable? This is a key question, because the answer gives me the inspiration I need when answering a multitude of other questions. I'm not looking for exact "special effects" of sorcery, but rather the logic behind it, from which all else flows. If a pentagram and chanting help in summoning, why is it? How is a pentagram relevant if humanity is explicitly not Christianity or religious belief of any kind? How do we decide on what works and what doesn't, even to the roughest degree, if there's no clear understanding of what demons represent?

Ron: note that I understand how the sorcerer-artist is unhonorable. That's clear. What's not clear is how his state is worsened by his sorcery. What actual sorcerous actions has he undertaken that besmirch his honor? Surely we can do better than "You get a demon by lolling about in cowardly ways." Where's the ritual of it all? Or does the guilt from the actions of the demon retroactively affect the sorcerer even before the demon gets to do it's deeds, even if sorcery itself is not unhonorable?

Anyway, that's a restatement of my confusion. Hope it helped. I've been thinking on this and believe that something along the lines I wrote can be developed. Here's my further thoughts:

Inner demons: Inconspicious and parasitic demons are awakened from inside the sorcerer, through ritual that gives form to the dissatisfaction of the sorcerer. The demon wakes when a sorcerer casts aside his social ties - his honor. Such a demon manifests in monstrous effects, never pleasant, because that's what it is. Human is just a shell of a demon waiting to awaken, or a doorway, depending on your viewpoint.

An inner demon is called forth through symbolic, intricate and personal ritual that gives form and affirms the estrangement of the sorcerer. State of mind is the key. Bonuses can be attained from a variety of sources, including personalized sacrifice (burning recommendations etc.) and acts as well as old and tested rites that bring on a suitable state of mind (mantras, glyphs, anything that affirms willingness to break away).

Outer demons: Passing demons are called forth from outside civilized, honorable society. They take on a resemblance to the natives of non-European countries or the lowest criminalities of France, only greatly exaggerated. The strongest of them might resemble exotic, pagan gods.

Outer demons are found by looking in the right places and imitating the right actions, usually the kind honorable society abhors. Bonuses from particular snippets of ethnology (basing your sanctum in the criminal quarters) and commitment to unhonorable, foreign actions (smoking opium, etc.). Objects are crafted by the sorcerer, and are always foreign, exotic items, frequently meant for unhonorable deeds.

Demon changes: Inner demons start as inconspicious (sense of presense near the sorcerer), parasite (inside him) or possessor (a split-personality kind of deal). Outer demons are passers or objects. Either can become immanent, inner demons by becoming the sorcerer or other person they are associated with (when they drop to Humanity 0), outer demons by gaining a title in France or becoming regalia/heraldic items.

Otherworld: There is a demonic otherworld, but it's not easy to get to. It's the same for the inner and the outer demons, which effectively means that you get to the same place by going over the deep end and travelling to the heart of darkness. Obviously it's easiest to get there by travelling as far from honorable places as you can manage before trancing out.

Lore: Lore is knowledge about human mind and society, frequently in terms and notions foreign to both modern and contemporative sciences. A great sorcerer understands the thin veils of honor that are the only thing between a human mind and the outer darkness, as well as the human society and the same. Lore can frequently be rolled as a tie-in when dealing with psychology and society.

The Point: By defining the demons and sorcery through something like the above, I'm effectively saying that honor is the thing that divides man from the beast. While I couldn't have given you an example demon for the death of me before defining the above, now it's no problem at all: outer demons are foreign, inner demons are monstrous, and in the extreme the two are the same in being totally alien to honor. Some examples:
- The demonic race of menteri, dressed in red gowns and sporting wicked moustaches, are always willing to counsel humans in the ways of treachery (Boost Cover and other tricks). Apparently they are common to the point of controlling the Empire of China.
- Only church officials can usually use Christian/satanic symbology very effectively in sorcery, because only their honor is inexorably tied to their loyalty to the church. For others the maximal bonus for description is +1 or so.
- Jacq the fisherman from La Rochelle has lost his faith in the King, and consequently lets loose his anger through the demon Pisca, which is an inconspicious inner demon of his. It manifests as a wailing shadow, lamenting the treachery of the royal family.
- The pagan sorcerers of Africa gain their demons by prancing about and acting like animals in elaborate ritual that tries to contact "animal spirits". Effeminate artists in Paris do the same by flouting their responsibility to the society. Denying their debt to honorable human society is the common thread.
- ... and a hundred other examples. Through understanding the issues and cosmologic symbology embedded in the demons, I can answer questions pertaining to them. Say, the alchemy example above: an alchemist could conseivably drug himself and thus help in contacting the depraved undermind, the gate to the demonic otherworld (whatever I'm calling it).

Understand where my problem was? I think that the above covers what I was looking for, but if you have any additional notions, I'm listening. Might be that I'm trying to do this in a too complex manner.

In conclusion, I'd still like to hear about how sorcery was worked in Ron's version. Was it all classical pentagrams, or was it connected with the cultural memes of the period? And how was the connection between honor and sorcery handled?

Hello,

Yes, I think you answered your inquiry very well with that post. I am convinced that the answer would only be helpful if you provided it, which is why it was hard to respond to your initial post.

My application actually made very little use, if any, of Christian or occultist-type cosmology. I interpret Dumas and similar fiction to be, if anything, aggressively secular.

You wrote,

Why exactly is calling up a demon unhonorable?

Ron: note that I understand how the sorcerer-artist is unhonorable. That's clear. What's not clear is how his state is worsened by his sorcery. What actual sorcerous actions has he undertaken that besmirch his honor? Surely we can do better than "You get a demon by lolling about in cowardly ways." Where's the ritual of it all? Or does the guilt from the actions of the demon retroactively affect the sorcerer even before the demon gets to do it's deeds, even if sorcery itself is not unhonorable?

Ron Edwards wrote:
My application actually made very little use, if any, of Christian or occultist-type cosmology. I interpret Dumas and similar fiction to be, if anything, aggressively secular.

This and your accompanying text is a perfect paraphrase of chapters 1 and 4 in The Sorcerer's Soul, so yes, I agree that it's a good question. However, I tend to turn it around: how does (or what type of) dishonorable behavior call(s) up a demon?

I'm pretty sure you've answered this for yourself, but the way I see it, the artist has met a pretty awful fate in that he will not be remembered as an artist via his acts. After all, his masterpiece is now an unrelievedly black canvas with some paint missing in the shape of a wolf. So much for the risks he took with his Humanity - the investment is lost forever.

Hello,

If I'm reading this thread correctly, then "turning your question around" has been successful:

How is summoning a demon is dishonorable? is meaningless, but How do dishonorable acts summon a demon? is crucial and inspirational.

If that is the solution to the basic inquiry of this thread (and I think it is), then please disregard the frustration of the following. I did need to vent, and maybe that's all it is.

Venting starts here.

I'd like to clarify one part of the dialogue so far. Eero, you wrote,

An example: one player already intimated that he'd be interested in playing an alchemist. OK, but would his alchemy have power over demons, could there be alchemical rituals?. To answer this question we'll need some shared understanding about what sorcery is, what lore is, what demons are. "Everything goes" becomes problematic when the demonity should backfire on humanity. I as the GM should be there making sure that any sorcery in the game will somehow address the issue of honor, for why else should a ritual inflict a humanity check?

Ron Edwards wrote: Hello,
If that is the solution to the basic inquiry of this thread (and I think it is), then please disregard the frustration of the following. I did need to vent, and maybe that's all it is.

It's frustrating to read this. I put an enormous amount of effort into the honor and musketeers-style color material into that scenario, in the book. That's a lot of stuff, condensed specifically into forms that I thought would be fun and inspirational reading for role-players.

So, Eero, you can show the players the stuff in the book. You can show them exactly what you posted here. From there, they will come up with rituals that will knock your eyes out with how perfect and appropriate they are - all you have to do is ask them to.

I also don't see where any of the Christian or faux-Christian/occult assumptions would be coming from. Pentagrams aren't mentioned in the scenario, nor any other aspect of occultism. There aren't any satanic or religious elements in the material at all. I agree with you that it would be grossly incongruous with the definition of Humanity as honor - so poof, throw it out, as step one. Or don't try to superimpose it in the first place.

So, I shared the work thus far with the players. We'll have a character creation session next Tuesday, so soon we'll know how it'll go. I must say that writing it all together and in Finnish made it all come together much better; now I'm anxious to get to play, and I even like this conception of demons. It makes sense when you ponder on it enough.

I wrote a list of suitable descriptors for the genre:

Stamina:
Swordsman: You're an experienced swordsman. Pick a style from the 'Soul. Pick this descriptor repeatedly for a multiply-experienced guy.
Big: You're big, and that helps, whether it's muscle or fat.
Soldier: You live or die by your body, so likely it's not bad.
Nimble: Your wit and nimbleness allow some tricks. Are you in circus, boy?
Woman(<4): You're weaker and more passive than men, and you're not expected to stand against them.
Sick(=1): You have Hansen's disease, or you're otherwise really sick.
Old: You're just old.
Barbarian: You're closer to the animal than the European folk. You can use the Humanity-selling mechanic from &Sword.
Will:
Belief: Your faith encourages you, and your convinction convinces others as well.
Frenzy: Your vow, love or lust for revenge drives you forward.
Calme: It's cool in French, like Richelieu.
Cunning: You get your wish by hitting when they're down.
Nobility: You know it, they know it.
Zest for life: You love life, and it shows.
Coward(<3): You're a poltroon with no backbone to speak of.
Stained: An unhonorable act afflicts your mind. You can use the Humanity-selling mechanic from &Sword.
Lore:
Naive(=1): You know only a little about demons, and some of your notions are likely wrong. You met your first demon by coincidence.
Pupil(=2): Your master reveals you secrets, and you serve him.
Covin(=3): Old French for a group, you're a member of a wizard's coven with it's own goals.
Mad(>3): Meeting demons has shaken your mind, price -2 instead of -1.
Master(>3): You know enough to take pupils or to go your own way. You're a part of a tradition.
Traveller: You're an explorer; you kissed the black rock in Kaba, you travelled to the Heart of Darkness. You've met your outer demons and survived.
Philosopher: Old writings are known to you, and you yourself research ways to understand human self. You've met Rene Descartes, and understand his work. You've met your inner demons and survived.

I like those, but if I've forgotten something, go ahead. From what I remember of the genre fiction, the stamina descriptors should indeed range from "skilled swordsman" to statist player. Everybody's a swordsman, and if you aren't, there's something wrong with you. And yes, being a churchman is "something wrong", even if it's not said straight out.

Note also how there's two descriptors that allow a character to be inhuman; in accordance with the demon conception I wrote about earlier, these are the "outer" descriptor of being a barbarian and "inner" descriptor of being somehow unhonorable. Works nicely, I'll warrant.

I also made some traditions of sorcery. As I said, writing this stuff out really helped me come to terms with it. Now I could make rituals, demons and stuff all night long. Here's traditions:

Umbra Aedis Christi: Only churchmen can summon demons through satanism, because only they owe fealty to the church and Christ, it's head. The Aediles, as they call each other, make use of the fact. They're a secret sect in the catholic church, and probably responsible for the whole oath of fealty business to begin with. Obviously, they're all priests. Not so obviously, I see no reason for them to be the villains of a story; like any player character, they have to choose why to soil their honor to begin with, and what to make of it.

The rituals of the Aediles are extremely honed due to centuries of use and investigation, but their satanistic paradigm is of course inherently limiting. Their demons are almost always inner demons: possessors, bleeding crosses and stuff.

Pennello: An Italian tradition born in the renaissance and employing mythological inner and outer demons: fauns are lured in the deep woods, or men are possessed in bacchanalias, that kind of stuff. Rituals are based on self-destructive behaviour and social cruelty towards others, and are usually quite inconspicious unless met head on. The big gathering of the Pennello sorcerers comes yearly at the Carneval in Venice, which as a group ritual packs some heavy magical mojo to be used for all kinds of things.

Pennello is socially popular, and many artists and minor nobles are members of social clubs headed by members. Most, especially the noblemen, frankly don't have an idea of what's going on. Pennello is however not tolerated in most of the Protestant countries.

L'epee de l'Allemagne: Sanzoku from the main Sorcerer book. They're an obvious choice for a swordsman hero, after all. A new sorcerer striving for the riddle of steel should travel to an Arabian swordsmith, which can sometimes make Sanzoku swords, which all are anything but socially acceptable in looks.

And now that I think of it, the Protestants need their own sorcerers, too, considering that it's the thirty year war right now. Of the above traditions, only the weak and obscure L'epee is rumored of (and accepted, if sorcery could be that) in the protestant countries (it was brought to Europe by master swordsman Paulus Kal). To save the Reformation, let me introduce the skewed tradition of...

Andeconstricts: Mostly Scandinavian sorcerers using crude Christianised rituals to Contain and Punish demons from earlier times (we'll posit vikings as real demon masters, leaving the countryside full of undisturbed Contains). Perfectly able to turn against their kin by calling up such monstrosities, as well. In the interests of multiculturalism (which is of course a paramount demonic virtue in this cosmology) we'll say that unlike Middle Europe, Scandinavian honor (and Humanity) still explicitly includes loyalty to kin as a major component. Let them brew in that, when king Gustav comes calling for sorcerous aid.

I'd better stop before this becomes a splatfest like WW games. It suffices to say that I'm confident that I will have enough suggestions to run character creation. Now I'll just have to learn an useful vocabulary in French to get some color into the dialogue, and there we are.

Hey Eero,

Neat stuff, and timely since my next game is probably going to center around the same setting. Just as a thought I wanted to mention that I've been considering adapting the Martial Arts rules from Sex into sword styles for the game. I'm planning on having a couple completed to show the players, but leave the option to roll their own as well. Just something you might consider.

-Tim

Tim Alexander wrote:
Neat stuff, and timely since my next game is probably going to center around the same setting. Just as a thought I wanted to mention that I've been considering adapting the Martial Arts rules from Sex into sword styles for the game. I'm planning on having a couple completed to show the players, but leave the option to roll their own as well. Just something you might consider.