Hello people

Yes I am still working on my game. (Currently titled Teramyr: Chronicles of the Eternal Cycle) Currently I am tweaking details of combat and one that's got me in a pickle is how to figure weapon Accuracies for Firearms. The Accuracy would be a score somewhere around 10 to 20 or more that would be gained by aiming the weapon, which would be applied against a Range/SPeed and size penalty. I find myself wanting a formula, Since I figure most of the other characteristics of a firearm based on formulas using muzzle energy, muzzle velocity, bullet weight, sight radius, weight, etc for Penetration, damage, snap shot penalty, recoil, Aim Time steps.

I have read through Understanding Firearms Ballistics, so I have a better grasp on the subject. I have also downloaded some ballistics programs that will let me calculate some drop charts but I haven't seen anything that will give me a solid formula to use. I know that using something based on the Ballistic coeffecient might work. But I was wondering if anyone else knew a good method to come up with this.

I have GUNS, GUNS, GUNS by BTRC/Greg Porter, and it mentions the equations you can use to calculate accuracy at range, but it doesn't provide them. What it does provide is it's RC system, which provides a listing of to hit modifiers at various ranges for various categories of firearms. Currently I am considering swiping it's +0 ranges and setting them as my base accuracies for Pistols/Rifles, and simply fudging the values for various weapons, but I would be much more happy with an actual formula to figure it out for me. If Greg reads this maybe he can point out something to use for this.

For those wondering, all of this detail will be encoded into the basic ranged attack "power" allowing for detailed twiddling of power effects and characteristics for people using the system. (a ranged attack will be constructed that can have these characteristics such as having aim time steps, snap shot penalty, accuracy, recoil, etc. With options to have none of these a higher cost for the power). This is part of the design architecture, which I envision as a grittier, more realistic design system than HERO.

Best

I think you need a more generalized rule, basically a situational bonus. That is, Aiming = sit bonus for the condition of aiming. See what I'm getting at? Otherwise, if the detail is kept as aiming specifically, you're getting into details that are favoring combat. What would be better, is a rule that works as well for Steady Hand Technique = sit bonus for condition of using said technique with a paintbrush.

See what I'm getting at? Generalize the principles, and the specifics all become easier.

In terms of setting levels, it's effects first. So the levels are whatever's paid for, right? So leave it to the opinion of the players.

Mike

With all respect, as far as I can tell, Rob has already drastically simplified and generalized this problem.

One number for a piece of equipment. You aim it, that's the bonus you get. Regardless of whether the target is 1 foot away or 1 mile away, or it's dead calm versus hurricane force winds, or even if the shooter is an Olympic marksman compared to someone who has never even seen a rifle before.

One number for the M-16. If you aim it, that's the bonus you get.

All that being said, I don't think there's a set of equations that is going to give Rob what he wants. What I'd do is set the accuracy bonus for a top quality Olympic target rifle at 20. I'd set the bonus for a piece of crud rusted out Saturday Night Special at 10. And then work towards the middle.

Speaking to someone who shoots competitively or runs a gun range or something of that sort might be helpful. People love to talk about their hobbies.



Cheers,
Roger

With respect, I've been working on this with Rob for literally years now. First, this is just one rule, I'm betting he has more regarding guns, so he's not simplified anything, AFAICT. Second, my solution would simplify the rules system while allowing the system to address all of the things that you're mentioning that his system may or may not currently. So the problem is?

Mike

If you're really going for turbo-sim, be advised that aiming a gun actually has very little to do with using it in combat.

IIRC, trained police officers hit assailants 3-10 feet away only 30% of the time. It's trivial to hit a target like that in a gallery, but hiting someone while they are trying to hit you is pretty tough. For a cinematic example, see 'Unforgiven'.

Most gun combat today is automatic fire. Toss a boatload of bullets in the general direction and if nothing hits they have to hide and not shoot you.

Unless your game is Skeet: the Shooting, I suspect that what you mention in your post will be pretty tertiary to gun combat.

Well, rules for aiming are important in combat to the extent that you want to look at this level of detail, and one might, at some point, actually managed an aimed shot in combat. Actually the Navy SEAL "One shot, one kill" training is based on making people aim.

The real question, which you're right about, however, is whether or not he has a rule that handles whether or not the character gets to aim. Or is it complete player control of character morale at all times?

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Well, rules for aiming are important in combat to the extent that you want to look at this level of detail, and one might, at some point, actually managed an aimed shot in combat. Actually the Navy SEAL "One shot, one kill" training is based on making people aim.

The real question, which you're right about, however, is whether or not he has a rule that handles whether or not the character gets to aim. Or is it complete player control of character morale at all times?

Mike

RobMuadib wrote:
Yes I am still working on my game. (Currently titled Teramyr: Chronicles of the Eternal Cycle) Currently I am tweaking details of combat and one that's got me in a pickle is how to figure weapon Accuracies for Firearms. The Accuracy would be a score somewhere around 10 to 20 or more that would be gained by aiming the weapon, which would be applied against a Range/SPeed and size penalty. I find myself wanting a formula, Since I figure most of the other characteristics of a firearm based on formulas using muzzle energy, muzzle velocity, bullet weight, sight radius, weight, etc for Penetration, damage, snap shot penalty, recoil, Aim Time steps.

I have read through Understanding Firearms Ballistics, so I have a better grasp on the subject. I have also downloaded some ballistics programs that will let me calculate some drop charts but I haven't seen anything that will give me a solid formula to use. I know that using something based on the Ballistic coeffecient might work. But I was wondering if anyone else knew a good method to come up with this.

Passer by wrote:
I guess the concept that your system embodies so far is that the shooter
points the gun at the target and a virtual circle appears over the target
representing where the shot may deviate to, with the area of the target
on that circle representing the proportionate chance of a hit. As the
shooter spends more actions pointing the gun the circle shrinks in size. A
more "pointable" gun starts with a relatively smaller (but quite large)
circle, while a more "aimable" gun ends up, after spending many actions
with a much smaller circle. The ballistic accuracy of the weapon (and
ammunition) increases the size of the circle, at first a very slight increase
relative to all the other factors, but as the target diminishes in "size" (by
being further away) and many actions are spent aiming this deviatation
becomes extremely important.

Something like that?

Passer by wrote:
One of the factors that, I think, is missing from this model is the "mean
point blank range", which I assume you have come across in your reading
(and can calculate with your ballistics programs). The trajectory of a
bullet can be approximated to a straight line only to so far out, and this
range is much longer for a rifle than for a pistol or submachinegun.