The Forge Reference Project

 

Topic: What makes an excellent layout?
Started by: Grand_Commander13
Started on: 11/22/2004
Board: Publishing


On 11/22/2004 at 5:22am, Grand_Commander13 wrote:
What makes an excellent layout?

Hello again everybody. My RPG is moving along at a nice pace; we're hoping to have it up for sale as early as the twelfth of December, as a matter of fact.

Right now, we're looking at having zero pictures in the PDF version, and a similar POD version (really, just minorly adjusted for margins) as soon as our cover is finished. But we also want to have a print version that we try to hustle on to hobby shop owners (of course, after the things sell, they'll be calling us for more!) and sell at GenCon (Indy 2k5! Look for us there).

The sad truth appears to be that a version in stores without a good amount of pretty pictures won't sell, even if the cover is great and the reviews rave about its quality ("pah, how can this piece of junk get those reviews?"). However, this is all slightly tangent.

My real question is that I want my PDF (and the POD version that will be almost identical) to look nice without any pictures. Now, I'm certain that I could at least lay it out in InDesign so that it didn't hurt the reader's eyes, but how does one make their book look truly good without pictures. I've seen first-hand the difference that just one random picture can have on a website, turning it from crap to decent. We obviously want our RPG to sell well, as we've been working on it for years, and it'd stink to have it turned down simply because of the layout.

Message 13445#143269

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Grand_Commander13
...in which Grand_Commander13 participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 11/22/2004




On 11/22/2004 at 6:33am, jdagna wrote:
RE: What makes an excellent layout?

There are a few things that I'd recommend doing.

First, you can pull examples, side notes and other bits of information out into boxes or margins. Basically, anything that isn't strictly linear with the rest of the text can be pulled like this.

In newspaper, we often used pull quotes to pad space and break up long blocks. Essentially, take some key nugget of wisdom and put it in a large font size in a box somewhere in the page (often crossing columns to break up the long runs). Many of the Warhammer books included in-character stories or quotes for just such a purpose.

Make sure you give plenty of white space - good-sized margins and spacing between columns (I use about double the white space in text-only layouts that I use when I have pictures). Another good place to add white space is by having spaces between paragraphs, which helps to differentiate blocks of text.

You can use some graphical widgets in the text to help decorate it. Page borders can add some excitement, but just make sure they don't distract readers from the text. Decorative bullets are also nice, and fancy lines can be used to separate sections or underline headings. Don't overdo these.

Font choice is also important - pick something comfortable on the eyes and easy to read. I can't recommend anything specific, but I'd say that a good font for on-screen reading won't be the best for print reading.

Message 13445#143274

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by jdagna
...in which jdagna participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 11/22/2004




On 11/22/2004 at 6:42am, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
RE: What makes an excellent layout?

As usually, Justin gives good advice. Follow it to the letter. Some general principles:

First, understand that as far as layout is concerned, text and everything else on the page is one, and that unity is graphical. Layout is not primarily the art of text placement, it's about interpreting text as graphic.

After that understanding everything is just a matter of graphical understanding. Make note of how the eye is supposed to move on the page
1) when it's first seen
2) when it's being first read
3) when the reader comes back to it later looking for something specific
4) when the book is read the fourth time
The logic for this is exactly the same whether there's pictures or not. You'll want the shaping of the text to support your textual points and to make it all as easy as possible to get into. The exact layout that's "correct" for you thus depends on your eye as an layout artist; what is the aesthetic you will follow in the layout this time? It's not a question of one correct answer, but a fundamentally artistic one: me, working as a layout artist, trying to grab the reader's spinal cord in my hands. Everything depends on context, reader subculture, material being laid out and a hundred other points. The final layout, after all, is created only when a reader's eye rows betwixt your solutions, and its goodness depends on how many people's subconsicious you touch with your solutions.

Remember also that there is a continuum of graphical expression between pure text (bland arial used for communicating verbal information in symbolic form) and pure picture (a framed, representative graphic with multiple verbal interpretations). These include stuff like fonts, page headers, sidebars, colors, punch-out text, different text cuttings, watermark symbols and all kinds of things that anybody can do with no drawing skill whatsoever. It's fatal to try to close the graphical world out if any kind of layout at all is wanted. You as the layout artist will want to plan the kind of graphics you'll be using, and if need be, you'll get somebody to make them for you.

I won't be giving any exact pointers without seeing the text and hearing about the spirit it's being marketed in. Generally you can't go too much wrong by using a completely neutral antiqua (how's that written in English?) font, one column for introductions/special text, two columns for normal text, a restrained page header/footer, white space between chapters, a grotesk title font, breaking the text on every page at least once and a completely consistent logic in applying the above. That'll give you a pretty normal newspaper layout, with a half-formal feel and no obvious reader reaction. No idea if you'd consider it a good idea for a rpg, though.

Message 13445#143275

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Eero Tuovinen
...in which Eero Tuovinen participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 11/22/2004




On 11/22/2004 at 6:47am, GaryTP wrote:
RE: What makes an excellent layout?

Hi,

Work your type. Start letters can become anchor points for new chapters. Starting words can be in another font than the one you're main copy is in. Get creative. Check out Graphis, Print, and some other annuals for some interesting ways to treat type. Type can have as much energy in it as a nice illustration if done right.

Use your white space creatively. Lead people around your work with it.

Always work with an underlying grid in mind. You can get very creative on top of a grid, but a good grid will keep the whole thing balanced.

Check out: http://www.redsun.com/type/

It'll give you some easy tips.

Gary

Message 13445#143277

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by GaryTP
...in which GaryTP participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 11/22/2004




On 11/22/2004 at 7:42am, Grand_Commander13 wrote:
RE: What makes an excellent layout?

That was nifty. Though I was already planning on pulling notes into the margins, the rest of it was stuff I hadn't thought of.

I'm really going to consider going for the columns... That may work quite well to make the text a lot easier on the eyes.

Aside from that, would using tables (with rows using two shades of grey as background, alternating) be good? I have quite a bit of stuff that would pull into a table quite nicely, and tables would break up text quite well.

Message 13445#143279

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Grand_Commander13
...in which Grand_Commander13 participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 11/22/2004




On 11/22/2004 at 8:42am, Jonathan Walton wrote:
RE: What makes an excellent layout?

The best advice I have is: find graphic design that you like and try to figure out how it works and why you like it. This is similar, actually, to the point Chris Lehrich just made about good rpg writing. Learn what you like and then try to recreate it. But draw from several sources, because no one's perfect and no one else is designing for your game, which undoubtably has unique needs.

For instance, I generally am pretty pleased with Brian Glass' layout work on Exalted, Oliver Graute's work on Engel, James Wallis' work on Nobilis 2nd Edition, Joshua Newman's work on Dogs in the Vineyard, Gary Pratt's work on Code of Unaris, Shreyas Sampat's work on drafts of Torchbearer, all of Matt Synder and Zak Arntson's work, etc. But none of those styles would fit one of my games especially well, because all of those design jobs (and the best design work, in my opinion) is tailored to the game in question. Design DOES matter, in other words :)

If you decide you want tables or to use technique X, find a set of tables or an example of technique X that really works for you and gets the information across clearly. You learn best by seeing other people doing successful work that really speaks to you.

Message 13445#143285

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Jonathan Walton
...in which Jonathan Walton participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 11/22/2004




On 11/23/2004 at 12:40am, jerry wrote:
RE: What makes an excellent layout?

If you're looking for something to read, I'd recommend:

The Non-Designer's Design Book, by Robin Williams

I found that extremely useful. It is very basic and provides a strong foundation in layout.

I also enjoyed:

Looking Good in Print, Roger C. Parker.

It goes into more detail than the Williams book; but if you only get one book, I'd recommend Robin Williams.

Jerry

Message 13445#143387

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by jerry
...in which jerry participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 11/23/2004