Topic: [Tribe] Concept for critique
Started by: jknevitt
Started on: 12/6/2004
Board: Indie Game Design
On 12/6/2004 at 3:32am, jknevitt wrote:
[Tribe] Concept for critique
My current work-in-progress is tentatively called Tribe (or as I somehow keep referring to it, "my Viking thing"). The basic premise is this:
Your personal worldframe consists of the Tribe -- nothing more, nothing less. It is your task, as a member of the Tribe, to make sure that the Tribe thrives, because without your help, the Tribe will wither and die. Do what you need to do: find lost relics for trade, negotiate or fight with other Tribes for food or land, or even create a family and raise the next generation of Tribe members.
The rough system sketch is point-allocation diceless, in the Nobilis mold. Everything runs off four 1-10 range Attributes: Physical, Mental, Social, Spiritual.
Various ideas I have:
-- Genetic character creation: Your Attributes are determined numerically by your Lineages (your mother and/or father) and your Influences (others in the Tribe who have mentored you).
-- Seasonal Domination: Incorporation of the Seasons as a second dimension to character Attributes (frex, instead of just having Physical 7, you have Physical 7/Winter). These come into play for opposed tasks and such.
-- Help the Tribe: everything a character does helps or hinders a part of the Tribe. Players can spend Tribe points (gained through action that benefits the Tribe) to develop and grow their part of the Tribe (frex, Tribe points could be spent so a Tribemate gives birth to a new baby). If a character fails to gain Tribe points, their part of the Tribe could wither away (frex, people could get a disease, or suffer an accident and die).
Thoughts?
On 12/6/2004 at 4:18am, greedo1379 wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
It sounds like a cool idea.
-- Genetic character creation: Your Attributes are determined numerically by your Lineages (your mother and/or father) and your Influences (others in the Tribe who have mentored you).
This would really help bring in some saga style flavor. I'm curious to see how you would do it though. I mean, if you are writing up a character would this really require that you write up two parents first? You see what I mean? It would basically force a player to build his background from the ground up. Since the point is to have a Tribe this could actually work out well... Yeah, I think I jsut talked myself into liking this one.
-- Help the Tribe: everything a character does helps or hinders a part of the Tribe. Players can spend Tribe points (gained through action that benefits the Tribe) to develop and grow their part of the Tribe (frex, Tribe points could be spent so a Tribemate gives birth to a new baby). If a character fails to gain Tribe points, their part of the Tribe could wither away (frex, people could get a disease, or suffer an accident and die).
This could be cool.
I think you really need to have some Fate mechanic. Reading over the sagas you keep seeing this theme throughout.
The other thing that I saw on another thread that made me think of a Viking game was a mechanic where you build up a lot of points over the first half of your life and spend the last half of your life spending them to effect change. Something like action points. I think reading Egil's Saga especially you can see this sort of thing in action.
(I loved Scan 252: Viking Sagas in Translation)
On 12/6/2004 at 4:37am, jknevitt wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
greedo1379 wrote: It sounds like a cool idea.
-- Genetic character creation: Your Attributes are determined numerically by your Lineages (your mother and/or father) and your Influences (others in the Tribe who have mentored you).
This would really help bring in some saga style flavor. I'm curious to see how you would do it though. I mean, if you are writing up a character would this really require that you write up two parents first? You see what I mean? It would basically force a player to build his background from the ground up. Since the point is to have a Tribe this could actually work out well... Yeah, I think I jsut talked myself into liking this one.
This was a HUGE issue for me when I was fleshing out the alpha system, although I think I've got a solution now: you choose your Lineages and your Influences from a list (ie Pragmatic Mother, Strong Father, Wise Tribe Elder). Each Lineage or Influence has a number of points you add for each of your Attributes. Add these to a base (I'm thinking base of 2) and you get your overall Attributes.
Example: Erik chooses two Lineages: a Pragmatic Mother (+1, +2, +2, +0) and a Strong Father (+4, +0, +0, +1); and one Influence: a Wise Grandparent (+0, +4, +0, +1). Adding all these to a base of 2 gives Erik Attributes of Physical 7, Mental 8, Social 4 and Spiritual 4.
The reason I'm really holding on to this idea is that I think in this sort of setting, it would be very in flavor to say "Yes, my strong right hand is from my father, who was a warrior!" or "My wisdom was gained at the feet of Thorfin, the leader of the Tribe."
I think you really need to have some Fate mechanic. Reading over the sagas you keep seeing this theme throughout.
The other thing that I saw on another thread that made me think of a Viking game was a mechanic where you build up a lot of points over the first half of your life and spend the last half of your life spending them to effect change. Something like action points. I think reading Egil's Saga especially you can see this sort of thing in action.
That I quite like. It could play well into the management part of Tribe. Perhaps you play two ages of the same character, a la Fireborn. You play the younger, advernturer-type, earning Tribe points or what have you, and you also play the older, grizzled Tribe leader, who guides and nurtures the Tribe. This, however, could take away from my initial vision of developing the Tribe as your exploits are completed, and gaining glory from same.
It definitely warrants further contemplation.
On 12/6/2004 at 7:26am, greedo1379 wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
jknevitt wrote:
This was a HUGE issue for me when I was fleshing out the alpha system, although I think I've got a solution now: you choose your Lineages and your Influences from a list (ie Pragmatic Mother, Strong Father, Wise Tribe Elder). Each Lineage or Influence has a number of points you add for each of your Attributes. Add these to a base (I'm thinking base of 2) and you get your overall Attributes.
Example: Erik chooses two Lineages: a Pragmatic Mother (+1, +2, +2, +0) and a Strong Father (+4, +0, +0, +1); and one Influence: a Wise Grandparent (+0, +4, +0, +1). Adding all these to a base of 2 gives Erik Attributes of Physical 7, Mental 8, Social 4 and Spiritual 4.
The reason I'm really holding on to this idea is that I think in this sort of setting, it would be very in flavor to say "Yes, my strong right hand is from my father, who was a warrior!" or "My wisdom was gained at the feet of Thorfin, the leader of the Tribe."
Reading the Sagas this pretty prevalent. I like your mechanic for it. As a "duh" type comment, makes sure that there isn't an obvious ~best~ choice. You know what I mean I'm sure (its why its a "duh" type comment!)
That I quite like. It could play well into the management part of Tribe. Perhaps you play two ages of the same character, a la Fireborn. You play the younger, advernturer-type, earning Tribe points or what have you, and you also play the older, grizzled Tribe leader, who guides and nurtures the Tribe. This, however, could take away from my initial vision of developing the Tribe as your exploits are completed, and gaining glory from same.
It definitely warrants further contemplation.
How about simultaneously playing two characters? One is the young tribesman off on adventure and the other is the older, retired tribesman making babies and teaching the new folks. Tribe points would be earned by the former and spent by the latter. They are "Tribe" points and not personal points anyway (by the by, I so want to abbreviate these as TPs but I just can't help giggling thinking about big sword weilding vikings accumulating toilet paper)
*edit - the following is a seperate idea*
You could have two seperate "piles" of points. One piles for unused Tribe points and one for used... *snicker* TP. The unused could be used like action points. The used ones could be used as major plot points (baby making, etc.) You could have a 2 for 1 thing for unused points to be used for major plot points.
This would kind of encourage two different kinds of games and gamers: one guy who does the action and adventure stuff, using his points to slay the dragon and such. The other one retires and becomes the head of the tribe and such. This kind of flashes me to the Antonio Banderas movie 13th Warrior with the old king in charge (who didn't really seem to be much of an adventurer) calling on the younger guy (leader of the 13 warriors) to help him out. The old king retired from adventuring life and used all his TP as major plot points. The younger warrior has lived his life using all his TP to get out of trouble and dies without enough money for a proper burial.
Just throwing out ideas.
On 12/6/2004 at 3:00pm, jknevitt wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
greedo1379 wrote:
This would kind of encourage two different kinds of games and gamers: one guy who does the action and adventure stuff, using his points to slay the dragon and such. The other one retires and becomes the head of the tribe and such. This kind of flashes me to the Antonio Banderas movie 13th Warrior with the old king in charge (who didn't really seem to be much of an adventurer) calling on the younger guy (leader of the 13 warriors) to help him out. The old king retired from adventuring life and used all his TP as major plot points. The younger warrior has lived his life using all his TP to get out of trouble and dies without enough money for a proper burial.
Just throwing out ideas.
I thought of having two characters for each player, but I tossed it simply because I wanted to have players with their eyes on the prize: TP! I like the idea that you can "save" your Tribe points -- almost like a Reputation mechanic.
What about if each player DID have two characters, but they were related? ie. The grizzled Tribe leader and his young brave son. The older character would be the patron/mentor of the younger. The player would play both parts, but 90% of the action would be with the younger generation. The young characters go out and do all the things that earn Tribe, and return:
"Yes, I slew the beast that ate our cows in the name of my father!"
Bling! Daddy gets Tribe points. In a way this could almost be political: not only would the primary characters be helping the Tribe to survive and grow, they would be making or breaking the reputations of the older members by performing tasks in their name. If a primary character fails to bring in Tribe points, the status of their Patron (most likely their mother or father) goes down.
EDIT:
greedo1379 wrote: How about simultaneously playing two characters? One is the young tribesman off on adventure and the other is the older, retired tribesman making babies and teaching the new folks. Tribe points would be earned by the former and spent by the latter. They are "Tribe" points and not personal points anyway (by the by, I so want to abbreviate these as TPs but I just can't help giggling thinking about big sword weilding vikings accumulating toilet paper)
Yes, I only realized just now I basically rehashed what you'd suggested earlier. It's too early in the morning for this! :)
On 12/6/2004 at 4:30pm, arete66 wrote:
How about just playing a family?
Why limit it to two characters? Why not just play a father and a son...or a mother and a daughter...and throw in a grandfather or grandmother while you're at it if they are still around. Then, as characters die, you could play their descenants.
The elders could deal with the politics of the tribe and the major decisions of the tribe, the youngsters could deal with the threats...
I think that concept of continuity, akin to what one sees in Ars Magica, could really thrive in Tribes.
Cheers,
Tom
On 12/6/2004 at 5:36pm, jknevitt wrote:
Re: How about just playing a family?
arete66 wrote: Why limit it to two characters? Why not just play a father and a son...or a mother and a daughter...and throw in a grandfather or grandmother while you're at it if they are still around. Then, as characters die, you could play their descenants.
The elders could deal with the politics of the tribe and the major decisions of the tribe, the youngsters could deal with the threats...
I think that concept of continuity, akin to what one sees in Ars Magica, could really thrive in Tribes.
The very concept of continuity is one that I want to really project in Tribe. One cool idea to come out of the old TSR Dark Sun setting was that of a character tree. You play one character, and as that one improves, so do the rest of the characters in your 'tree'. It was intended as a quick backup in the case of character death in a pretty savage setting, but I think such a concept can be generalised and used elsewhere.
I'd like to use a form of that here, but since Tribe has no personal character advancement, it might be a bit tricky. I want to be able to have something in place where you get to handle both aspects of Tribe (the adventure stuff and the management stuff) but without having a high character:player ratio.
Hm. Your idea about familial connection might have merit. Why should it be limited to individual characters? Would it not be feasible, in this setting, to play a family as one might play a character? Throw down everything on one sheet? Players then would be more wary about sacrificing individuals (as that would be a huge loss to their family) but they would still need to go out and earn those valuable Tribe points.
...
Now that I'm thinking about it, let's look at incorporation of saga elements. Norse mythology has Ragnarok and the end of the world as a future history. I would dearly love to incorporate that feel into Tribe. Perhaps players should be able to adopt Author or Director stance through some means? A player-adopted Director Stance could allow players to write a future history such as this.
On 12/6/2004 at 9:46pm, Troy_Costisick wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
Heya,
Now that I'm thinking about it, let's look at incorporation of saga elements. Norse mythology has Ragnarok and the end of the world as a future history. I would dearly love to incorporate that feel into Tribe. Perhaps players should be able to adopt Author or Director stance through some means? A player-adopted Director Stance could allow players to write a future history such as this.
Then this is a perfect instance to use greedo's Fate mechanic. Each Tribe should have either a prophecy or a phrophet. No matter what, the prophecy will come true. (or will it? You as the designer would have to answer that). If you want to have the feel of Ragnarok, then the prophecy should have an unfortunate ending for the Tribe. It would then be up to the players to either A) stave it off as long as possible or B) make it more bearable for those that survive.
Peace,
-Troy
On 12/7/2004 at 3:15am, jknevitt wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
Troy_Costisick wrote: Then this is a perfect instance to use greedo's Fate mechanic. Each Tribe should have either a prophecy or a phrophet. No matter what, the prophecy will come true. (or will it? You as the designer would have to answer that). If you want to have the feel of Ragnarok, then the prophecy should have an unfortunate ending for the Tribe. It would then be up to the players to either A) stave it off as long as possible or B) make it more bearable for those that survive.
Hm. Choice of unfortunate end for the Tribe as part of Tribe creation? You could do the same thing for individuals: as part of their creation, you must choose how and when they will die (or it perhaps would be beter if players had no decision-making at this stage); if you have sufficient "Fate" or whatever mechanic works, you can buy your way out of the Fate predestined for you.
On 12/7/2004 at 4:12am, greedo1379 wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
Could you explain a bit more what your plan for the background is? And what the players will do? I'm kind of confused. At first I thought you were doing something in the vein of the sagas (basically historical). There was some soothsaying and such but it was pretty well set in the real world.
I think this is important to know for folks to suggest mechanics. Something historical following the sagas is different than something where the players are fighting in Ragnarok.
On 12/7/2004 at 4:22am, greedo1379 wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
jknevitt wrote: Hm. Choice of unfortunate end for the Tribe as part of Tribe creation? You could do the same thing for individuals: as part of their creation, you must choose how and when they will die (or it perhaps would be beter if players had no decision-making at this stage); if you have sufficient "Fate" or whatever mechanic works, you can buy your way out of the Fate predestined for you.
I think choosing a suitably tragic end for the character would be cool. It doesn't necessarily have to be death. In one of the sagas a woman is loved by a couple guys and they end up killing each other*. She gets married again but is never really happy. It was a pretty tragic ending but she didn't die.
I **don't** think you should let players buy their way out of Fate. It kinda defeats the purpose. The whole tragedy is that they were all heroes and no matter what they did they would fall. If you get rid of that you might as well skip Fate altogether.
How about Fate being randomly chosen at character creation. It is known by all the players and GM. Teh goal is to maneuver the character through live until you get a suitably dramatic time to off him.
* As I recall, her name was Grunheld, and two of the guys were named Boli and Kjartan but its been a couple years. Just if you want to look it up or if you're familiar with the one I'm talking about.
On 12/7/2004 at 4:24am, jknevitt wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
greedo1379 wrote: Could you explain a bit more what your plan for the background is? And what the players will do? I'm kind of confused. At first I thought you were doing something in the vein of the sagas (basically historical). There was some soothsaying and such but it was pretty well set in the real world.
I think this is important to know for folks to suggest mechanics. Something historical following the sagas is different than something where the players are fighting in Ragnarok.
Ah, my bad.
I had originally planned for Tribe to be very light on setting, with the intention that people could use the system to represent any kind of large 'tribal' group, be it a Viking clan, an inner-city street gang, a post-apocalyptic survivalist cult, etc etc.
The ideas that have been spun off have been oriented around the Viking thing, as I call it, since it's very easy to work with, hence our discussions here.
In terms of Tribe: Viking, if you want to call it that, the setting would essentially be any Norse-style clan, extended family or tribe that has no major connections to the outside world. They would be very insular, with only minor contact with outsiders. Ragnarok is still a fair way off, but everybody knows its coming and there's a sort of mad scramble to gain enough favor with the Gods to either a) allow the Tribe to fight against the Giants at Ragnarok, or b) protect the Tribe from the end of the world.
On 12/7/2004 at 4:35am, jknevitt wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
greedo1379 wrote:jknevitt wrote: Hm. Choice of unfortunate end for the Tribe as part of Tribe creation? You could do the same thing for individuals: as part of their creation, you must choose how and when they will die (or it perhaps would be beter if players had no decision-making at this stage); if you have sufficient "Fate" or whatever mechanic works, you can buy your way out of the Fate predestined for you.
I think choosing a suitably tragic end for the character would be cool. It doesn't necessarily have to be death. In one of the sagas a woman is loved by a couple guys and they end up killing each other*. She gets married again but is never really happy. It was a pretty tragic ending but she didn't die.
I think that roleplaying games in general have developed too much around the D&Dism that you should become super-good at whatever you do, fight bigger and badder monsters and eventually get rich and retire. 90% or more of the RPGs on the market today are close or distant variations on this theme.
What I'm planning to do is to take that and almost invert it. With Tribe, your fate is sealed from the day you are born. You know when that final day is coming. You know how you're going to die. You know who is going to kill you. You also know that you need to protect and nurture those that came before and those that will come after.
What Tribe is basically about is that it's not how you die, but how you live that counts. Dying alone on some frozen field with your legs broken and half a spear in your gut would not be a bad end, knowing that your children will live on.
On 12/7/2004 at 6:14am, greedo1379 wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
jknevitt wrote:
I had originally planned for Tribe to be very light on setting, with the intention that people could use the system to represent any kind of large 'tribal' group, be it a Viking clan, an inner-city street gang, a post-apocalyptic survivalist cult, etc etc.
Ok, that makes more sense now.
On 12/7/2004 at 6:18am, greedo1379 wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
jknevitt wrote:
I think that roleplaying games in general have developed too much around the D&Dism that you should become super-good at whatever you do, fight bigger and badder monsters and eventually get rich and retire. 90% or more of the RPGs on the market today are close or distant variations on this theme.
I dunno man, I think this is more of a "life-ism" than anything. :)
On 12/7/2004 at 3:16pm, daMoose_Neo wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
jknevitt wrote: (I)t's not how you die, but how you live that counts.
Cut, copy, print. Damn thats good! Thats liable to get some attention right there! You've got premise, tagline, and summary of the system in one line I'd wager.
It'd make the game a fair bit different from most others, at least gives you a clearer goal, navigating your hero to his/her demise. I'd play it ^_^
On 12/7/2004 at 3:32pm, jknevitt wrote:
RE: [Tribe] Concept for critique
daMoose_Neo wrote:jknevitt wrote: (I)t's not how you die, but how you live that counts.
Cut, copy, print. Damn thats good! Thats liable to get some attention right there! You've got premise, tagline, and summary of the system in one line I'd wager.
It'd make the game a fair bit different from most others, at least gives you a clearer goal, navigating your hero to his/her demise. I'd play it ^_^
Heh, thanks. Put your gamist hat on for a moment and imagine this: you go through with your character, he ends up dead in a ditch somewhere, and then you look to the GM, and you say "What's my score?" The GM shakes his head, scribbles something on your character sheet and hands it to you:
F.
Unacceptable. See me after the game.
:D
On 12/7/2004 at 8:40pm, arete66 wrote:
Inner-city gangs...
...with Seasonal based attributes?? That might be pushing the limits of your chosen exploration.
Maybe make the seasonal based part of the attribute a toggle? Or expand the scope of the aspect (for example, with an inner city gang, maybe the seasons are "business as usual", "war", "cops cracking down", etc.)
Cheers,
Tom
On 12/7/2004 at 9:50pm, jknevitt wrote:
Attribute toggles and speed
arete66 wrote: ...with Seasonal based attributes?? That might be pushing the limits of your chosen exploration.
Maybe make the seasonal based part of the attribute a toggle? Or expand the scope of the aspect (for example, with an inner city gang, maybe the seasons are "business as usual", "war", "cops cracking down", etc.)
A good idea, Tom. I originally had seasonal Attributes as a form of marker for my genetic character creation, although now that a better solution has presented itself I'll most likely do away with the Seasonal appellations.
A primary aim of the core system of Tribe (which I will gleefully use for other things) is to keep it as light and as fast as possible. I'm not going to get anywhere as light and fast as There Is No Spoon, for example (and I suspect this is because I'm going diceless), but I want to keep it pretty close.
I intended the Seasons to act as a Attributal toggle, and that idea I'll keep. Therefore:
* Why would Attributes need a toggle of any kind?
* What purpose does adding another dimension serve?
* How does a Attribute toggle facilitate speed in a system?
* How does it make it easier to use?
They're the big questions. If I can answer them, I might be on to something.
On 12/8/2004 at 12:26am, arete66 wrote:
What does a "seasonal" attribute add?
I think one great upside of the seasonal attribute is it focuses the character's attributes on the life cycle of the Tribe. At least, that's what jazzed me about the idea when I first read it. :)
Any Tribe goes through cycles. Heck, if the Tribe were a retail sales outfit, there would be the Xmas season and the Inventory season, right? :)
To me, seasonal attributes:
1) Provide a tie between the character's attributes and the life pulse of the Tribe.
2) Emphasize the viability of the Tribe...there are certain activities and modes of conduct that must occur during each "season" to ensure that the Tribe continues and survives.
(As an aside, I think you should follow that typographical conceit consistently throughout the finished game: "Tribe"...always capitalized...it is, after all, what the game is all about.)
Cheers,
Tom
On 12/8/2004 at 2:26am, jknevitt wrote:
Re: What does a "seasonal" attribute add?
arete66 wrote: I think one great upside of the seasonal attribute is it focuses the character's attributes on the life cycle of the Tribe. At least, that's what jazzed me about the idea when I first read it. :)
Any Tribe goes through cycles. Heck, if the Tribe were a retail sales outfit, there would be the Xmas season and the Inventory season, right? :)
To me, seasonal attributes:
1) Provide a tie between the character's attributes and the life pulse of the Tribe.
2) Emphasize the viability of the Tribe...there are certain activities and modes of conduct that must occur during each "season" to ensure that the Tribe continues and survives.
Ah, but what would be the connection between the seasons and a character in terms of system? Would a character be "stronger" in those seasons? Would an aforementioned retail sales character with Mental 7/Inventory be better at stocktaking than say, someone with Mental 7/Xmas Season?
I think I really need to find a solid tie between those seasons and how a character "works" in terms of system. Otherwise, they're dead wood. Very cool dead wood, but still dead wood.