As you know I'm creating my own RPG for self publishing. I have about three distinct campaigns/stories in my head at the moment that can be fleshed out into complete settings. The mechanic that I've created is very flexible and generic enough to allow easy adaptation to multiple genres. As was done with D20 when it rolled out, I'm considering choosing one of my settings as the flagship setting. This will however increase the size and prize of my initial offering. The basic rule set will be large enough to encompass the malleability desired including rules for creating spells/powers/skills/monsters and the campaign setting will include specific instances of spells/powers/skills/monsters created with those rules.

From a gamer's perspective: Would you rather have the choice of buying just the rules if you wanted and getting the settings separately but paying slightly more per book? Or would you rather get a better value by getting rules and setting together though you might not even use the setting?

From a design perspective: Do you see inherent advantages to making your game modular? Do you think that bigger books are an easier sell? Or do you think that the modern gamer is more budget conscious? I'm talking about the majority here.


Perhaps a bit of insight into my creation process will help you get a feel for where I'm going. I think a lot of game designers take one of two approaches to creation.

1. I have this excellent fully fleshed out setting, now I just need a mechanic. If an existing mechanic has all that I need to accurately capture the feel of my game I'll use it; otherwise I'll create a new one.

2. I have this great mechanic that I think is better because it's mathematically sound/fair/fun/easy/etc. now I just need a setting.

I went with #2.

How many pages does your mechanic take up?

I've also been working on a system to put up on our website. I'm going for a complicated beer and preztles, but easy RPG rules set, so my base rules take up about no more than 10 pages. Since it's not that big, I was thinking about making the base rules a free download so people could read it and pass it around, even play their own games (which is still good b/c it generates interest in the system). I have about three settings in mind right now and each one uses this sytem, but each one either expands or modifies the system a little with more crunchy bits you can add to the base system. I haven't fleshed out how big these settings will be, but I've decided to charge for them, even if they end up being as low as six bucks. Alternatively, if my group got a bug up their ass and wanted to put this to actual print, then I've decided that I would include the rules with the settings and charge a slightly higher price (and place a bare bones, just-what-you-need-to-know PDF online for free download).

Does this sound like something you were planning to do, or is my anecdote completely off base?

Actually reading your post I would say you're describing my system pretty much exactly. The rules I've got right now are unfinished but at about 12 pages. Adding spell and skill description is the largest part. The rest is all setting specific.

Personally, I have tended to choose option #1: the setting comes from me, and then I scope around for a mechanics system that fits well for what I want. I tend not to find most fantasy or scifi settings very interesting, and so I in effect end up ripping out the mechanics and putting them to use elsewhere. So I guess I would tend to buy the mechanics alone and never bother with the setting.

I'm just the opposite of Chris- I like settings, not mechanics. There are several gameworlds that I would like better if they had no mechanics at all. Jorune and the WoD come to mind.

So, yeah, split it up and sell to both types of gamer...

JC, couple of pieces of advice.

1) Polls like this thread aren't going to help you very much. You will get very enthusiastic support and very vehement opposition for every option you present. In the end you have to choose what gets YOU fired up. If the choices don't get you fired up...then they're wrong. That's about the only absolute truth I can give you about game design.

2) I think you're setting up a false dichotomy. There is no simple question of setting vs. mechanics. Its alot more complicated than that. I'll give you an example.

If you tell me you have a set of mechanics that you can plug and play a variety of settings into, and you want to know whether I'd find buying the mechanics together with a setting included or completely seperate more appealing, I'm going to tell you niether.

I'm going tell you niether because in my mind, mechanics and setting SHOULD be inseperable. The ideal game mechanics for me are the ones that mechanically reinforce the setting.

Show me a setting...show me mechanics so closely tied to that setting that they couldn't possibly be used for anything else but that setting...and I'll get excited.

Show me mechanics that can be plugged into any setting with little effort and all you'll get from me is a big yawn.


My point being is that there aren't just two options to the problem and you'll never get anything approaching a consensus about which is the best route to go. So again...just do what makes you excited and that excitement will rub off on others.

Heya,

This thread might help you out too: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=5181&highlight=ember

Peace,

-Troy

Vladamir

I see your point, and that makes sense. I did really want other peoples' opinion because frankly what I like doesn’t matter to me, what the customer wants does. If I make a product that will appeal to the smallest audience then I'm shooting myself in the foot. I thought perhaps other designers had some insight on this issue from their own experience. You're right again about settings meshed with mechanics but I think that at its core a mechanic can be simple enough to transcend into different settings. Maybe it's me but it's the true math of my core mechanic that gets me most excited. I play a lot of poker so maybe it's just my love of statistics. I hate to beat around the bush about my game because it's unfinished. I don't want to release anything about it too early because nothing is copyrighted yet.

jc_madden wrote: I see your point, and that makes sense. I did really want other peoples' opinion because frankly what I like doesn’t matter to me, what the customer wants does. If I make a product that will appeal to the smallest audience then I'm shooting myself in the foot.

I don't want to release anything about it too early because nothing is copyrighted yet.

I don't want to release anything about it too early because nothing is copyrighted yet.

greyorm

I think you mistook me. I’m not completely ignorant just looking to protect my intellectual property. Sure I understand you feel that it isn’t necessary but you never can be too cautious. Granted idea theft is a worse-case-scenario and it's operating under the assumption that what I write is actually worth something, but hey that's what I see you have to do. Perhaps this shows my lack of knowlege but isn’t that why I was asking questions in the first place? If I knew it all I wouldn’t be asking for advice. In future I’ll be more forthcoming with the details of the system I’m developing.

I thought long and hard about a response to you as I was slightly put off. But I realize that in the end you’re just trying to be helpful so I’ll just say thanks.

Troy
Got it rock solid now thanks! When I get something pretty to share I'll have a link for you guys.

Heya,

Troy
Got it rock solid now thanks! When I get something pretty to share I'll have a link for you guys.

jc_madden wrote: I thought long and hard about a response to you as I was slightly put off. But I realize that in the end you’re just trying to be helpful so I’ll just say thanks.

Here is a link to the system document I'm working on right now; it's in a raw form so not a lot of formatting or organization/art. The more I think about what Vladimir said the more I agree that there are a lot of things I want to include in the rules that are directly related to the setting that I intend to publish. So I think I will make rules/setting inseparable.

Well, GW may have been blunt, but he WAS right- on copyright, the instant a work is in a fixed form (even digital), it is copyrighted.

What you CANNOT copy are very basic, thematic, issues. Characters, Specific Scenarios, specific, fictional places not in public domain (ie anything not Camelot, Vallhalla, Hell/Hades etc), can be copyrighted (Which makes me think...just how does Marvel maintain their copyright on Thor, Loki, and the other Asgard assemblage?? just thinking out loud...).

Now, here's the stickyness. You have to prove your work was in fixed form before a rivial/conflicting form. Easiest way is to create a draft document and mail it to yourself, and place it in a secure place when you recieve it back.
The stamped mail date creates an unquestionable date by which the work was fixed, and if its not opened until the Hearing in question, the judge or jury or however far it goes will obviously see that the work contained had to have been created by the date on the envelope.

Researched small press and comic production years ago, this is a trick that was actually used by artists and authors that stands.

Yes I was aware of that little bit of info. I recall a famous song by Steely Dan - "Riki don't loose that number, it's the only one you'll want. Send it off in a letter to yourself...."

daMoose_Neo wrote: Now, here's the stickyness. You have to prove your work was in fixed form before a rivial/conflicting form. Easiest way is to create a draft document and mail it to yourself, and place it in a secure place when you recieve it back.
The stamped mail date creates an unquestionable date by which the work was fixed, and if its not opened until the Hearing in question, the judge or jury or however far it goes will obviously see that the work contained had to have been created by the date on the envelope.

Researched small press and comic production years ago, this is a trick that was actually used by artists and authors that stands.

We have discussed the whole "mailing it to yourself" here before repeatedly (though I can't find the thread right now). As I recall, in Europe (spec. Britain?) the practice apparently has some merit. In the US, however, the practice is absolutely and utterly without merit. In the States it is an old wives' tale that provides zero legal protection.

If any (would-be) game publisher is worried about copyright, how to protect it and so forth, my advice is to talk to a copyright attorney. It will help you sleep better at night.

Hey JC,

To get back to your original question, I'd rather buy the rules and the setting in one book. In fact, I don't purchase games to get rules I shop for the setting. Even with D&D I was there for the setting.

I think I'd feel that a game which offered me a bunch of settings and one big batch of rules is potentially trying to rip me off by getting me to buy more books. Just my take on it, although I know the approach has been done before by big publishers (with Silhouette and Storyteller engines at least). But note that I *don't* play either game . . .

Yes I believe I have made a decision to include them together. Now I just have to figure out which one will have the widest appeal. I feel equally strong about all of them so this will be a tough call.

#1 An alternate fantasy genre where when a person is born they're souls are trapped inside a magic gem and are essentially enslaved because what happens to the gem happens to them.

#2 A mix between western fantasy and ancient Asian culture. Fireballs and funky martial arts powers mix together with several unique forms of magic to choose from.

#3 Ragnarok has come and gone and the aftermath has left many of the Norse gods dead and some resurrected. The children of the fallen take up the mantles of their fathers and begin to rebuild. Mankind struggles amongst the wreckage and terrible artifacts left on the battlefields can be recovered and used for good or ill.

#4 Post apocalyptic Alaska, focusing on the native tribes and a shamanism. The pollution of the oceans has created a sort of reverse evolution where many of the sea animals have mutated and adapted to life on the surface once more. Herds of brontosaurus-like whales sift through the algae beds of the costal wetlands as the temperature has risen. dramatically.

My opinion is that you go in this order: 3, 1, 2, 4.

And if I remember correctly, poor man's copyright won't help you win a court case in the US. I'm not even sure if the judge would allow you to use it as one more evedence of proof.

Hello,

Please take all discussion of copyright, protection of IP, and similar issues to the Publishing forum. Don't continue that topic here.

Best,
Ron

On the one hand, I am often frustrated when I pick up a game that potentially has a good system, but it is welded to a setting I dislike by specialized mechanics and skill sets.
On the other hand, I am very frustrated when I am given a game where it is so 'wide open' that I can't riff off and have a game going immediately without having to build a chunk of system to touch it to the ground.
D&D was the perfect mix of that for me. There's enough fragments of world to go on, but that world is vague enough that I can do what I want without being constrained by some specialized mechanic. I could pick up the DnD books, flip through it on my way home, and have people making characters in my own setting within an hour. They're still "playing DnD", but it's my corner of the world, and I didn't have to spend a week developing the magic system, equipment, and skill lists from scratch.

The post-Ragnarok setting really intrigues me. Neat twist on post-apoc fantasy, and Norse mythology is underused in rpgs, in my personal experience. Now take that comment with a huge lump of salt, because I really don't have an extensive fanstasy rpg background.

Nick

I was thinking of your question and thought that even if you are planning on selling just your system you might want to offer a light version, this is something Gurps does and that is the only major company that I could think of that sells the system olone, other companies that make there systems available for others to use would be tri stat system and d20 both of which offer there system for free.