Everyone,

This Thread is a sister thread to 'GroupDesign - Core vs. Options', 'GroupDesign - Time Travel Party!'.

As the threads on the clusters draw to a close, it's time to start bolting down mechanics. What I want everyone to do is to answer the following questions. There are some rules to answering questions:

1. You may go 'chapter-by-chapter' (i.e., start with 0, etc.), but please try to answer all the questions for a chapter in one go. (Or at least, all those you find essential - there may be some redundancy).
2. For each answer, use the following syntax:
a.: Short summary of your answer (a few lines). No discussion. No 'we might'.
b. Then a short description of the underlying mechanics, if needed.
c. For each answer, indicate which part is 'Core' and which part describes 'Optional'

On Becoming and Being an Archivist

0a. 'More than Human' - why become a Archivist?
0b. How do you become an Archivist?
0c. What do you keep? What do you lose? What do you gain?
0d. What do you do? (Roles, Archivist society)
0e. What is the Nemesis?
0f. How is an archivist (character) described?
0g. What do you do as a player?

On taking a host

1a. How is a host (character) described?
1b. Why take a specific Host? (Nemesis-Related)
1c. Why take a specific Host? (Host ability-Related)
1d. Why take a specific Host? (Archivist nature-Related)
1e. How do you take a host?
1f. How easily do you take a new host?
1g. Why would you leave a good host? How hard is it to leave?
1h. How is a good Host rewarding or dangerous to the Archivist?
1i. What happens to the host after you leave (even if you treated it real well)?

On being in symbiosis with the host
(Please try to refer to either Traits or a Sliding/Balance scale)

2a. How does it feel to the Archivist? To the host?
2b. Who's in control? A distinct Archivist? A symbiont mind?
2c. What traits does the symbiont inherit from the host?
2d. What traits does the symbiont inherit from the Archivist?
2e. What levels of power can the Archivist activate? At what cost? What is the absolute maximum?
2f. What element shows the balance that is struck between host and Archivist?
2g. How can you tell things are going out of control?
2h. What is Burn-Out?
2i. What is Fade-Out?
2j. Can you recover from them?
2k. Can the Archivist 'reward' the Host?
2l. How does Multiple Personality Disorder happen? What is its effect?
2m. How much harder does it become when you try to do things that are contrary to the Host's nature?
2n. What actions do you take? How? How is success determined?

On achieving (longer-term) Success

3a. How would success be measured for the Archivist?
3b. How would success be measured for the symbiont?
3c. How would success be measured as opposing the Nemesis?
3d. What does the symbiont gain from success?
3e. What does the Archivist gain from success?
3f. When (If possible) is the Nemesis thwarted?
3g. What are the pittfalls of exerting influence on society?

Once we get these in, we can then digest what others have posted, and hopefully arrive at cohesive mechanics. There might well be major differences in a approach, at this point - don't be discouraged by that.

My crack at 'Chapter' 0.

On Becoming and Being an Archivist

0a. 'More than Human' - why become a Archivist?

(Core)

There are 2 main reasons to become an Archivist - out of need, or out of freedom. Out of need is generally related to the Nemesis, out of freedom generally means from a desire to gain Archivist powers, or lose certain (negative?) aspects of human life.

0b. How do you become an Archivist?

(Core)

Through a procedure with the intent to make one an Archivist. While this procedure might be accidentally triggered in rare cases, in general effort has been made both to create the procedure, and to apply it to the individual in question.

The procedure requires the transformation of the thinking, striving part of the source human as a part of the human body to a separate-non-corporeal entity.

0c. What do you keep? What do you lose? What do you gain?

(All Core, except where noted with ‘NC’)

You keep: personality traits. Some memories. Goals (?).
You lose: Some memories. Emotions driven bij physical processes (adrenalin, endorphin, hunger, pheromones, etc.), i.e. you become ‘colder’. Your body. Your normal senses (this is an interesting one that needs fleshing out).
You gain: new senses (needed, obviously). The ability to posess a Host. Time travel (although that may be a power of the Archivist Society, NC). A role in the Archivist Society. A Goal (Nemesis, NC). The ability to activate powers in the host.

0d. What do you do? (Roles, Archivist society)

(Core)

As a member of the Archivist society, you strive for the society’s goals (or resist them). Your role is generally a sort of ‘researcher/explorer’ so you may understand the nature of the Nemesis and help solve it.

Generally, you will posess the appropriate Hosts to achieve this knowledge.

(Custom)

This may vary from posessing Engineers and building stuff, psychologists to understand human nature, people from the past to understand past events, etc.

0e. What is the Nemesis?

(Core)

The Nemesis is an event or a process, in past, present or future, that threatens humankind in general. It can be solved/neutralized (in part) through knowledge sought by the Archivists. Mechanically, it can be resolved by the Archivist Society by collecting enough puzzle bits for the big brains to ‘solve’ the case.

(Custom)

The Nemesis is man’s disregard for his brethren in time of need.

0f. How is an archivist (character) described?

(Core)

An Archivist is mechanically described by four of (post-)human traits, changed as they are, and four Archivist traits. Each trait can have a strength from 1 to 5 while active, with 0 being equal to ‘non-active’. The trait’s activity or inactivity is related to Fade Out or Burn Out issues. 0’s are generally a ‘bad thing’, but overly high traits might prevent other traits from functioning well (dominated by the high trait).

The archivist is further described by its proximity/in-touchness with his old human nature, which is on a sliding scale, with it’s abstract (Duty) nature on the other side. (Note: while it could theoretically be possible to imagine the archivists as being both well in touch with their human nature and their archivist nature (both scores high), I would like to promote the idea of trade-off and balance, thus making it a sliding scale). The scale is 5 boxes, with the right end being ‘full archivist (5), zero human’, and the left end the opposite. The number of the scale could be the effective cap on the applyable trait (for instance, post-human-nature traits are capped at 2, archivist traits are capped at 3 (2+3=5) at one setting of the scale).

0g. What do you do as a player?

(Core)

You travel to cool places/times and posess the hell out of stuff, trying to get knowledge of events. You may need to exert your post-human nature to understand this knowledge, your archivist powers to make it more acessible, or you host skills to get there. You look for clues to unravel the Nemesis.

(Custom)

And possibly you fight the Darkchivists.

0b. How do you become an Archivist?

Core

By fading away from the mortal Earth. First you don't go out of home any more, then you don't take phone calls, then your body fade away and what remains is pure energy.

0e. What is the Nemesis?

Core

And if the Nemesis is Chaos, Ignorance, Oblivion and the like? I mean, not a faction or an enemy just the Time that flows away and blur memories.

0f. How is an archivist (character) described?

Core

I'd like the idea that an Archivist is described by a Pool points and a real of knowledge. With the points he can push his host and his realm can define his personality, appearence and so on.

1a. How is a host (character) described?

Core

By traits and skill both human, and by a limit unknown to player.

1e. How do you take a host?

Core

By fading in. Slowly an Archivist can boost his skill and push the host.

--

Only few ideas by the moment.
See ya, Da

Here's my current take on the first few sections:

0a: 'why become an Archivist?'

Archivists stand Outside Time and Space. This makes them immortal, and they also get to explore the history of the known (and unknown) universe. Not all people chose to become Archivists, but many took this route as a reaction to the horrors of the First Interstellar War.

0b: 'how do you become an Archivist'?

By a transcendant act of will - 'dimensionality is a function of consciousness.' However, just before the War, technology was perfected which eased the transition and made the process less risky (note: unwilling subjects cannot be forced to Ascend using this machine, it would kill them first.)

0c: 'what is kept/lost/gained?'

Archivists keep their human memories, and gain eidetic recall. This can be quite a shock, and many Archivists start their new existence caught up in reliving their own past. This is known as the Reverie (or the Regret.) Archivists also gain the power to travel through human space and time virtually at will. Note: although Archivists are outside of human time, they are subject to their own 'ethereal' time frame, which they cannot 'skip'. Humans of the Xth Century already had a tendency towards psychic talent, in Archivists these abilities are magnified greatly. Archivists lose the ability to interact physically with the world.

0d:'what do you do?'

Archivists have a great thirst for new experiences. If an Archivist did nothing, they would soon succumb to the Reverie; so, most Archivists are explorers through space and time.

Some have devoted themselves to the study of far-flung galaxies, seeking either scientific knowledge, or other forms of life. Others (the Archivists) decided to study the history if mankind. Some remain in the Xth Century, conversing with those few humans who are able to hear them. Some have disappeared from all known Archivist space; it is not known what they do, or whether anything happened to them...

0e: the Nemesis

...and some decided that the study of the History of Man was not enough. They began to use their powers to shape history, even though any contact with pre-Century X humanity was expressly forbidden. They call themselves the Architects (but the Archivists know them as the Nemesis) and they seek to build a better tomorrow. Of course, your view of 'better' may vary, and the future according to the Architects is a return to a bloody, more violent, more sensual existence.

The New Universe is beginning to emerge in potentia, the Archivists can detect the 'shadow' it casts upon History, and are using their abilities to fight it. Even though this means breaking the rules themselves...

More to follow...

Doug

Ooops... Tobias has reminded me that I forgot to indicate which bits are 'core' and which are 'custom'. It's to late to edit the post, so:

In the post above, the bits about the Interstellar War, the Humans of the Xth century who chose not to 'Ascend', and the existence of machinery to ease the process could be 'custom' (but I would recommend them as 'core'.)

The rest is (IMHO) 'core', including the existence of other groups than Archivists and Nemesis.

OK, next chapter (and where is everyone?)

1a: [Core] A Host needs to be described by:

- What he/she can achieve in the physical world
- Personality Traits (in the same format as Archivist Personality Traits, as these will interact.)
- Some type of relationship map (Connections to other people, the scenario goals etc.)
- What the Host needs to do to appear 'normal' (go to work, feed the cat, swear profusely, invade Poland... whatever)

How this is achieved mechanically, I'm going to file under [Options] for now.

1b: [Core] To make changes to History, in support of the Nemesis Agenda...[Options] whatever that is. [Core] The Host needs a valid Conection to the plot in terms of location, skills, contacts, whatever.

1c: [Core] As above, the Host needs to be fit for purpose... however a talented Archivist (or Nemesis) will be able to use their own skills and knowledges to make a Host more suitable, which means a greater choice of Hosts.

1d: [Core] To observe the current situation, to prevent Nemesis changes, or to reverse those changes. [Option] to interact with the Encyclopaedia, an organic computer created by the inhabitants of the Xth Century.

1e: [Core] Observe the Host from Outside of Time, establish a Telepathic connection, and relocate your centre of awareness to inside the Host. This most basic level of occupation is 'Riding' the Host. From this position, the Posessor (general term for Archivist/Nemesis/Other) is unlikely to be detected. From this basic position, the Posessor can attempt to communicate with or manipulate the Host ('Voices in the Head') or can attempt to wrest actual control.

1f: [Core] Depends on the type of Possession. Riding is easy, Voices is slightly harder, Control is hard and is actively resisted by the Host.

1g: [Core] There are many reasons for leaving a Host. The Host may be injured, or may no longer be suitable for the task. The Host may be hard to control, if a Host is placed in a stressful situation, or is made to do things against their nature they also become harder to control. The Possessor may be at risk of detection. If a Host dies, this should hurt the Posessor in some way, so Posessors may need to 'eject'. And a Host may be too good - the Posessor may need to get out before they identify too strongly with the Host and become trapped.

[Also Core]The longer a Posessor remains in a Host, the harder it is to leave. Also a Host who is similar in temperament to the Posessor is harder to leave (but easier to work with). If the Host is in the grip of a strong emotion, this interferes with the Posessor's powers and makes it harder to leave.

1h: [Core] As above, a good (compatible) Host is easier to use, but harder to leave. More competent Hosts (especially the strong-willed ones) are more likely to notice the presence of a Posessor and will resist Voices and Control more strongly.

1i: [Core]If the Posessor only Rides the Host, there will be little ill-effect (but there must be some cost, perhaps in the form of a low dose of radiation. Using Voices may lead to mental illness in the Host. Control is very stressful, and the Host is going to know abut the Posessor - for this reason, Archivists need to know how to erase a Host's memories if in extremis. This is decidedly unethical (and therefore a Hard Choice) and may, for example, result in a Host waking up in a room full of dead bodies, holding a bloody axe, with no recollection of what happened during the last few hours...

[Core] In addition to the above, if an Archivist uses 'energetic' powers to enhance the Host, then this is going to result in long-term damage (again, I prefer radiation-based problems as being the most appropriate, ahem, 'fallout'.)

That's all for Section 1 for now. Next time, I'll try and crack Section 2 - in the meantime, please comment or add something if you have the time.

Regards,

Doug

Doug Ruff wrote: OK, next chapter (and where is everyone?)

For me, I've been very busy at work lately. In addition, this thread in particular has been pretty overwhelming in scope. I'll try to address it fully this weekend.

Oh, I'm beginning to feel like an Evil Overlord....

Just to make it clear, I'm not bothered about the time it's going to take to complete each part of the project - this is a big job to take on, either as a group. (And even if I was bothered, that's tough on me, I'm not The Foot.)

I was just a bit concerned that there wasn't any other activity on this thread at all, combined with the lack of any deadline - IMHO that's when the impetus gets lost.

Tobias, would it help if there was a 'please add your bit by [date]' deadline, even if this was several weeks away and negotiable?

[deep breath]

Well, this got a wee bit out of control. It's too long (sorry, everyone) and bends the guidelines for presentation (sorry, Tobias) and doesn't include all the neat things we were trying to do. But, in its defence... it's actually a game. Not a complete game, and not a good game, yet: That awaits you guys tearing it apart and putting the thing back together again. But you could actually sit down, now, and play an RPG with this. I think....

0. On Becoming and Being an Archivist

0a. 'More than Human' - why become a Archivist? & 0b. How do you become an Archivist?
You were human once. Human beings, by their nature, seek answers. Human beings, by their nature, rarely get them. And there came a point for you when the need to know became more urgent than the need to live. You sacrificed yourself to find the truth.
Maybe the sacrifice was literal, with a cold stone altar and a ceremonial knife and a priest promising you a new existence on a higher plane of wisdom. Maybe it was technological, with a cold steel table and a cerebral scanner and a scientist promising you a new existence as pure intellect and energy. Maybe it was stubbornness, and you were the explorer who kept going when the food was almost out and everyone else turned back, because you just had to see what was over the horizon. Maybe it was even subconscious, and you were the detective who kept on digging up the crimes of the powerful even though you knew, deep down, that it would all end with you bleeding out in a back alley somewhere.
All those are possible options. The core is this: You wanted the truth so badly that you died for it. The force of that desire and that sacrifice burned your spirit into the universe like an after-image of a flash of lightning.
So you're a ghost. But not just any ghost. You are a spirit on a quest for knowledge. You're an Archivist.

0c. What do you keep? What do you lose? What do you gain? & 0f. How is an archivist (character) described?
You were human once. Now you're more, and less. You have no body. You have some memories of who you were. And you have new, astounding knowledge that a mortal human mind could never hold.
Mechanics:
Write down no more than five things about your human self --up to five words or phrases that describe what you remember of who you used to be. These cannot be about your body or your physical skills --those are gone. But they can be feelings, ideals, ambitions, memories, or anything else about your personality. These are your HUMAN TRAITS: The things left to you that are distinctly human.
Then assign a numerical value to each one to indicate how strong that aspect of your perosnality remains: 1 is weak; 2 is strong; 3 is intense; 4 is fiercer than most people ever feel about anything in their lives, let alone afterwards. The total value of all your Human Traits must add to five --so if you have five traits, all must be weak 1's; if you have two traits, you can have a fierce 4 and a weak 1, or you can have a 3 and a 2; or any combination that adds up to five.
Now write down at least two things about yourself as an Archivist --uncanny knowledge that you have gained since (or because of) your death and which you can use to work paranormal effects, either subtle or extreme. These are your TRANSCENDENT TRAITS: The things about you that are more than human.
Then assign Transcendent Trait a numerical value to indicate its strength: 1 is weak; 2 is strong --on a merely human scale; 5 or more permits superhuman feats; 9 is earth-shaking. The total value of all your Transcendent Traits must add to ten --so you can have one awesome 9 and a weak 1, or two miraculous fives; or ten weak 1s; or any combination.
All these traits can change during play, which mean the totals change as well. The sum of all your Human Traits --five to start with --is your Humanity. The sum of all your Transcendent Traits --ten to start with --is your Transcendence.
Recommended Option: The typical Archivist game involves moving back and forth throughout history, seeking to reshape it. If that's the case, one of your Transcendent Traits MUST be "Time Traveler."
Other Options: You and your fellow players may wish to start with Archivists who are more or less powerful, in which case you should change the baseline Transcendence value; or more or less human, in which you should change the baseline Humanity value.

0d. What do you do? (Roles, Archivist society) & 0e. What is the Nemesis? & 0g. What do you do as a player?
The natural environment of an Archivist is the Great Library, a place with no physical existence in space or time. There all the knowledge gathered by all Archivists throughout all time is embodied in books, shelf upon shelf of them, extending endlessly over the horizon. In the Great Library there is no physical existence, only knowledge. Archivists can read the books, they can converse with one another, but they cannot harm anything or anyone, or even impede one another's motions.
Archivists seek knowledge. Left to yourself you would no doubt find some speciality and pursue it, eternally, filling the Great Library with volume after volume of what you have learned. But you are not left to yourself. Humanity is not left to itself.
The Nemesis is coming.
The exact nature of the Nemesis is chosen by you and your fellow players, all working together. It may by a physical plague, or a mystical one; a war, or a tyrant's peace. But whichever option you choose, three things are mandatory:
It must be a disaster that threatens, not merely the the physical survival of humanity the species, but the very quality of humanity itself: It will destroy whatever makes humans human.
It must be the result of human action, or inaction: It is not simply something that happens to humanity, but which humanity does to itself.
It must be inevitable. Unless you stop it.
To do that, though, you're going to need to borrow a body.


1. On taking a host

1a. How is a host (character) described? & 1b. Why take a specific Host? (Nemesis-Related) & 1c. Why take a specific Host? (Host ability-Related) & 1d. Why take a specific Host? (Archivist nature-Related) & 1e. How do you take a host?
To intervene in human affairs, you need a human form. You don't have one. That's why you need a Host: a human being in whose mind you ride, through whose senses you perceive, and through whose body you act. Call it "possession" if you like. But without a Host, you cannot even leave the Library. With one, you can work wonders, at a price --to both of you.
A regular human being --a potential Host --is described by a list of Traits, each with a numerical value assigned to it, much like an Archivist. Unlike an Archivist, none of a human's traits can be higher than four.
Mortal humans can never have Transcendent Traits. (Optionally, you can have wizards, mystical martial artists, and superscientists out there, in which case a few rare humans might have such traits). They can, of course, have Human traits, which define their personality.
Unlike Archivists, regular humans can also have Neutral Traits, which are characteristics that do not define their very identity but which are potentially useful or problematic: physical strength, skill at driving or scuba-diving, good looks, hideous looks, wealth, poverty, and so on.
What Traits does a Host have, and at what levels? That's up to you --sort of.
The Humanity of your Archivist indicates how well you still understand mortal human beings. For each point of Humanity you have (five to start, normally), you may pick a new level 1 Trait for your Host or add 1 to the value of an existing Trait.
If you have acquired additional information about your prospective Host, either through reading in the Great Library or in your own researches in the human world, the GM may give you additional points to put into the Host's Traits.
If that's not enough --and it usually won't be --you can add additional points, as many as you like, without limit. BUT for each point of Traits you add to your Host beyond your own Humanity, the GM gets to add one point of Traits too --without telling you what those Traits are. These secret Traits represent those aspects of your Host you don't understand humanity well enough to know about, at first. You will find out about them during play, the hard way.
There is no rule governing how either you or the GM split the Host's Trait points between Human and Neutral traits. (Transcendent Traits, remember, are not normally allowed for humans). A character with lots of Neutral traits will probably have a great many useful skills. A character with lots of Human traits will have a higher Humanity, which makes them more difficult to possess --but also more capable of enduring possession.

1f. How easily do you take a new host? 1g. Why would you leave a good host? How hard is it to leave? 1h. How is a good Host rewarding or dangerous to the Archivist?
Taking a Host is simple: You just look them up in the book. Every human being ever observed or even heard of by an Archivist is recorded, somewhere --perhaps in a fragmentary passage, perhaps in pages and pages of detail. Go to the right section of the Great Library for the place (and, if time travel is involved, the era) to which you wish to travel, pull down the appropriate book, look up possible Hosts, and choose one among them (a choice represented in game terms by the mechanics above). Then, by an act of will, you pass through the page and into the Host's mind.


2. On being in symbiosis with the host

2a. How does it feel to the Archivist? To the host?
When an Archivist takes a Host, the rush of sensation is overwhelming: One instant you are in the Great Library, incorporeal, intellectual, detached; the next you are immersed in flesh, assaulted by sight and smell and touch and taste and feel. The impact on the Host is subtler, but still unsettling, a nagging sense of being not quite oneself.
In game terms, the Archivist immediately takes one point of "Fade." The accumulation of Fade represents the erosion of the Archivist's ethereal nature by the pervasive physicality of human existence, just as a piece of paper thrown into the ocean first grows wet, then becomes soaked, then disintegrates altogether. An Archivist can safely endure points of Fade equal to its Transcendence. When Fade exceeds Transcendence, the Archivist Fades Out, as described below.
Meanwhile, the Host immediately takes one point of "Burn." The accumulation of Burn represents the over-stressing of the Host's human nature by the alien presence in his or her body, just as a wire carrying too much electrical current first grows hot, then smolders, then catches fire. A Host can safely endure points of Fade equal to his or her Humanity --but as a player, you do not know that limit at first, since the GM may or may not have secretly assigned Human Traits to the Host without telling you. When Burn exceeds Humanity, the Host Burns Out, as described below.

2b. Who's in control? A distinct Archivist? A symbiont mind?
From the moment the Archivist enters a human mind, the Archivist has the power of suggestion: It can plant thoughts in the Host's head on which the Host will act. In effect, the Archivist has control of the Host --within limits. In game terms, you as the player can freely describe what the Host, under suggestion, says and does.

2c. What traits does the symbiont inherit from the host? & 2d. What traits does the symbiont inherit from the Archivist? AND 2l. How does Multiple Personality Disorder happen? What is its effect? & 2m. How much harder does it become when you try to do things that are contrary to the Host's nature? AND (SORT OF) 2k. Can the Archivist 'reward' the Host?
Except that the Archivist-Host combination now possesses all the Traits of both beings --Neutral Traits (from the Host), Transcendent Traits (from the Archivist), and Human Traits (from both). And you as player do not know ANY of the Host's secret traits, as assigned by the GM, until the GM decides they come into play. Essentially you, as player, are roleplaying a composite Host-Archivist being that is suffering from a case of Multiple Personality Disorder.
The Archivist's power of suggestion works only as long as neither Host nor Archivist cares passionately about what is happening --in game terms, until the GM determines that a Human Trait of EITHER Host or Archivist comes into play: Then the Host will act appropriately for that Trait UNLESS you chose to have the Archivist SUPPRESS it.
If the Host acts according to ome of his or her own Human Traits, the Host is reasserting his or her own human nature. The Host loses points of Burn equal to the numerical value of the Human Trait or Traits in effect, moving further away from burn-out. (But note that Burn cannot be reduced below zero). Conversely, the rush of human emotion can overwhelm the Archivist, who gains points of Fade equal to the value of the Trait(s), moving closer to fade-out.
But it is also possible for the Host to be forced to act according to one of the ARCHIVIST'S Human Traits, as the residual human nature of the Archivist comes to the fore. In that case, the Archivist still gains points of Fade equal to the value of the Traits. However, the Host also gains Burn equal to the Traits: It's not the Host's human nature that is being expressed, so the Host moves closer to burn-out, not further away!
If the Archivist chooses to SUPPRESS one or more of the Host's Human Traits, that beats down the human nature of the Host, who takes Burn equal to the value of the Trait(s) suppressed, moving closer to burn-out. Conversely, by imposing its mastery on the flesh this way, the Archivist loses Fade equal to the Traits suppressed, moving further away from fade-out. (But note that Fade cannot be reduced below zero).
If the Archivist chooses to SUPPRESS one or more of its OWN Human Traits, it is denying its own residual humanity. The Archivist loses Fade equal to the Traits, as above, moving further from Fade-Out --but it also gains Burn equal to the Traits as if it were a human, moving closer to Burn-Out!

2e. What levels of power can the Archivist activate? At what cost? What is the absolute maximum? & 2f. What element shows the balance that is struck between host and Archivist? AND
2n. What actions do you take? How? How is success determined?
Whenever the Host-Archivist composite is trying to accomplish something of dramatic significance, a Test is required.
Any Neutral Traits of the Host that help in this situation (Strong in a fight, Handsome at a party) are added up as Bonuses. Any Neutral Traits that hurt (Weak in a fight, Ugly at a party) are added up as Penalties.
Any applicable Human Traits of EITHER Host or Archivist are counted up, similarly, as either bonuses or penalties depending on how the Trait helps in hinders in this particular situation. However, the Archivist may choose to Suppress some of these Traits, with the appropriate cost in Fade and Burn, in which case the Suppressed Traits do not count.
Finally, the Archivist may activate any of its Transcendent Traits that apply to the situation. An Archivist never MUST use a Transcendent Trait, it is always a choice; and an Archivist does not have to use the full value of a Transcendent Trait: e.g. you can only use 3 points of a 5-point Trait. For each point of Transcendent Trait used, the Archivist loses a point of Fade --moving further from Fade-Out as it reasserts its transcendent, inhuman nature --but the Host gains a point of Burn --moving closer to burn-out as inhuman powers are channeled through his or her merely mortal frame.
When all relevant Traits have been counted as Bonuses, counted as Penalties, or Suppressed, the GM may add additional Bonuses or Penalties to reflect the particular situation (such as the Traits of any opposing character). If the final total of all Bonuses is greater than the total of all Penalties, you succeed in your goal: The greater the difference by which bonuses exceed penalties, the greater the success, and the more the situation changes in the way you desired. If the final total of Penalties exceeds that of Bonuses, you fail: The greater the difference, the greater the failure, and the more the situation changes for the worse.

2g. How can you tell things are going out of control?
In game terms, you as a player will always know your Archivist's own Transcendence and Fade values, so you will always know when Fade-Out is dangerously near. As Fade-Out approaches, the Archivist's sense of self begins to dissolve, and the pressure of the senses becomes ever more overwhelming.
You will also know the Host's level of Burn, but not necessarily its Humanity, so you will not know exactly how close he or she is to Burn-Out. Every time the Host gains Burn, the GM should describe, in suitably ominous but vague terms, the approach of Burn-Out -- how the Host feels momentarily nauseous, or disoriented, or drunk, or wracked with fiery agony -- making the description worse and worse as Burn-Out gets closer and closer. The GM should make it clear that a Host within a few points of Burn-Out is in mental or physical agony, or both.

2h. What is Burn-Out? 2i. What is Fade-Out? 2j. Can you recover from them?
When a Host or Archivist accumulates Burn greater than his, her, or its Humanity, Burn-Out begins. For each point of Burn in excess of Humanity, you must select one of the character's Human Traits --starting with whichever Trait has been most frequently and severely Suppressed -- and reduce its value by one, PERMANENTLY: There is no recovery.
When a Host has no remaining Human Traits, he or she is Burned Out --a "hollow man," still alive but incapable of human feeling, his or her identity destroyed. When an Archivist has no remaining Human Traits, it is Burned Out in a different way, so alienated from human naure that it is incapable of ever entering a human mind again.
When an Archivist accumulates Fade greater than its Transcendence, Fade-Out begins. For each point of Fade in excess of Transcendence, you must select one of your Archivist's Transcendent Traits --starting with whichever Trait you have least used recently --and reduce it by one, PERMANENTLY. When an Archivist has no Transcendent Traits remaining, it has Fade Out: Its identity is swamped by that of the Host and it remains no more than a broken whisper in the back of a mortal mind.

{EDITED to add missing lines describing how the resolution system actually resolves}

Well done Sydney! But I can't figure out a thing...

On taking host... what would be the initial condition of a host? I mean what is written on his sheet?

Ok, let's read about this Dave, an archeologist... uh uh... mmm... ok, let's go inside him. BOOM, I'm inside, 1 fade for me and 1 burn for you.

GM gives me Dave's sheet. I see there are 4 human traits and 2 neutral traits.

Dave
Human Traits
History and Archeology expert
Bookworm
Verbose
Bull's-eye with his Revolver
Neutral Traits
Rerstless
Handsome

Note that I did not write down numerical values cause Archivist doesn't know and cause by adding human traits Archivist will know Dave's Humanity, right?

Ok, let's work this Dave. I've 5 Humanity points, GM grants me 2 extra points cause I read a lot about Dave. Now, by night Dave becomes:

Dave
Human Traits
History and Archeology expert +2
Bookworm +2
Verbose
Bull's-eye with his Revolver +1
Computer knowledge +2
Neutral Traits
Rerstless
Handsome

I used 7 points, my humanity is 5... GM adds 2 points to Dreadful Dreams.

On resolution... how can I use "my" History skill if I don't know its value? Or how can GM hide hosts humanity value by giving the host sheet to the player filled with numbers?

Doug - I'm sorry, saw your last post for the first time today. Must've slipped under the radar. Yes, it would have been a good idea - since I've received PM's about people stewing their thoughts (like Sydney obviously has). Glad to see we're on track again. This thread will take it's time, indeed.

Sydney - thanks for that. I haven't had a chance to read it, since I need to rush out for a presentation, but I will read it first chance I get, probably tomorrow.

Jediblack wrote: Ok, let's read about this Dave, an archeologist... let's go inside him. BOOM, I'm inside, 1 fade for me and 1 burn for you. GM gives me Dave's sheet.

Ok, here my version of Sydney ideas.

Archivist
10 Transcendent traits
5 Human traits
Transcendence: 10+x (x depends on character creation)

Host
10 Human traits
5 Neutral traits (such gift and fault. i.e. 8 gifts and 3 faults)
Humanity: 10+y (y depends mostly on Game Master and could be negative)

Symbiont
10 Host Human traits + 5 Archivist Human traits
10 Transcendent traits
5 Neutral traits
Transcendence: 10+x
Humanity: 10+y (this value is unknown to player)
Burn out: 1
Fade out : 1

These are the initial conditions of an archivist, of a host and of a Symbiont.

Humanity uses
By spending 1 Humanity point Symbiont can:

permanently add +1 to a human trait (both host or archivist one)
permanently add a new human trait with value 0



Transcendence use
By spending 1 Transcendence point Symbiont can:

add +1 to a check both human or transcendent
temporally suppress a fault



Taking actions
Human action
Human trait + Gift - Fault (suppressable) + x transcendent points vs Difficulty (with bonus or penalties).

If used Human trait value is >= Transcendence, Symbiont gains +1 Fade and -1 Burn.

Transcendent action
Transcendent trait + x transcendent poins vs Difficulty (with bonus or penalties).

If used Transcendent trait value is >= Humanity, Symbiont gains +1 Burn and -1 Fade.

Burn or Fade
If Burn is > Humanity, Symbiont loses 1 Humanity point and 1 point on a human trait, or gain 1 point on a fault most frequently suppressed.
If Fade is > Transcendence, Symbiont loses 1 Transcendence point and 1 point on a transcendent trait.

Regaining Transcendence
By quests on the Great Library... only an idea

Finally
Humanity = 0, Host = "Hollow man"
Transcendence = 0, Archivist = "Hollow archivist"

Good thing you took that deep breath, Sydney. :)

I'm going to riff off this for a bit.

Sydney Freedberg wrote:
0. On Becoming and Being an Archivist

0a. 'More than Human' - why become a Archivist? & 0b. How do you become an Archivist?
All those are possible options. The core is this: You wanted the truth so badly that you died for it. The force of that desire and that sacrifice burned your spirit into the universe like an after-image of a flash of lightning.
So you're a ghost. But not just any ghost. You are a spirit on a quest for knowledge. You're an Archivist.

Thanks for kind comments. I also note Tobias's sig is terribly appropriate in this context...

Tobias wrote: The mechanics on burn and fade look good. I think we need to flesh out what happens, in the Host's experience, when he acts under Archivist influence, but that's mostly color (although important to leaving the Host). I presume Burn-Out and Fade-Out, in their permanent versions, are irrepairable for both Host and Archivist?

Tobias wrote: Is there a 'levelling up' for the Archivist? (I think allowing the Archivist to only gain Transcendental traits as the game processes could be cool).

Tobias wrote: On the taking of actions and accumulating Bonuses and Penalties - at this point the GM steps in at the last moment and tosses in the final modifiers. Did you really intend for it this way?

I guess I should be careful what I wish for in future, that's a great big chunk of posting loveliness from everybody - it's beginning to look like we have a game on our hands!

I'm going to make a few observations about the latest contributions - Tobias, please let me know if you still want extra chapters form me afterwards, as I haven't finished these yet.

Archivist creation: If Archivism is a (difficult) choice, this leads me to think that Archivists will co-exist with 'regular' humans at any given time (unless the optional Time-Travelrules are invoked.) Is this correct?

Human and Transcendant Traits: perhaps the circumstances of your Archivism determine the number of Human and Transcendant Traits; someone who died for a cause may have more Human Traits, but less Transcendant Traits. The surgically-created Archivists of the distant future may have greater Transcendant power, but less Human Traits.

I also think we need to limit the scope of the Transcendant traits - if Archivists can use these traits to affect the world physically, then much of the point is lost - see my previous suggestion about 'telepathic' and 'energetic' powers, couldn't these be the two main Transcendent Traits?

Time Travel: Why not just decide whether or not Archivists can travel in time, and leave it at that? I'm not sure this needs a numerical rating.

The Great Library: I think the exact nature of the Library can be tweaked to fit different settings. For a time-travel campaign, it could be The Library at the End of the Universe, or a place Outside Time. Perhaps Archivists have perfect memory, and are their own Libraries. Perhaps the Library is a massive biological computer that the Archivists can 'possess' a part of, gaining access to the vast store of knowledge imprinted upon it's 'brain'.

Nemesis: I like the idea of this being a free choice as well, either by the players or as part of a setting.

Human 'Neutral Traits': These sound like physical features and skills to me. I'd suggest that there are 4(!) actual categories of Traits available.


• Physical Traits - These describe physical attributes (Strong, Ugly, Fast) and are solely the preserve of the Host.
• Knowledge Traits - Skills and learning. Both Archivist and Host have access to these, and over time they can learn these from each other
• Personality Traits - These are the 'Human Traits', both Archivists and Hosts have these, and the differences between these wil generate conflict.
• Transcendent Traits - As discussed.



This may seem complex, but I don't think a great number of Traits are required to run this game. I'm thinking something along the line of Aspects in Fate - there are relatively few of them, but the ones you have are really important.

Fade: I originally saw this as the Archivist succumbing to the emotions of the Host. I like the idea of taking a point of Fade just for making contact. I also agree that if a Human Trait is activated, then more Fade results. Ditto removing Fade by suppressing these instincts. However, I think that there should be a minimum amount of Fade, that gradually increases as the Archivist remains in the Host. After a long period of Possession, the Archivist should be at risk of 'Fading Out' every time the Host experiences a strong emotional state.

Burn: I think there is a difference between a Host's 'mental Burn-out' as a result of having their head screwed up by the Archivist, and 'physical Burn' as a result of the Archivist's energies coursing through the Host's body.

For 'Mental Burn' I agree that this should 'mirror' Fade. This also means that the minimum value of Burn should increase with time.

For 'Physical Burn' I'd add points every time the Archivist uses a special power. This type of Burn shouldn't go away - the Host pays a permanent (and ultimately, terrible) price for the Archivist's intervention.

Oh, and instead of damaging the Archivist, excessive Fade makes it impossible for an Archivist to leave their Host. This means that they are stuck unless they can somehow reduce their Fade level, or they are rescued by another Archivist.

Secret Human Traits: I like the idea of this, but I'm less keen about having the GM having to keep track of these for each roll. If the Archivist has telepathic powers, Secret Traits are going to be buried fairly deep in the Host. How about having a high-value Trait wth a 'trigger condition'. If the condition is met, the Archivist is going to have to deal with the consequences of the Host's actions, or take heavy Fade.

I think there's more to explore, but this is a hefty post and I think I need to sit back a bit and take more stock, and give you all some time to respond.

Can't resist engaging with Doug's comments, which are as always, well, engaging. Tobias, if you want us to stop commenting back and forth on this rules draft and wait for others to submit "chapters," just give the word (conversely, if you think we should thrash out the proposals on table even more, let's do that).

Doug Ruff wrote: If Archivism is a (difficult) choice, this leads me to think that Archivists will co-exist with 'regular' humans at any given time ...

Doug Ruff wrote: perhaps the circumstances of your Archivism determine the number of Human and Transcendant Traits...

Doug Ruff wrote: we need to limit the scope of the Transcendant traits - if Archivists can use these traits to affect the world physically, then much of the point is lost

Doug Ruff wrote: the exact nature of the Library can be tweaked to fit different settings

Doug Ruff wrote: Human 'Neutral Traits': These sound like physical features and skills to me. I'd suggest that there are 4(!) actual categories of Traits available [:]...Physical Traits ...Knowledge ....Personality Traits -[aka] 'Human Traits'....Transcendent....

.

Doug Ruff wrote: ....there should be a minimum amount of Fade, that gradually increases as the Archivist remains in the Host. After a long period of Possession, the Archivist should be at risk of 'Fading Out' every time the Host experiences a strong emotional state.

Doug Ruff wrote: I think there is a difference between a Host's 'mental Burn-out' as a result of having their head screwed up by the Archivist, and 'physical Burn' as a result of the Archivist's energies coursing through the Host's body.

Doug Ruff wrote: If the Archivist has telepathic powers, Secret Traits are going to be buried fairly deep in the Host.

Doug Ruff wrote: How about having a high-value Trait wth a 'trigger condition'. If the condition is met, the Archivist is going to have to deal with the consequences of the Host's actions, or take heavy Fade.

Sydney,

Thanks for your detailed (and engaging!) reply. It helps me to realise that we have a similar take on most of this. Which means I'm going to focus on the differences, of course.

Transcendent Traits: There's not actually that much difference here; I agree that we need to flesh these out, so I'm not going to worry about this for now.

Different Trait Categories: This isn't such a difference either, I also agree that the differences should be down to game function only. Difference is, I'm trying to add another function, some Traits can be exchanged between the Archivist and the Host. If I possess Bruce Lee, maybe I'm going to learn a few tricks that I can use in my next Host. Similarly, maybe walking a mile in Gandhi's sandals might make me (the Archivist) a better person. Similarly, if I keep 'suggesting' scientific information to my Host, he may retain some of this knowledge when I depart.

Splitting the traits up into categories is my first clumsy stab at introducing this possibility.

The 'Fade Clock': If I read your previous posts correctly, each point of Fade is equivalent to a point of Burn - when one goes down, the other goes up. This is effectively a 'zero-sum' game. What bothers me about this is that it is possible (although the GM can make it difficult!) to maintain an indefinite balance this way. I give the host his rein, I compensate by using powers, or I get my way next time. I want something that makes long-term possession a priori dangerous. By gradually increasing the total amount of Fade and/or Burn the Archivist has to 'juggle', it gets harder and harder to maintain the balance.

And this is where the 'Secret Trait' comes in. Imagine that my Host has a 4-point Fear of Spiders trait that the Archivist doesn't know about. Any time that Trait triggers, either the Archivist has to take 4 points of Fade, or the Host takes 4 points of Burn. That's gonna hurt, especially if there isn't enough slack to play with.

Mental vs Physical Burn: Maybe I'm being a bit Sim about this, but I don't see the connect between these. I see mental Burn as being incurred through the Host's exposure to different feelings and knowledge (Multiple Personality Disorder) and Physical Burn as the irrevocable 'radiation' cost of the Archivist's powers. However, I think this is also a separate topic, and fully appreciate why it could be handled differently (choosing between mental or phsysical damage for the Host, ouch! I like that.)

I've got a meeting of a couple of hours first, so won't be able to post anything long, but I'll notice these things:

1. Transcendent powers do need to be fleshed out, but since they're likely to be similar to traditional superpowers (unless we come up with something new and innovative), I think it'd be ok to leave them alone for a while while we hammer out these basics.

2. I DO want people to post their own chapters, please. Sydney's contribution is great, but it's one vision. Let's at least have one to compare it with (and I need to write one myself, I realise).

3. ALSO continue with sparring on Sydney's version. Why? Because, basically, the energy we've got going will die out if we don't.

4. I'll also say I think both Sydney and Doug make some excellent points. It's like having 2 menu's to choose from (for me) at this stage - I'll toss my own ingredients in the mix soon.

5. Note that there's a innate difference between archivist-dom through tech (limited to an advanced future... or a forgotten past, or secret technological knowledge from that forgotten past), or through mystical means present throughout all time. The CCG thing on traits is impossible (imho) with the tech-option (as currently written).

(1) Redefining Traits

Having pondered Doug's thoughts on (1) different trait categories and (2) physical vs. mental burn, I've come around to the idea of rejiggering Trait categories myself. Here's a tentative thought, essentially renaming Transcendent Traits and Human Traits (though the overall terms Transcendence and Humanity should remain) and splitting the bland "Neutral Traits" in two -- and allowing the Archivist to have some too, as emotionally neutral residues of their human selves alongside Human Traits:

Logoi (sing. logos), an ancient Greek term meaning variously "word," "reason," and "the governing principles of the universe" : the mighty Knowledge that only Archivists can posses. Take effect in play only by the player's choice, reducing Fade but increasing Burn.
[theological digression] The Gospel of John uses the singular term "Logos" for Christ's divine (rather than human) nature, i.e. "the Word [of God]."[/theological digression]

Passions : the drives that, for good or ill, make us distinctly human. Take effect in play automatically, increasing Fade (and either increasing or reducing Burn depending on whether it's the Host's or the Archivist's Passions in play) -- unless the player chooses to Suppress them, reducing Fade but increasing Burn.

Abilities : Mundane positive attributes of a character -- skills, talents, natural gifts, etc. If they belong to the Host, or if they belong to the Archivist but are substantially similar to those of the Host (e.g. Archivist has "Sniper," Host has "Soldier"), they can be used at will without any cost in Fade or Burn. If they belong to the Archivist and are not congruent with any Ability of the Host, they can be used at will, but only a cost in Burn to the Host, and without any benefits vs. Fade to the Archivist -- these are not Transcendence-enhancing traits, but emotionally neutral vestiges of the Archivist's human past. (N.B. That this is my attempt to incorporate Andrew's idea of differing costs for Archvists doing things that in-character vs. out-of-character for their Host).

Disabilities: Mundane negative attributes -- areas of below-average skill, physical handicaps, injuries or illness. They come into play automatically as penalties unless Suppressed (the Archivist forces the Host to overcome his/her limits) at a cost in Burn, but no gain in Fade.

For each point by which Host's Burn exceeds his/her Humanity limit, the player must choose: remove one point from one the Host's Passions, permanently, hollowing him/her out spiritually and emotionally (this is the only option in the current rules, and equates to Doug's "Mental Burn"); or add one point of Disabilities to the Host, sickening and ultimately crippling him/her physically (this is a new option, and equates to Doug's "Physical Burn").

Note that Humanity still equals total Passions only; mundane Abilities, even those possessed by an Archivist as a legacy of its human past, don't count towards Humanity because they lack the emotional power.


(2) Other, smaller things:

Doug Ruff wrote: If I read your previous posts correctly, each point of Fade is equivalent to a point of Burn - when one goes down, the other goes up. This is effectively a 'zero-sum' game.

Doug Ruff wrote: Imagine that my Host has a 4-point Fear of Spiders trait that the Archivist doesn't know about. Any time that Trait triggers, either the Archivist has to take 4 points of Fade, or the Host takes 4 points of Burn. That's gonna hurt...

Having just posted that I didn't think we should worry too much about Transcendent Traits (which I propose renaming Logoi) right now...

Tobias wrote: ...there's a innate difference between archivist-dom through tech (limited to an advanced future... or a forgotten past, or secret technological knowledge from that forgotten past), or through mystical means present throughout all time. The CCG thing on traits is impossible (imho) with the tech-option (as currently written).

Tobias wrote: having 5 1's as human traits (weak human traits) does feel a bit counter-intuitive with the 'burning quest for knowledge' thing.

Sydney,

I'm going to stop short of adopting Logoi permanently for now, but I'll use it in this response as it's a useful abbreviation of Transcendent Traits.

Having Logoi that directly represent how an Archivist came to be is remarkably similar to having "Origin Powers" in superhero-genre games. While I like the idea in itself, I'm less than comfortable with having it as a mainstay of this particular game.

I think that's because I've got certain preconceptions (prejudices, even) about how Archivism works - I see it as a natural state within the Setting. This implies that any Archivist should be able to learn any of the Logoi - although actual proficiency will vary, and this could be based on personality or cultural differences (these are psychic powers, after all).

I also think that "how Archivism works" has to be settled before we will be able to agree on a mechanic for representing it - and I'm more than happy for you to challenge that stance as a Game Design Prejudice.

However, it means that I'm feeling a bit stuck right now - I don't feel I can engage with you properly over how to represent something, when I'm not sure that we share the same Idea of what we are attempting to represent. How do you feel about this?

Doug Ruff wrote: Having Logoi that directly represent how an Archivist came to be is remarkably similar to having "Origin Powers" in superhero-genre games. [BUT] any Archivist should be able to learn any of the Logoi - although actual proficiency will vary, and this could be based on personality or cultural differences...

Doug Ruff wrote: "how Archivism works" has to be settled before we will be able to agree on a mechanic for representing it - and I'm more than happy for you to challenge that stance as a Game Design Prejudice....I don't feel I can engage with you properly over how to represent something, when I'm not sure that we share the same Idea of what we are attempting to represent.

Sydney Freedberg wrote:
Abilities : Mundane positive attributes of a character -- skills, talents, natural gifts, etc. If they belong to the Host, or if they belong to the Archivist but are substantially similar to those of the Host (e.g. Archivist has "Sniper," Host has "Soldier"), they can be used at will without any cost in Fade or Burn. If they belong to the Archivist and are not congruent with any Ability of the Host, they can be used at will, but only a cost in Burn to the Host, and without any benefits vs. Fade to the Archivist -- these are not Transcendence-enhancing traits, but emotionally neutral vestiges of the Archivist's human past. (N.B. That this is my attempt to incorporate Andrew's idea of differing costs for Archvists doing things that in-character vs. out-of-character for their Host).

Sydney Freedberg wrote: Figuring out how Hosts' and Archivists' traits rub off on each other. This is a really cool thing and it needs a mechanic... and I'm blanking. Help?

My comments on Andrew's comments on, uh, my comments....

Andrew Morris wrote:

Sydney Freedberg wrote:
Abilities : ...(N.B. That this is my attempt to incorporate Andrew's idea of differing costs for Archvists doing things that in-character vs. out-of-character for their Host).

...Not exactly what I was thinking, but close, and more refined.

Andrew Morris wrote:

Sydney Freedberg wrote: ...how Hosts' and Archivists' traits rub off on each other.

Maybe we have a list of minor to severe results of Burn/Fade, and this is one of them?

Gentlemen,

Your humble foot awaits your needs on what your brains need from me to keep on going on this. :)

I've been really busy because I will go to the US of A tomorrow, for 9 days of work and recreation. My internet access at that time will be varying greatly, so I propose we turn over Foot-dom to Sydney for that period.

If there's anyone out in Washington D.C., cincinnatti or pittsburgh with an evening to spare next week, let me know. :)

Tobias,

Seconded (sorry Sydney) - and enjoy your trip!

Tobias wrote: I will go to the US of A tomorrow, for 9 days of work and recreation. My internet access at that time will be varying greatly, so I propose we turn over Foot-dom to Sydney for that period. If there's anyone out in Washington D.C., cincinnatti or pittsburgh with an evening to spare next week, let me know. :)

Sydney Freedberg wrote: (1) Defining Archivist-ness more precisely, and deciding which aspects of Archivist nature are the essential core, which are merely recommended, and which are entirely customizable.
(1') As a crucial subset of Archivist-ness, defining Transcendent Traits / Logoi more precisely, again looking at core/recommended/customizable.

Doug, thanks for your thoughts.

I think I'll actually take on the mantle. So, as Acting Foot ("my left foot"?), I''ll give everyone a few more hours to make suggestions as to additional topics that might be required. Assuming no radical new ideas emerge, after work today I will start two new threads on "Advanced Archivism" and "Make Your Own Metagame" as outlined above and seconded by Doug.

And if things slow down for a few days while Tobias and I are both travelling, well, we've had slow patches before, and the project will survive. It's a natural (iterative!) rhythm. Yeah.

Okay, I'm unbelievably busy at the moment, but I don't want to "Fade Out" from this project, so here's my first comment on the proposed mechanics. (By the way, I think this is a great foundation, and I'd much rather hone this one than worry about creating a whole new set of mechanics.)

I don't like the choose-your-own style traits, and I'll explain why. It feels unfinished and unbalanced to me. I'm all for players having freedom when creating characters, but I think there should be at least a core list of traits, so that players can get a feel for what a "trait" looks like. With having players just come up with their own, you might have one player who takes "Unarmed Combat:1" and another who takes "Soldier:2." The first player is kinda shafted by their own choice, because their choice is a subset of the second player's choice.

If we're going this route, I think we absolutely need (at least) a well-defined set of rules/parameters for creating traits.

That's just the first things that pops into my mind when I look over the mechanics we have, but I'll try to give some more detailed opinions/ideas in the next few days.

Andrew Morris wrote: I don't like the choose-your-own style traits....It feels ...unbalanced to me.... you might have one player who takes "Unarmed Combat:1" and another who takes "Soldier:2." The first player is kinda shafted by their own choice, because their choice is a subset of the second player's choice.

Agreed that this is a problem with freeform traits, but if you use a "re-roll" mechanic like Fate does with Aspects, you can still retain a reasonable balance.

If you haven't read Fate: Aspects provide one re-roll for each "point" in the Aspect (this is a simplification, by the way, but it's this use of Aspects I want to illustrate). So a "broad" Aspect has more opportunities to be used, but you will only get the same number of re-rolls.

Fate also has a Skills system, where the Skills are predefined for each setting. I think there's a lot we can steal.... sorry, learn from this game in terms of dealing with "free-form" abilities.

And I'm not comfortable enough with the suggested mechanics yet to want to commit to them absolutely - if it's alright with everyone else, I'd like to explore the two suggested threads first, and then come back to this - I think it would be useful to look again at them in the light of what we discover over the next few days.

Interesting about FATE. I've read it once but don't recall it that well, so your tips are welcome.

Doug Ruff wrote: I'm not comfortable enough with the suggested mechanics yet to want to commit to them absolutely - if it's alright with everyone else, I'd like to explore the two suggested threads first, and then come back to this.