Hi,

It's been a while since I've posted much hereabouts. Anyway, I have finally put together a text only (i.e. no illustrations) complete pdf version of the medieval horror and intrigue game Danse Macabre that I've been working on with Dean Sutter for some months now.

I thought I'd see if I could get a little first glance feedback...

The download site is here: http://mythogames.150m.com/folder_01/dm_002.htm

Let me know how you find the game. Any and all comments welcome. Do the rules look logical and simple enough? Is the setting well described and full of enough hooks? Does the game feel more or less complete? The usual.

Thanks ahead of time for any comments...

Chris

If this comes off harsh it is just because I don't want to see anyone waste their time putting out work that isn't as good as it could be.

Character sheet:
Skills: the 4th box on the first row and the 3rd box in the second row are showing up oddly for me.


2nd page
You don't need to repeat the name of your system on every page.
Sorcerous Things sounds stupid.

Bottom of third page:
You might want to put a dividing line between Family History and the Enemies and Allies sections.

Illustrated version of Chapter One:
I hate the boarder design.

Section by the Unknown Scholar:
Does he hate his books? If not why say Book-Infested?

Last paragraph: "How long will I have?" Why not say "How long do I have?"

Introduction: Why are you telling someone buying a small print RPG what an RPG is for? This text is better suited for the back of a book if you plan on printing this.

"...to tell yourself a few tales..." could be "...to tell yourself tales..." Few would imply you don't expect the player to do much of this.

In the second warning about drinking hemlock, just say, "Consumption will kill you."

The overview feels like a rehashing of the Introduction

I like the descriptions of different game play styles.


Got tired of reading it. The story told by the scholar is rather dry. Doesn't draw me in as of the character creation section. I'll comment on what you want if I read more.

I, on the other hand, thought it was brilliant. I started without much more than cursory interest, but this has a definite vision that differs from both Ars Magica and Vampire Dark Ages, the other two medieval setting-heavy games I'm familiar with.

There are typos to fix, of course, and character generation desperately needs a summary or flowchart. It seemed to go on and on. There's a lot to cover. I presume you'll have a clear and comprehensive example of chargen so we can see it through from the Alpha to the Omega. I skipped the fiction sections - not that interested in game fiction for the most part - if I want fiction, I go elsewhere than game books to look for it.

I haven't finished the manuscript yet, but -- and perhaps you've already covered this later, and I just haven't encountered it -- I'd like to see how you envision a group coming together to play this. What kinds of characters, what kinds of interactions between those who have different soul tempers, etc.

I'll post more feedback when I've finished the read.

Best,

Blake

Chris:

I'm mostly with Blake on this - I can see where you're going - and it looks cool. I'm just a little concerned with some of the detours you take to get there. A lot of this boils down to style preferences, I suspect.

I noticed a lot of tortured language, typos and grammar mistakes - and none of these are my forte. I'd reccommend - before you publically release the game - that you have a friendly editor type take a good hack at it.

The best editors help you, the author, do the best job of saying what you want to say, how you want to say it, as effectively as possible.

I too thought that chargen went on and on forever - and could use a trimming down and a flowchart as already suggested. Also - and I haven't finished reading yet - you could use a short chapter on resolution and rules before chargen - which ought to make it easier for folks (IMO) to make up the character they desire.

There were a couple of passages that bordered on preachy - especially when you talk about why you made the decision not to use detailed weapon stats.

Finally, a fully fleshed out sample of play - running several pages at least - that highlights 80% of the system (especially the virtue/vice mechanics, which seem central to the game) needs to be put in there as well.

Looks like you've got the hard part finished - it just needs a lot of aggressive editing and playtesting.

Cheers.

I'll second Jason's request for an extended example of play to showcase most of the rules.

Best,

Blake

Thanks for the feedback.

If this comes off harsh it is just because I don't want to see anyone waste their time putting out work that isn't as good as it could be.

Skills: the 4th box on the first row and the 3rd box in the second row are showing up oddly for me.

You don't need to repeat the name of your system on every page.
Sorcerous Things sounds stupid.

Bottom of third page:
You might want to put a dividing line between Family History and the Enemies and Allies sections.

Illustrated version of Chapter One:
I hate the boarder design.

Section by the Unknown Scholar:
Does he hate his books? If not why say Book-Infested?

Introduction: Why are you telling someone buying a small print RPG what an RPG is for? This text is better suited for the back of a book if you plan on printing this.

"...to tell yourself a few tales..." could be "...to tell yourself tales..." Few would imply you don't expect the player to do much of this.

The overview feels like a rehashing of the Introduction

Got tired of reading it. The story told by the scholar is rather dry. Doesn't draw me in as of the character creation section. I'll comment on what you want if I read more.

There are typos to fix, of course, and character generation desperately needs a summary or flowchart. It seemed to go on and on. There's a lot to cover. I presume you'll have a clear and comprehensive example of chargen so we can see it through from the Alpha to the Omega. I skipped the fiction sections - not that interested in game fiction for the most part - if I want fiction, I go elsewhere than game books to look for it.

I haven't finished the manuscript yet, but -- and perhaps you've already covered this later, and I just haven't encountered it -- I'd like to see how you envision a group coming together to play this. What kinds of characters, what kinds of interactions between those who have different soul tempers, etc.

I noticed a lot of tortured language, typos and grammar mistakes - and none of these are my forte. I'd reccommend - before you publically release the game - that you have a friendly editor type take a good hack at it.

I too thought that chargen went on and on forever - and could use a trimming down and a flowchart as already suggested. Also - and I haven't finished reading yet - you could use a short chapter on resolution and rules before chargen - which ought to make it easier for folks (IMO) to make up the character they desire.

There were a couple of passages that bordered on preachy - especially when you talk about why you made the decision not to use detailed weapon stats.

Finally, a fully fleshed out sample of play - running several pages at least - that highlights 80% of the system (especially the virtue/vice mechanics, which seem central to the game) needs to be put in there as well.

I'll have a look at that. I've printed the sheets, and haven't seen anything odd, so it could be an on-screen artifact?

On the characters sheet? Fair enough. I could change Sorcerous Things to something simpler. Sorcery? Occult?

Other people have told me they quite liked it. I'm not thrilled with it, but it more or less fits the mood and isn't too distracting. What didn't you like about it? I can have a go at creating something else. I was also considering just going with a very simple black line.

This is one of those running jokes, isn't it? Why do small press games always try to explain to you *again* what roleplaying is.

Anyway, my experience is that the 'what is roleplaying' section is always different. I've sort of come to the conclusion that a 'what is roleplaying' section acutally gives you insight into what the author thinks rolelaying is - and the opportunity to decide whether the author's attitude is likely to suit you're own.

If the section talks mostly about adventuring and fighting dragons, you know what you're in for. If it talks a lot about living out a romantic and tragic story then you've a fair idea what the game will turn into.

Also, if this is posted as a free pdf (publication is unlikely) people unfamilair to roleplaying may download it. It remains a useful thing to add in there.

Yikes. That falls nicely into the bad things category. Is it your sort of game, though? I'll be less concerned if you've never felt much inclination towards dark fantasy or horror like CoC or medieval games like Ars Magica.

If, on the other hand, that's exactly your cup of tea, I'm worried that you found it tiring just reading the game.

I've looked more closely at the border on my printed version. You're right, it is pixillated. I just hadn't looked at it closely enough.

If we publish (still a big if) I'll pay a freelancer to produce something more professional. Ditto for the illustrations which are just my own amateur work. I just don't have the art skills to produce anything seriously professional.

Interesting point about the fiction. I tried to make his story more mysterious than horrifying to begin with and then as the scholar's story unfolds in later chapters you see more and more of what is really going on. Its a fine line isn't it? If you get to close to something it loses its mystery. But, if you don't provide enough detail an element in a story feels vague and distant.

I haven't had anyone seriously comment on the setting elements yet, so I'm definitely curious to hear what you think. I have put a fair amount of effort into making sure the setting and system make sense together - if a spell, power or demonic thingy appears in the setting it is there in the mechanics as well.

But, what I'm not sure about is that the setting will actually read well and feel engaging.

Chris

EDIT:

The genre is definatly my style though I didn't get much of a sense that it was at all similar to Call of Cthulhu. The game I'm working on is horror-fantasy 1984 with vampires.

Just a quick note on the art in the formatted chapter, as most of the observations from my brief read-through have been mentioned by others already.

Firstly, the art is actually pretty good, definitely good enough for a professional game book, and nicely evocative of the dark medieval setting you're putting forth. Don't be too harsh on yourself. The only problems I see with the visual art is that it is, as lyebaptism mentioned, rather pixelated, and the border is too heavy and dark when placed next to the pencils and the text.

Maybe lighten the border a bit and scan the art with a higher resolution for the final product, and I think you'll have a nice looking book.

I'll add that though I am not a fan of game fiction (as mentioned), I may troll through it for mood and ideas after I've become familiar with the rules.

I'd like to see more discussion of possible gameplay structure, thoughts on story tropes, etc. Your "Call of Cthulhu but with the fae" is a start.

Best,

Blake

Howdy.

I've mostly medium-skimmed through the rules, but here are a few comments:


The beginning of the book, as has been mentioned, is a bit tortured, prose-wise. I thought it got better later in the book; 'purpled' prose is very hard to write well, unless you're someone like Lovecraft or Vance. You're trying for stylistic effect as opposed to just overheated descriptive writing, right? :) Actually, the fiction seemed to work the same way; it didn't do anything for me at first, but as I looked at the later segments, it caught my interest. Your attention to 'colorful' details is a strong point (the Slavic bandits with blue and gold shawls, chickens running around the floor of the inn, etc.)

Even just skimming, I've seen many, many typos, both punctuation and misspelled words.

Your types of magic seem well-defined and purposeful (in the context of the setting), something that seems usually lacking in fantasy games with multiple magics.

I like how the 'Spiritual Attributes' are directly connected to play and to the setting itself. I'm a big fan of characters and setting functioning, in a way, as metaphorical reflections of each other.

I need to read the conflict mechanics more closely, but I did read the section on armor (another pet peeve of mine in fantasy systems), and I thought your take was unique and even tactically interesting; it accomplished your stated purpose (of having a heavily armored opponent be very hard to damage.)

I also liked the 'levels of play' discussion; it recognizes a flexibility inherent in the setting as well as the 'dark fantasy' genre as a whole, not to mention the playing style of different groups. I'd suggest pushing the open discussion of play style even more.

I'd suggest reworking the 'What is Roleplaying?' section. Some of your statements, especiallly about the gm/player divide, as well as the the purpose of rules in general, may be true for your vision of this particular game, but are certainly not immutable truths. I don't know if you meant it that way, but that's how it read to me.

I'll read the setting in more detail as well. The mention of the setting in the intro confused me; it seemed sometimes like an alternate Earth and sometimes wholly imaginary. I'm grooving on the monsters, however. Again, your attention to detail takes what could easily be generic creatures and gives them personality (the gargouille having dog bones as one of the components of its make-up is a good example.)

BTW, the copy I downloaded ends at p. 207, with the scenario seeming to carry on to the next page. What the hell happens to the Ashen Man?? :)

Hi,

Maybe lighten the border a bit and scan the art with a higher resolution for the final product, and I think you'll have a nice looking book.

Even just skimming, I've seen many, many typos, both punctuation and misspelled words.

I like how the 'Spiritual Attributes' are directly connected to play and to the setting itself. I'm a big fan of characters and setting functioning, in a way, as metaphorical reflections of each other.

I need to read the conflict mechanics more closely, but I did read the section on armor (another pet peeve of mine in fantasy systems), and I thought your take was unique and even tactically interesting; it accomplished your stated purpose (of having a heavily armored opponent be very hard to damage.)

I'd suggest reworking the 'What is Roleplaying?' section. Some of your statements, especiallly about the gm/player divide, as well as the the purpose of rules in general, may be true for your vision of this particular game, but are certainly not immutable truths. I don't know if you meant it that way, but that's how it read to me.

The mention of the setting in the intro confused me; it seemed sometimes like an alternate Earth and sometimes wholly imaginary. I'm grooving on the monsters, however. Again, your attention to detail takes what could easily be generic creatures and gives them personality (the gargouille having dog bones as one of the components of its make-up is a good example.)

I'd like to see more discussion of possible gameplay structure, thoughts on story tropes, etc. Your "Call of Cthulhu but with the fae" is a start.

The beginning of the book, as has been mentioned, is a bit tortured, prose-wise. I thought it got better later in the book; 'purpled' prose is very hard to write well, unless you're someone like Lovecraft or Vance. You're trying for stylistic effect as opposed to just overheated descriptive writing, right? :)

I've read your PDF and I must say i'm impresed. It has very good structure and layout. The only thing I see that could be "tweaked" is the points scale for learning skills. Certain skills may be more useful than others in the same selection (i.e all craft skills cost the same at the same rank). If the system is more geared towards role-playing than roll-playing, which it looks like it is you may not have a problem with the skill system. Also, please under no circumstances take this next comment as a slam or insult, but why is it that your game mechanics look very familier to White Wolf's World of Darkness? Were you inspired by that game system?


Just my 2 cents

Peregrine,

I think your game has a lot of potential. I have always been a fan of games which slowly grind the characters mind/souls into dust throughout play and I feel that your Nature and Fear rules (along with the corresponding corruptions and deliriums) do this beautiful.

I like that motivation is the first thing you decide on your character sheet. However, I didn’t see any rules concerning it in the rules. Without some kind of mechanical benefit there is no reason to follow ones motivation. (For a good example of a motivation stat done well, check out the kicker stat in Sorcerer by Dr. Ron Edwards.)

I also like that you have backgrounds. They pull players closer to their characters and make it all the more painful as they are stripped of their humanity. However, as it stands now, some motivations are clearly dominant over others. At this point there is absolutely no reason for someone to choose a background like Terrors. (You mention that backgrounds are not about power. However, like it or not, if there is a vast power difference, they will be.) I can think of two ways to solve this problem. (I’d recommend only one of these two.)
1. You don’t need negative backgrounds. Bad stuff will happen to these characters as play progresses and its no fun to watch a wretched person get even more retched. Simply remove the negative backgrounds and power balance the others. Problem solved.
2. You don’t need the statistical element in backgrounds. Let backgrounds function only to create interesting encounters/conflicts. (Example: a character is ‘afraid’ of something. More times then not, in horror, it’s the person who is supposedly most afraid who manages to face the horror. And, yes, someone who has adventured is more likely to have certain skills, but let him buy those, don’t give it to them free.)

Your game has a fairly simple basic conflict resolution system. The rules for Contests, opposed, unopposed and extended, work well. But you then go and build separate conflict systems for melee conflicts, archery conflicts, pain, awareness, poison, awakening and probably a few I forgot. Your rules system would be much stronger if it were more streamlined. (Poison or dodging arrows could be treated as an unopposed conflict, with you rolling against difficulty. Hard melee combat would be a struggle to break your opponents resolve, etc.) If you were to take all of the little Contest charts and merge them into one big contest chart, without any penalties and replace the individual explanatory text with a few examples it would work nicely. (And lets face it, when fictional characters fight a stab wound or two to the chest doesn’t slow them down. Its only when their resolve breaks or they actually die that any effective difference is made.)

As your game currently stands, there is no reason not to be a noble. You will have more power. You will have higher stats. You can do more things. You will, as a result, most likely get more play time. I can not see any reason, as of now, to play anything but a noble. One way to fix this would be to grant the other character upbringings extra effort points to spend as the game progresses to counter balance this.

Almost forgot. I like your rules for effort, fortune and fate. Good stuff.

I think you have the potential for an excellent game here. Best of luck.

Best,
Bill

Hi,

You, know, I've got to say that I am thoroughly impressed with the quality of feedback I'm getting here. I've wandered in and out of the Forge for a couple years, but there really does seem to be an astute crowd hovering about at the moment.

've read your PDF and I must say i'm impresed. It has very good structure and layout.

The only thing I see that could be "tweaked" is the points scale for learning skills. Certain skills may be more useful than others in the same selection (i.e all craft skills cost the same at the same rank).

Also, please under no circumstances take this next comment as a slam or insult, but why is it that your game mechanics look very familier to White Wolf's World of Darkness? Were you inspired by that game system?

I like that motivation is the first thing you decide on your character sheet. However, I didn’t see any rules concerning it in the rules. Without some kind of mechanical benefit there is no reason to follow ones motivation. (For a good example of a motivation stat done well, check out the kicker stat in Sorcerer by Dr. Ron Edwards.)

I also like that you have backgrounds. They pull players closer to their characters and make it all the more painful as they are stripped of their humanity. However, as it stands now, some motivations are clearly dominant over others. At this point there is absolutely no reason for someone to choose a background like Terrors. (You mention that backgrounds are not about power. However, like it or not, if there is a vast power difference, they will be.)

Your game has a fairly simple basic conflict resolution system. The rules for Contests, opposed, unopposed and extended, work well. But you then go and build separate conflict systems for melee conflicts, archery conflicts, pain, awareness, poison, awakening and probably a few I forgot.

Your rules system would be much stronger if it were more streamlined. (Poison or dodging arrows could be treated as an unopposed conflict, with you rolling against difficulty. Hard melee combat would be a struggle to break your opponents resolve, etc.

As your game currently stands, there is no reason not to be a noble. You will have more power. You will have higher stats. You can do more things. You will, as a result, most likely get more play time. I can not see any reason, as of now, to play anything but a noble. One way to fix this would be to grant the other character upbringings extra effort points to spend as the game progresses to counter balance this.

Hello all, I'm the other designer of Danse Macabre.

I think we may need to add more comments about the social implications within the game. The social aspects play a huge part. This is mostly narrative and it is left to the Gm to hold this end of things up, but I have found that social consequences work well.
I guess we are relying on the honesty of player to be true to their concept rather than trying to create a powerful pc based on mechanics. Believe me it won't matter how tough you make your character, they are still mortal, and that spells doom for anyone.

This game won't be for everybody, I realise this, but for those that like to immerse themselves in colourful characters I think this game does its job.

A flow chart for chargen would be a good idea. It is not that difficult once people know what they are doing.
At its most basic it works like this...

Decide concept
Choose upbringing
Then assign backgrounds to give the character colour and purpose.
Decide on motivation - this is more an aid for the GM than anything else. If the GM knows the character's underlying reason for traveling or whatever it is easier to hook a character into a scenario.
Select aspects of nature - sin, virtue and caprice (this will dictate starting taint/purity or abandon)
Select skills (be sure to add modifiers from backgrounds)
What we usually do here is to write down the skills that interest you then add their defaults, then add any background modifiers then add the 12 skill points last. A skill of 4 would be competent, but a skill of 5 or 6 in specialised areas would be encouraged. For example, I would expect a character calling himself a swordsman to have at least 5 in Affray.
Choose belongings
Select wealth level
Finish equipping character and adding fine details (appearance, name etc.)

That's most of it.
Although I do agree it is dragged out at the moment.

Hi Dean,

I think we may need to add more comments about the social implications within the game. The social aspects play a huge part. This is mostly narrative and it is left to the Gm to hold this end of things up, but I have found that social consequences work well.

I guess we are relying on the honesty of player to be true to their concept rather than trying to create a powerful pc based on mechanics. Believe me it won't matter how tough you make your character, they are still mortal, and that spells doom for anyone.