Topic: Advice on the best "off-the-shelf" RPG creator
Started by: maxuser
Started on: 1/12/2005
Board: RPG Theory
On 1/12/2005 at 7:46pm, maxuser wrote:
Advice on the best "off-the-shelf" RPG creator
Any thoughts from the group as to what the best commercially available and profession RPG engine may be? I prefer one that follows a gold-standard such as the AD&D ruleset.
Clearly the folks at BioWare have the most successful product, but they also charge too much for the rights to their stuff.
On 1/12/2005 at 7:52pm, TonyLB wrote:
RE: Advice on the best "off-the-shelf" RPG creator
You might be better finding a somewhat more technical forum. Most of the expertise here is in pen-and-paper RPG design.
Which is not to say that somebody might not have some very good advice. Just that not everybody is going to be able to address this particular question.
On 1/12/2005 at 8:24pm, timfire wrote:
Re: Advice on the best "off-the-shelf" RPG creator
maxuser wrote: Any thoughts from the group as to what the best commercially available and profession RPG engine may be?
While I can't address the technical side of this question, I will say this (and this is the P&P designer in me speaking): There's no such thing as "better/worse", only better/worse *for a specific purpose.*
Different engines work better with different game concepts.
On 1/12/2005 at 8:31pm, Vaxalon wrote:
RE: Advice on the best "off-the-shelf" RPG creator
Definitely HumanBrain version 1.0, with the addons Imagination 6.1 and Diligence 2.2. You'll probably find the whole system works more efficiently if you make sure to run ActualPlay on a regular basis.
On 1/12/2005 at 8:56pm, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
RE: Advice on the best "off-the-shelf" RPG creator
Timfire has the point, I must say. Considering an answer (I know nothing about the matter, but am convinced that you can answer anything by thinking hard enough), I come to the conclusion that any engine (if you mean the technical tools and not the rules system) can be a basis for a kick-ass game, as long as the game is tailored to the engine.
If you're doing the classical CRPG, my quite-serious-but-hopelessly-too-experimental answer is that you should hire Thomas Biskup (a German computer programmer) and the engine he uses for JADE. Seems to me that it'll be the state of the art in flexibility, depth and width, the three most important attributes, as long as you're really doing the classical level-up challenge routine. Granted that it's not finished yet, but that's just because the guy does it as hobby. And from what we're seeing in the marketplace, it's clear that, as the last generation of rogue-likes washed the tables with the then-current commercial games (Biskup's ADOM as one of the final forms), the next generation will trample over the current crop of frankly not very impressive titles.
Vaxalon is of course right, but that's a matter of form. Can't help it if you're doing a computer game. While most here probably prefer a movie to a ballet, the latter can't be made with the former's tools. And some will prefer the latter to the former...
Maxuser (nice to meet you, Maxuser): in case you missed it, Forge is a forum for game design, and thus there's not much emphasis on technical stuff. If, however, you want to talk about the rules of your game, there's all kinds of things we can show you, if I may presume!
On 1/12/2005 at 11:34pm, maxuser wrote:
Those pesky rules
I'm glad I found a group of enthusiasts who actually enjoy writing out the rules for RPGs, even if it's just pen & paper. Someone has to write it down and assess the logic before the next guy can code it anyway.
I'm an animator developing a digitally animated series of movies and want to make an RPG to go along with each movie. This will take a long time, and some $, but I'm off to a good start. The main characters are all either human or spirit creatures such as angels and demons who are invisible to most of the humans. The stories will all take place within a real historical context with real historical characters that interact with the player-character. I need a reliable combat system and thought naturally of just adapting AD&D since that's the proven pony and pillar of the industry.
P.S. Thanks Vaxalon for the tips about those software products. I'll check them out. And thanks Eero - I'll check out JADE to see what I can make of it.
On 1/13/2005 at 12:25am, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
Re: Those pesky rules
maxuser wrote:
I'm an animator developing a digitally animated series of movies and want to make an RPG to go along with each movie. This will take a long time, and some $, but I'm off to a good start. The main characters are all either human or spirit creatures such as angels and demons who are invisible to most of the humans. The stories will all take place within a real historical context with real historical characters that interact with the player-character. I need a reliable combat system and thought naturally of just adapting AD&D since that's the proven pony and pillar of the industry.
Ah, if you're doing a story-focused game, you should consider this: while a great majority of CRPGs are based on the old '80s model of Ultima and friends, is this really what your game needs? Such a game has one major focus, and that's the strategy of character development, complimented by tactical battle and some plotting to tie it all together. Practically 95% of all CRPGs conform to this model of game, including such divergent titles as Ultima, Might and Magic, Final Fantasy, Magic Candle, SSI gold box games, Dungeon Master, Eye of Beholder, Ultima Underworld, Lands of Lore, Betrayal at Krondor... in a word, nearly all classics of the genre you care to name. Even the massive multiplayer games are really close to the model.
However, understand this: regardless of any phantasms held by even the big names of the industry, these are not the end-all of CRPG. The modern generation of games, titles like Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, Fallout, Morrowind and such try their utmost to break out of the mold, but it takes enormous effort and will: the games invest gigantic amount of resources in divergent story lines, NPC dialogue and such, only to become a (hopefully) balanced quasiform, with some plot, some resource management. Usually the resource management will still win out.
My point here is that you could consider something a little different, if it's plot you're after. Any game where gathering XP is the main player endeavour will fail at the starting posts, I feel. If your eyes are set on a conventional mainstream game with 3D graphics and a good recognition factor, you might want to sacrifice your interactive goals, though. Anyway, that's enough of prologue, let me name a game...
King of Dragon Pass is something you should probably check out. It's an unique CRPG with an innovative engine that handles story and interaction very well (in the expense of complex resource management, tactical battles and linear growth, though). What's best, it's almost trivial to program, and would mesh incredibly well with the will and the skill to animate the vignettes (you'll understand by playing the game): the game uses drawn picture in a masterful way, but the same principle would work for animation as well. A mind-expanding experience could be actually delivered with a real-time application, like Dragon's Lair (hmm... I'll have to design this one myself, it's good enough...).
In any case, that's another suggestion, if you don't really need character classes and experience points for your game. As an aside, King of Dragon Pass is a perfect example of how game design is really paramount compared to coding (JADE is another example of that, but on a different level): the game gains none of it's structure from the application, and all from it's rules and content.
On 1/13/2005 at 2:57pm, maxuser wrote:
Thinking of something different
I was thinking along the lines of providing the player with a reliable and stable combat and XP system with levelups - but also with a multi-threaded plot that allows the player to select one from a number of different members of his CG family. Since the player interacts with real historical characters and learns of real historical events, it naturally follows that the player will be impacted by these events in different ways, depending, for instance upon the political affiliation of the family, or even where they live. This in turn impacts the type of quest offered at any one time, and the way in which certain NPCs will act toward the player. Players will also have to age at a normal rate - they'll learn more and gain lots of levels in their 20s and 30s, slow down in their 40s and probably have to plan retirement so a son or daughter can take over. In other words, players past a certain age will begin to lose levels.
On 1/13/2005 at 3:24pm, daMoose_Neo wrote:
RE: Re: Those pesky rules
maxuser wrote: I'm glad I found a group of enthusiasts who actually enjoy writing out the rules for RPGs, even if it's just pen & paper. Someone has to write it down and assess the logic before the next guy can code it anyway
If I might say, of what you're going to find here, few if any have an intention of putting this to a computer program. Nearly all of the titles are exclusively table top.
Besides, another thing to consider is what the Computer can do that a person cannot. I'm currently in the middle of such a quagmire with my own company. We're developing a pokemon-like property, with myself writing up a loose table top system and one of my partners coding the MMO computer engine behind it. What we can both accomplish varies drastically- I need (or would rather like) to keep the rolls and stats simple while my partner can factor in all sorts of unwieldly variables. I can arrange so its easy to shift focus and story at the drop of a hat while he has to deal with working out a complex scripting language to come close to dealing with story and plot elements.
Large area of difference comes into play with the stats, what you could consider a very basic concept for a system. Mike, my partner, is looking at quite a number of stats, including some hidden stats and other hidden variables. The PnP version couldn't reasonably account for these and still remain fun. We're working out a compromise so the two appear to function similarly while exploiting the best both offer.
Suggestion? Write (or get someone else to) your own system made specifically to take advantage of the PC's capabilities and limitations, not trying to incorperate die-based solutions. What is written for the table top has its own reasons for being that the PC can avoid. Likewise, there are things capable on a PC a table top player would never dream of incorperating.
On 1/14/2005 at 5:01am, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Advice on the best "off-the-shelf" RPG creator
Vaxalon wrote: Definitely HumanBrain version 1.0, with the addons Imagination 6.1 and Diligence 2.2. You'll probably find the whole system works more efficiently if you make sure to run ActualPlay on a regular basis.
In response to this, Maxuser wrote: P.S. Thanks Vaxalon for the tips about those software products. I'll check them out.
Vaxalon was actually being a bit facetious. Those aren't real software products, I think--he's saying that the best way to run a role playing game is to have a real person with lots of imagination and a healthy dose of diligence make all the in-game decisions, rather than relying on a computer.
There's a certain degree to which a lot of the designers here think of computer and console based games as something of a stepchild of role playing games--the first such games seemed to come on the tail of the success of D&D and other first generation role playing games, almost as a "how to role play by yourself when you can't get a real game going" sort of thing. Even though CRPGs probably outstrip RPGs in the market significantly, RPG players generally have trouble believing that a computer or console could ever replace a real person at the helm of the game.
But we have this debate periodically. We still don't agree as to whether CRPGs are "real" role playing games, but the jury is still out on that.
--M. J. Young
On 1/15/2005 at 10:31am, HereticalFaction wrote:
RE: Re: Those pesky rules
daMoose_Neo wrote: I need (or would rather like) to keep the rolls and stats simple while my partner can factor in all sorts of unwieldly variables.
Suggestion? Write (or get someone else to) your own system made specifically to take advantage of the PC's capabilities and limitations, not trying to incorperate die-based solutions. What is written for the table top has its own reasons for being that the PC can avoid. Likewise, there are things capable on a PC a table top player would never dream of incorperating.
I am suspicious of the "creeping variablism" that comes when you design a system solely with a computer platform in mind... Maybe it is just inadequate playtesting at fault, but I have found that when a CRPG is NOT based on a thoroughly established pnp algorithm the multitude of factors are rarely well balanced. Usually, this leads to a clear "optimal" strategy, and the very rigidity of a CRPG means that there is less gratification in playing sub-optimal strategies (Baldur's Gate is never spurred to new creative heights in it's storytelling by your retarded choices)*.
Though I realise that it does not really qualify as an RPG, I would point to superpower as a prime example of this failure: Giant database of initial values, 100-or-so constants, +20,000 possible starting conditions, and at least one (albeit counterintuitive) strategy which consistantly conquers the world starting from 100 of 130 countries.
The best thing that computer capabillity gives you is the capacity to implement a well-established algorithm (such as D&D individual combat), only apply it to say, opposing armies of 10,000 NPCs while retaining the granular detail. (and, of course, giving it all nifty animations)
* Yes, I realise that my example here is a game which DOES implement an established pnp ruleset.
On 1/16/2005 at 3:23am, Argetlamh wrote:
RE: Advice on the best "off-the-shelf" RPG creator
Might I suggest that you check out Geneforge 1 and 2, from Spiderweb Software? You can download shareware versions of both games for free. I recommend these games because they seem to address some of the story-related problems you mention.