Yeah, so my game doesn't have a name yet. That will probably be the very last thing I do. This is the same game as the one described in my Mechanics/Setting Question thread down the page aways.

I am envisioning a debt-based magic system involving Great Beings, call them gods or demons or what-have-you. The basic notion is this: When a character first starts using magic, they get a single thing they can do, and a Level 1 skill named after the Being they petition for their magic.
Each time they perform one of the magic feats they know, they earn a checkmark next to the skill. When they have as many checkmarks as the current level of the skill, they temporarily stop being able to perform magic. Soon, though, they are approached in some manner by the Great Being (an avatar, or a dream, or something like that), and are informed of what they have to do to fulfill their Debt. Once they have performed their duty, their skill goes up a level, all checkmarks are cleared, and they have access to new magical abilities.
These Debts usually start off small- the first one is always a token gesture, with no real consequences. But the higher the Acolytes level, the more demanding they become, until eventually the Acolyte is spending most of their lives in direct service to the Great Being. Here's where it gets interesting, though;
1.) The Great Beings are almost all malignant. What they want you to do will often offend your sense of morals. Quite often, it will be dangerous.
2.) The Great Beings all hate each other. What they want you to do will often involve wreaking havoc on each other's Acolytes in one way or another. You may never know all the consequences of what a Great Being demands you to do.
3.) If you don't fullfill your Debt, your life is forfeit. The Great Beings will be forgiving if you are percieved as working towards fulfilling your debt. The Great Beings may even let you have your next level of magic before you accomplish it, thereby letting you work up a new Debt that much faster. There's nothing a Great Beings loves to see more than an Acolyte using magic in order to fulfill a Debt.
4.) Once you reach a certain high level in a magic Skill, and fill all your checkmarks, the Great Beings send some horrible avatar of themselves to 'challenge' you. The few Acolytes who know of this assume it is some sort of test, but in fact, this is how the Great Beings feed; they cultivate magical energies in people, then consume them when they are ripe. Nearly all Avatars are killed at this point, but the ones that aren't become Warlocks, who are free of the bonds of the Great Beings, and can in fact bind Acolytes to themselves, giving magic and demanding favors much as the Great Beings do.
5.) The Great Beings hate Warlocks even more than they hate each other.
6.) The Great Beings can do nothing in this world, except grant humans powers, demand payment, and punish those who are neglecting their Debts.
Now, this set-up is important, because in many ways, it will be the backbone of the setting. Crimes occur, cults are started, wars are fought, because of what Great Beings demand their Acolytes to do.
Now, my questions about this system are the following:
A) Do you like it? Can you envision this leading to a work of myterious power struggles and pointless violence, and does it seem like the kind of world in which you would like to play? Keep in mind this is going to be viceral horror- playing very much off the fear of agonizing death and violence.
B) One point of the set up is to confine high-powered Acolytes and Warlocks as antagonists. If any PC's find themselves with magic (most likely because an Acolyte taught them about it to pay off their own Debt), they are struggling to use it as little as possible. Of course, the Great Beings are using other Acolyte's Debts to force the PCs into positions where they need to use their magic to survive. Do you think this system will accomplish this?
C) Is this somewhat original? Am I unintentially ripping off some other game out there?

A player with an eye toward character advancement will be using their magic as much as possible, in order to boost their scores.

Alternately, they may see out tasks because the GM will be using these tasks to get them involved in the plot. So being tasked is actually a guarantee of greater prominence in the story.

Either way, I see this system strongly supporting the idea that you should go out and accumulate debt as quickly as you possibly can. Which would be fine, except that you've stated that your intent is the exact opposite.

Either way, I see this system strongly supporting the idea that you should go out and accumulate debt as quickly as you possibly can. Which would be fine, except that you've stated that your intent is the exact opposite.

I love it; Its really creative and cool. It'll set up great conflict and plot creation, anything that enhances characters with a bit of sacrifice and lot of work is great for plot. When I first started reading I was like "Blah." But by the end you got me. Nice job.
Its original enough. Good job dood.

Uccisore wrote: Nearly all Avatars are killed at this point, but the ones that aren't become Warlocks, who are free of the bonds of the Great Beings, and can in fact bind Acolytes to themselves, giving magic and demanding favors much as the Great Beings do.

I gather you meant to say "Nearly all Acolytes" in this one, as otherwise it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever towards that "feeding" bit. Anyways, on with some general commentary:

I gather you meant to say "Nearly all Acolytes" in this one

I personally don't like how quickly the magic advances.

or be split up more and more to perform their tasks. Perhaps while you run a debt based system, make the advancement much slower, IE advancing at 5x your skill.

Second, the nature of the Great Beings means that players will be fighting each other quite a bit at higher powers, especially if they worship different Great Beings.

This could be even more interesting if the players could eventually actually become Great Beings, or at least powerful enough to finally face down the ones hunting them. ;)

Uccisore wrote: As far as demons consuming vitality, that was actually my original idea. The problem I had with it was this: Either the thing the demons ask for can be improved with character development, or it can't. If it can, all I'm doing is essentially putting an 'XP cost' on increasing in magic. If it can't, then the distance a character or NPC can progress in magic is defined for them when the character is made. The idea of tasks avoids this, and I also like the idea of the Beings needing those tasks to act in the world; they aren't just arbitrary acts.

Another possible mechanic: Players purchase 'fuel' for thier powers by performing sacrifices for their patron. The higher thier level of skill in magic, the greater the amount of fuel that is required. The 'fuel' is measured in ranks, but once they've brought 'fuel' of a certain rank, lower ranking stuff is no use to them. Let me try to give an example.

Bob, whose patron is the Thunder Mother, knows that he can generate 1 fuel by lighting a candle in a window. Through training / dreams / whatever he finds he can generate 5 fuel by placing a candle between two mirrors daubed with runes. If Bob does this, then yes he can earn more fuel but the first method no longer works for him. This then encourages him to use method 2 more, and when he learns of method 3 (something that pushes his boundaries a little more) he'll be more tempted to use it.

This system wouldn't necissary go hand in hand with automatically learning more powerfull spells / abilities, but if those abilities has rapidly increasing costs, then the temptation will be to make use of the more potent fuel generating methods.

Just an idea to get the player thinking about selling his soul without the world shattering powers :)

The 'fuel' is measured in ranks, but once they've brought 'fuel' of a certain rank, lower ranking stuff is no use to them. Let me try to give an example.

Perhaps even make the magic subtly addictive, like a drug. Sure, it's not too bad when you begin. You could ignore that craving easily.

I think you've got an excellent mechanic here, and one that promotes a powerful kind of indirect player-GM collaboration. If you've got players who like seeing their players get into trouble, you could rapidly develop some powerful plot elements together instead of having (as GM) to throw them all into the ring yourself.

I don't think the Vitality-drain and tasking mechanics are incompatible. Maybe the main engine of magic would be serious vitality drain--enough to make players reluctant to use it, but still giving them an ethical option to use it when they had to. Then, when the PC is coughing up blood in a seedy dive, wishing she'd never heard of magic, the Great Being pops up and dangles the chance to get a bit of permanent Vitality back... in return for, oh, this little favor.

If it's something like "wipe out some other cultists," the PC will presumably accept it, and breathe a little easier. Then the Great Being can trade more magic for health again--making the PC's permanent condition worse each time, even as she's comforted by the idea that she'll be able to get healthy eventually, until one day it's the favor that means her life or death... which is usually along the lines of "kill your best friend."

I think this would promote the kind of Mafia don / drug dealer stance that seems to make the Great Beings really interesting (and if you ignore a favor, Sammy the Avatar fits you for concrete shoes). It might also help reduce the side quests to a more manageable number--you wouldn't necessarily have to do a magic-debt quest every other time.

The other thing, of course, is that as her total maximum Vitality steadily decreases, the PC has to be much more careful with her magic, because the potential to do high qualities or quantities of it just isn't there--she doesn't have the Vitality to pay for it. As she gains more skill, she's forced to become more subtle with what she does, which is a neat dynamic.

Then, when the PC is coughing up blood in a seedy dive, wishing she'd never heard of magic, the Great Being pops up and dangles the chance to get a bit of permanent Vitality back... in return for, oh, this little favor.

Are all the player choices equally fun, here?

It just sounds like you've put a lot more thought into the slow spiralling descent into magic-addiction than you have to people who decide not to follow up on it.

If you're secretly thinking "The game will work out so that players want to not use the magic, but of course they'll end up using it anyway" then this isn't an arena for player choice, and you should just say tell them they're going to do it, up front. It's the hooded guy in a tavern offering you a job guarding a caravan. You know they're going to take it, because that's where the game is, and they want to play, so why be coy?

Do you get what I'm saying?

One thing you can do to help slow the pace of advancement is to limit the number of checks a player can get over time. For example, you could limit it to one per scene, or something like that. It doesn't matter how much they use the magic in a single scene, they'll only get one check.

It just sounds like you've put a lot more thought into the slow spiralling descent into magic-addiction than you have to people who decide not to follow up on it.

Do you get what I'm saying?

One thing you can do to help slow the pace of advancement is to limit the number of checks a player can get over time. For example, you could limit it to one per scene, or something like that. It doesn't matter how much they use the magic in a single scene, they'll only get one check.

Well then, I recommend that you make a system that represents "Not Going Bad" as more than just the absence of going bad. That way, players have a choice between two things they can actively do with the rules, as opposed to one thing they can either do, or not.

Well then, I recommend that you make a system that represents "Not Going Bad" as more than just the absence of going bad.

Uccisore wrote: Now, can they refuse the favor and choose to be sick forever, or is that when Sammy the Avatar shows up?

The idea that the PC's are being offered something for doing the favor gives me the impression that it's optional.

I was thinking that if they refuse the favor, they have to swear off magic forever or die--like a junkie's one last chance to turn around, except they never really get any healthier.

I've been working on a similar magic system for a long time, myself. In end the end, it morphed into this, but I had a lot of the same contractual breaking elements that you had, as well.

I think that an important trick is you need to let player characters recover from the screw in some way, unless it is death. Yes, the Great Power has them by the short and curlies, but there are still things that can be done, tricks that can be pulled, ways to weasel around things. These have a terrible cost (really, the power has a cost, it is just only now being paid) and of course Things Will Never Be The Same but I do think it is more appealing than "you're dead" or "you're character is totally unplayably weakened now, hahah."

Of course, it all depends what you see the character life cycle as. If you're going for something like CoC, this might be meaningless.

yrs--
--Ben

Firstly, I like this a lot - I particularly like the way that the system fits in with the overall premise for the game.

However, I'm not sure about the option for characters to be "tricked" into learning magic. The overall set-up strikes me as being very much on the level of a pact - and as such, there has to be a level of "informed choice" in the character's decision to learn their magic. Even if they aren't fully aware of the consequences of their choice, they should be aware that they are gaining something, and giving something away in return.

One way of dealing with this is at chargen - for example, in Sorcerer the characters all start with their powers, and one of the most interesting parts of chargen (IMHO) is deciding why they chose to summon demons.

However, I get the impression from this that you are looking for something different:

One thing I need to clear up a bit. Over all, the players are going to be non-magical or barely-magical people combating Acolytes and Warlocks, and the horrible things the Great Beings make them do.

I think that an important trick is you need to let player characters recover from the screw in some way, unless it is death. Yes, the Great Power has them by the short and curlies, but there are still things that can be done, tricks that can be pulled, ways to weasel around things.

Even if they aren't fully aware of the consequences of their choice, they should be aware that they are gaining something, and giving something away in return.

In other words, you can offer the players one of two paths, and be up front about it: "You can refuse the offer of magic, fight a long and bitter struggle with a small hope of success, but you get to keep your soul intact. Or you can can take the power, crush you enemies... and face the consequences later."

Uccisore, I think the "screwing with your life" mechanic you proposed is great. The more you use magic, the more spiritually tied to the GB you become... and just when you think you're out, they pull you back in!

The "gun in a knife fight" analogy is good too. Reminds me of my favorite Sean Connery line in The Untouchables.