I've had this thing klunking around in my head for a couple of years now.

A game of modern magicians- seers- who by nature of their awareness of magic are able to work miracles through it. Based on some of my reading on the social role of the shaman in a community as one who is neither wholly part of the mundane world nor of the spiritual otherworld. Someone who intercedes for people in spiritual matters, but who also intercedes in mundane situations for supernatural agencies. An occult middle-man, caught in the middle of all things. Focus too much on the mundane, and loose the magic- no more Sight, and soon you forget what wonder is. Focus too much on the magic, and you loose the mundane- nothing keeps you anchored in the world, and you just Fade away.

I’ve been butting my head against the mechanics for ages, and trying to boil the premise down to its essentials so I could reinforce it mechanically to encourage a certain kind of play.

Of late, I was somewhat inspired by the dead simple designs behind several little gems I have turned up (Zak Arntson’s Deplorable and D. Vincent Baker’s Hungry, Desperate, and Alone), and by Ron’s most excellent Trollbabe I felt like I needed to just jettison all the old junk I was trying to work into the thing, and focus on what really matters to the thing- the conflict between the practical and the wondrous, and the essential importance of both. Rather than try and shoehorn these concepts into a generic system idea, I’m going to start with these ideas and build a system from them.

So, at the core of characters in Fade there are two core scores from which everything else is derived, representing the character’s Mundane nature and his Magical nature. These can fluctuate through play, and such changes affect the small nest of derived scores below it. Right now, I’m calling them Identity and Mystery, and at chargen 11 points are divided between them (with neither being lower than 3)

For task resolution, I’m thinking you roll under the appropriate score on a d10, and the value you roll is your Success. Roll over, and the difference in the score and the roll is the Failure. These are used in several ways, but more on this in another thread, but in addition to determining successes and failures, these also determine how much Trouble you generate with your magic, how much you deal with using mundane means, and when your scores shift, one dropping and the other rising. Trouble is what happens when you use magic too often or too well, and it complicates you life and the lives around you. Dealing with your own trouble or laying it on some hapless victim is the only difference in “white” and “back” magic.

Beneath each score, you have a number of traits equal to the score. There are three types of Trait per Score, and each one has a slightly different mechanical twist, scope, and possible uses. Generally though, when you have a Trait relevant to the current conflict, you get a raise to the relevant score. Here are the traits, and the basics on how they work:

Identity
Experience: A skill, aptitude, or talent representing the ability to do something. Generally broad enough to allow you to get a job based on your Experience. Example might include Handyman, Surgeon, Made Man, Army Brat, Went to College, or Kegmiester. Anything you want, if you could possible peruse some kind of life based on it. Anytime your Experience is relevant to a conflict, add 1 to your Identity. This bonus stacks with any other kind of Trait raises. An Experience can be used as often as it is applicable.

Conviction: a strong belief, emotion, or code which gives you strength and resolve in some situations. A Conviction can stack with other Traits, but is not as broadly applicable as Experience traits- you can only use your Conviction when the outcome of a conflict is really significant to your Conviction. When you act out of conviction, add 2 to your Identity score. A Conviction can be used this way at most once per session.

Relationship: an emotional tie to another person. It need not be positive, but must be significant to your character and your sense of who you are. The relationship must serve to define you in some way to be strong enough to grant a bonus. When your actions are strongly motivated by the Relationship, and the outcome of the conflict will strongly affect it, add 3 to your identity. A Relationship can be used this way at most once per story.

Mystery
Art: the Trait represents a focused area of personal magic- a signature style or miracle. This can be anything from telekinesis to the animation of living plants to manifesting people’s memories as physical constructs. Be creative. An Art is limited in scope, however. Arts can’t be used on anything you can’t clearly and directly sense. They can affect only a small number of individuals at a time (up to your Mystery score), or an area no larger than a modest living room. Also, you must concentrate to maintain any primary effects of the Art, taking a -2 penalty to your Scores while doing so. Secondary affects of your Art remain and are generally permanent- conjuring fire will result in burns and damage, even after the magical flames have vanished. An Art grants a +3 bonus to Mystery, and can be used as often as desired, though each Blackjack you roll (exactly equal to your score, with all modifiers) gives you a point of Trouble, as do any failures greater than 3 or any successes greater than 8.

Arcana: this trait represents an externalized manifestations of the Mystery- a magical ally, a place of power, a mystical artifact, or something similar. Arcana have the advantage of being able to modify Identity rolls with their bonus in addition to Mystery rolls. Further, Arcana can operate independently of you, acting beyond your senses and sometimes on their own initiative (as often happens when you’re In Trouble). Arcana can affect up to three times your Mystery in individuals, or an area the size of a nice house. They can operate beyond your senses, and grant a +5 bonus to either Mystery or to Identity (if relevant). Any Blackjack gives you 3 Trouble however, and any failure greater than 2 or success greater than 6 gives you a point of Trouble.

Patron: The ultimate power of a seer is the ability to call upon one or more of the awesome powers of the Otherworld- gods, demons, Old Ones, great spirits, faerie lords, or stranger things still. The Mystery encompasses all possibilities, and the beings like Patrons are awesome things. A Patron can grant a +10 bonus to Mystery if invoked, but doing so immediately gives the shaman Trouble equal to the value of the success. In addition, the shaman immediately gets into Trouble, as the Patron requires some service of the Shaman in payment for its boon.

Generally, when Trouble exceeds a character’s Identity, he’s In Trouble. The GM knocks his Trouble total down to zero, and using a system I’ll detail later on, builds a Crisis. A related rule would allow anyone sitting around the table to anney up their own Trouble total and add it to the first, making themselves part of the Crisis, and getting some input on how it unfolds. The Crisis sets up the mechanics under a role-playing situation, and a Crisis always threatens an Identity trait. If successfully resolved, the player gets to do some character redefinition (shift a score point from Mystery to Identity, change a Conviction or Relationship, broaden an Experience etc.). Failure means the character looses that Trait, and a point of Identity shift to Mystery, and he gains a new Mystery trait. Other characters can assist in dealing with the Crisis, but all must be cautious with using magic to resolve it- this can generate more Trouble which can further complicate things.

I’m still working out some core details- I’m going for a conflict resolution thing, with a middle ground breadth of detail covered in a single roll. Violence is just another conflict, which could resolve in the same two or three rolls as any other moderately complex situation.

I need to find a counterbalance to the trouble-spiral: magic generates trouble, which reduces Identity, which makes it harder to get rid of Trouble etc. One possibility is to add an opposed score- one which threatens Mystery and requires Magic to resolve.

Nuts and bolts forthcoming.

Any thoughts on this very early concept sketch?

-Ben

I think I'm in a similar boat, trying to balance out a risk vs. reward system for a friend's project.

The concept of the Identity drain may be an important element in setting the tone of the game you want. Generally, a mechanic that enforces degeneration of a character is an element of a horror-themed game as opposed to an adventure game.

Take a look at your game world. Is horror going to be an element of nearly all the stories you would tell there? Are there many old masters of the shamanistic practices around? Or do they generally burn out young or stay low key to live past 40?

If you find that degeneration is important for establishing the tone, the danger of the power used and the life expectancy of a player character, then you need that downward spiral.

Most of the rest of what you've explained seems well thought out to me, at least at first blush. I like the inclusion of passions and relationships to resolution as well.

Also, think about how often you expect a die roll wll come up in a session. That will certainly influence the weight you attach to each roll. Since your traits are somewhat "generic" then you're probably shooting for a narrative game rather than a simulation, but I suppose the nuts and bolts will detail that out.

I'm going for something sort of gamey and sort of narritivy here... perhaps some more on my basic thematics:


What I'm going for is something like the conflict between the joy of the mundane and the wonder of the magical... like the show Bewitched.

Both the magical and the mundane are valuable- mechanically and thematically- and the idea isn't to enforce a definite degeneration of Identity, but rather to make this something of a negative consequence. The idea I want is that players will have to balance the two sides of their characters or they will loose the character- become too mundane, and you loose the mystery and forget the wonder of the magical world. Become too magical, and you loose all connection with the mundane and you Fade away.

At either end of the spectrum, the result is the same- loss of character.

I need some system by which trouble can adversely affect either Identity or Magic... the idea is that the trait that is threatened is the one you need to resolve the Trouble- success gives you the option of changing some things, but doesn't require it. Failure means you must change and your focus shifts from one aspect to another.

This shift isn't bad or good- though it seem either way depending on what evolves out of play. Ideally, it will be dramatic and interesting.

Hmmmm...

How about this- using magic to resolve mundane conflicts results in Trouble, and using mundane things to deal with magic results in trouble. Cross-score actions are more effective but cause trouble.

When an event happens that kicks off a Crisis, it will threaten either Identity or Mystery, and the resolution of the Crisis will determine how the scores are shifted (if at all).

Now... how to draw the line between the two realms of conflict?

Also, this will require some changes to the bonus and trouble accumulation for either score's traits.

-B

Some spontaneous thoughts:

1) is "Medium" rather than "Seer" a better term for who the characters are? That was the first word that popped into my mind when you began describing them as a bridge between the magical and the mundane.

2) For resolution, consider a two die system like Shadows of Yesterday. 1 Die roll over/under systems tend to have a fairly high whiff factor to them. Troll Babe turns this whiff factor into a desireable feature with the way it divvies up narration rights. You will want something that accomplishes that, or else use a less whiff prone die mechanic I think.

3) Related to #2 and the idea of turning the Whiff into a feature, perhaps you can tie Trouble into the rerolls. You try a mundane test, you roll Identity, you fail. You can get a reroll on Mystery (using magic for a second chance at success) as many times as you want until you succeed...but each reroll gives you Trouble vs. your Identity (and vice-versa). Trouble could have a number of features in the game, but one could be for the GM to force rerolls when you'd rather not. For instance, the next time your involved in a magical activity, the Trouble vs. Identity you earned from your earlier activity now comes back to haunt you...perhaps in the form of the suspicious neighbor lady who comes over for a spot of tea just as some supernatural manifestation occurs.

4) If the scores are linked...what do you envision being the game effect (mechanically and imaginatively within the SIS) of losing Identity as Mystery increases or losing Mystery as Identity increases. There are some obvious interpretations possible, but perhaps you've some thoughts beyond the obvious ones.

Valamir wrote: Some spontaneous thoughts:

1) is "Medium" rather than "Seer" a better term for who the characters are? That was the first word that popped into my mind when you began describing them as a bridge between the magical and the mundane.

2) For resolution, consider a two die system like Shadows of Yesterday. 1 Die roll over/under systems tend to have a fairly high whiff factor to them. Troll Babe turns this whiff factor into a desireable feature with the way it divvies up narration rights. You will want something that accomplishes that, or else use a less whiff prone die mechanic I think.

3) Related to #2 and the idea of turning the Whiff into a feature, perhaps you can tie Trouble into the rerolls. You try a mundane test, you roll Identity, you fail. You can get a reroll on Mystery (using magic for a second chance at success) as many times as you want until you succeed...but each reroll gives you Trouble vs. your Identity (and vice-versa). Trouble could have a number of features in the game, but one could be for the GM to force rerolls when you'd rather not. For instance, the next time your involved in a magical activity, the Trouble vs. Identity you earned from your earlier activity now comes back to haunt you...perhaps in the form of the suspicious neighbor lady who comes over for a spot of tea just as some supernatural manifestation occurs.

4) If the scores are linked...what do you envision being the game effect (mechanically and imaginatively within the SIS) of losing Identity as Mystery increases or losing Mystery as Identity increases. There are some obvious interpretations possible, but perhaps you've some thoughts beyond the obvious ones.

I'm struggling with the resolution system right now, and on how I want Trouble to work, and how a Crisis arises.

OK, basically I have a d10 based roll-under-but-high blackjack style mechanic, and a basic score range of between 1 and 10. Hard tasks (or tasks you are unsuited for, based on character concept and background) give a penality to this, while advantages give a bonus to this. All modifers to a given situation are figured in on the front-end, and then the the results are extrapolated based on the outcome of the roll.

The simplest example might be violence- say your Identity is 3, you have a handgun for +2, the other guy is armed only with a knife for +1, you have the "Ex-Cop" experience trait for +1, and you are defending your wife from an attacker, adding +3 for the relationship you have with her. Total threshold of 10, and so the odds are so stacked in your favor anything you roll is going to be a success. Roll a 10 and you get a Blackjack success (which would be even better). You roll a 5.

The other guy has an Identity of 5, he has a knife +1, is attacking your unarmed wife +1, and has the experience of "Slasher-killer" for an additional +1. His total is 8, and he rolls a 4.

Now what the hell do I do with these nice numbers?

I can generate a degree of success or failure with this system, or I can generate a "yes/no" success/fail. It seems a shame to waste the numbers, but for the purposes of naration and author stance determination, it doesn't seem all that significant.

I'd like somethig tidy, like Ron's very clean scene/conflict structure as seen in Trollbabe, but I don't want to rip that off.

Should NPC's have PC-style scores? Or should they be represented as modifiers to PC score rolls? I'm inclined to favor this secondary option for almost all non-player characters. Give them a single number (which could modify PC rolls), and some situational bonuses or penalties to this check. Simple conflicts would be resolved in a single roll, modified by the NPC's numbers. Dramatic conflicts would be resolved in a series of rolls, modified in stages by the NPC's rolls, and by changing circumstances.

You have an Identity of 4, and "Ex-Cop" trait for +1, and a "Sense of Justice" conviction for +2. You are chasing a man you're convinced is a killer who escaped justice from the scene of a recent murder. The killer has a score of 4, and the traits Slasher, Charming Devil, Flee the Scene, and a conviction that he is Superior to Women. In any conflict which is based on his Traits, his full value of 4 acts as a penalty to PC score rolls. For all other actions, half (or less) is the penality- in sense, this refelcts the difficulty inherent in the situation the NPC represents. As in Trollbabe, only the players roll dice.

You are trying to chase this guy, so your target number is 7 minus his value of 4 (running away from the cops being pretty central to his masic mojo), for a target of 3. Long odds. You roll a 6, for a 3 point failure. (what to do with this failure number? Don't know yet)

Crap- he's going to get away...but...you are more than just an Ex-Cop. You have a Mystery score of 7, and you call upon one of your Arcana- a spectral wolfhound that can smell the stench of evil. This grants a +4 bonus to your Mystery score (using magic in the mundane world is more potent, but the reroll will give you 1 point of Trouble). The killer knows nothing of magic and the Mystery, and only half his Value is subtracted from your score. Your total is now 9, and you roll a success of 6 (and here, what do I do with this rolled value for a success? Perhaps using it to triger a Crisis?). Following the spectral hound, you race through the night to head off the killer as he exits an alleyway.

Who describes success? Failure? Complications on either? And what to do with the value of a success or a failure?

Hmmmm...

If the rolled success is a blackjack OR is also less than the other score's raw value, the player describes the success.

If the rolled success is greater than the other score, then the GM describes the success.

If the rolled failure is less than the other score's raw value, then the player describes the success.

If the rolled failure is greater than the other score's raw value, then the GM describes the success.

For character with fairly well ballanced scores, the player will describe successes more often, but for characters with unballanced scores, the player will describe failures more often.

Perhaps a bit overcomplicated- needs further thought.

Trouble can influence this perhaps- Trouble subtract from the other score on a success, and add to the value of a failure, making it less likely the player gets to describe a success or a failure...

A Crisis then isn't a bad thing, as it lets a player get rid of Trouble and gain back some narrative control...

Hmmm....

Sorry about the extra riffing, but I'm still cooking this thing down.

-Ben

Bailywolf wrote: I can generate a degree of success or failure with this system, or I can generate a "yes/no" success/fail. It seems a shame to waste the numbers, but for the purposes of naration and author stance determination, it doesn't seem all that significant.

Should NPC's have PC-style scores? Or should they be represented as modifiers to PC score rolls? I'm inclined to favor this secondary option for almost all non-player characters. Give them a single number (which could modify PC rolls), and some situational bonuses or penalties to this check.

You roll a 6, for a 3 point failure. (what to do with this failure number? Don't know yet)

Trouble can influence this perhaps- Trouble subtract from the other score on a success, and add to the value of a failure, making it less likely the player gets to describe a success or a failure...

A Crisis then isn't a bad thing, as it lets a player get rid of Trouble and gain back some narrative control...

Spooky Fanboy wrote:

To be honest, other than making a generic "chart of haplessness" for the players, I don't think it's all that important. OTOH, the amount of failure/success could be rolled over onto the next roll involving one of the relevant Traits as long as there's some narrative continuity, like in Sorcerer.

Maybe at the end of a session or a story wrap-up, you roll a die for each side (Identity and Mystery)? For example, you add the highest margin of failure rolled during the story as a penalty to each roll.

Both fail: GM chooses which one loses a point to the other.

Identity/Mystery succeeds: The winner gets the point added, the loser drops a point.

Both succeed: Stasis, or player chooses the shift.


I'd definitely try to make Trouble something that pushes a character either way: towards magic all the way to losing touch with "the real world", or towards mundanity, so that the character loses the ability to do magic.

I'm guessing from what you've written that it's a magic-in-the-modern-world game, and that magic has the obligatory "shy-bladder syndrome" ("But I can't do it if people are watching!") to explain why most people don't acknowledge it's existence. If so, it makes sense that those who can use magic are walking a tightrope, and that Trouble will try to push them one way or another, just so long as they can't stay between the worlds. But that's just a guess; maybe it would help to know what your theories are on what role magic plays in the world, so that we could better advise you on what mechanics would best represent being caught between two normally parallel forces.

Using a Crisis to equalize the pressure is definitely the way to go. It gets the players involved in making tough decisions, and lets the pressure from one side or the other bleed off.

Bailywolf wrote: Background stuff- it isn't a 'shy magic' setting, but one with a handwavy 'most people can't perceive the magic around them' kind of thing. They can believe in it, they can be subjected to its effects, but they can't really see it, and in the end will usually gloss it over, rationalize it, or forget it.

Should the tipping point be stable... (S)hould there always be an even-odds chance of the tip going in one direction or the other, with a run of bad (or good) luck swinging you further in one direction or the other?

The only hang-up here might be how often Crisis get triggered.

OK!

I've got some refinements and alterations that I want to throw out here.

I've changed the basic resolution die mechanic a bit. Rather than single d10 rolled under (but close) to a score, one or more d6's are rolled, with each falling under the score a success.

I can do more with the grainer number of dice.

You get one die gratis, and can claim more based on situational advantages or on your Traits. Difficult situations or penalties (from injury, for example) subtract dice from your pool. Generally no more than 2 dice can be gained or lost this way.

The scores are assigned from a pool of 7 rather than 11 points, and traits fall below these as previously described.

Each trait relevant to your current action gives you an extra die. Cross-traits give you more dice per trait, but give you Trouble.

The higher your Trouble score, the greater the chance you'll get to narrate your character's failures, while the lower Trouble the greater your chance to narrate your characters successes. When determining who gets to narrate (or as Ron describes, ‘say when’), compare the roll, score, and trouble as follows:

Success and trait greater than Trouble: Player narrates.
Success and trait less than Trouble: GM narrates.
Failure and trait greater than Trouble: Player narrates.
Failure and trait less than Trouble: GM narrates.

Some outcomes are mechanical and somewhat objective- the number of successes and/or failures you roll has mechanical consequences down the line. (In combat, for example, where any net failures are the ‘damage’ you sustain etc.)

An example Character:

John Crowley
Identity 4
Background: Grew up on a farm, but was smart and curious enough to know his little town wasn't the whole world. Well read but under educated- he wasted too much of his youth drinking and fighting, but hung out in the near-by college town and passed himself off as an English Lit major when he wanted to pick up some coed trim. He moved away, worked as a handyman, got married, got divorced, and came back to his hometown when his mother died and left him the old family farm. He's trying to settle in, and find his place in a home grown unfamiliar.
Traits: Well Read (skill), Handyman (skill), Good with the Ladies (skill), Family Farm (relationship)
Mystery 3
Initiation: On his first night back, his mother's ghost manifested for him, and lead him out into the woods behind the farmhouse. She pulled the veil back from his perceptions, and showed him Grandfather Oak- a huge, primal tree with its roots half in the real world and half in the Otherworld. She told him of the duties he inherited from a distant Cherokee ancestor- to watch over the lands that feed Grandfather Oak’s roots. He slept under the tree that night, and awoke changed, with the Mystery in him. The following night, the living scarecrow Old Jack came to him- silent and tireless, waiting for John's orders. Within a week, John could hear the whisper of the plants waking up from the winter.
Traits: Green Magic (Art), Old Jack (Arcana), Grandfather Oak (Patron)


Now, Trouble and Crisis.

When you make a check with cross-dice (those gained from Traits of the other score), compare them to your Trouble total as well as to the trait being rolled. Each die which falls below your Trouble takes a point of Trouble and puts it into a Crisis. A crisis threatens the score being rolled in some way- ideally focused on a specific Trait. A crisis requires a number of successes to resolve equal to the Trouble which caused it plus the opposite Score. Cross-traits can be used to address a Crisis, but you get more Trouble in doing so, of course. While addressing a Crisis, if you roll no successes three times, you fail, and loose the threatened Trait and a point of the threatened Score, shifting a point to the other Score and adding in a new Trait of your own invention. If you ever drop below 1 in either score, you character is removed from play- either he looses the Mystery and forgets about magic, or he looses himself and fades away from the real world completely.

Some examples:

Crowley gets a letter from the country Tax Assessor’s office telling him he has to come up with $10k in back taxes within thirty days, or they’ll foreclose on his farm. Crowley’s player says, “I’d like to try and come up with the money by calling in some debts and favors.” The GM says, “Alright, a failure means you’ll waste a week, Cool?” Crowley doesn’t have any particular Trait related to this, so the player throws a single die, rolling a 5 and a failure. The GM says, do you want to get into Trouble? And the player says, “Sure, why the hell not. I’ll ask the Grandfather Oak where I might get some money quick.” Grandfather Oak is a Patron, and so grants 3 dice for cross-purpose actions. The player rolls them, getting 1, 3, and 6. A success! The first success means he gets what he wants, and the extra success can be rolled over into a subsequent conflict as one-time advantage. Since Crowley has no Trouble right now (the Trouble from using Grandfather Oak will hit after this conflict), the player gets to narrate the success. He says, “I go and sleep under Grandfather Oak for the night, and I dream of the sounds of distant cannon fire and the tang of fear in the back of my throat, I dream of burying three jars filled with silver and gold coins in the woods behind the outhouse, I remember preying that those damned Union jackals wouldn’t find them, and wouldn’t burn the house down looking. In the morning, I go and dig up the coins buried since the Civil War.” The player makes a note “Jars of Gold Coins +1 die” in the Advantages section of his sheet, and notes 3 points of Trouble on it as well. Play moves on.

Later on, after picking up two more points of Trouble, John Crowley is going to meet a lady that he met at the tax assessor’s office in town for drinks, and he runs afoul of a group of drunk frat boys. He’s a tough, fit guy, so he gets his basic die, but doesn’t have any special Trait dealing with kicking ass. The odds are three against one, and so he takes a penalty die, but he isn’t drunk and they are and he gets a bonus die. Crowley’s current Trouble score is 5, which means the GM gets to narrate his successes but the player would get to narrate his failures. On the line is an as kicking for John and likely missing his date. He rolls a 6 on his basic die, and so sighs and whispers to the weeds growing up through the cracks in the pavement (using his Green Magic trait for an extra die). He rolls a 4 and a success, but this also scores a success off Trouble, and triggers a 1 point Crisis. The GM narrates the results “The tiny blades of grass lengthen, snaring the drunks’ feet and making them stumble all the more. You simply back away, and watch them fall all over each other. You arrive at the bar only a few minutes late, but the thrill of the magic is still rushing through your mind, and distracting you. The thrill you felt making the date and seeing the lady is dimmed somewhat.” This is a 1 point Crisis focused on Crowley’s ‘Way with the Ladies” Identity trait. If John doesn’t do well with this girl, he’ll loose that aspect of himself (though he’ll gain something in the Mystery for it). If he fails three checks before accumulating at least three successes, he’ll loose a point of Identity and gain a point of Mystery. The GM indicates he’ll get to make one check per date with the lady, and so this Crisis will likely persist for a while. On the upside though, the player knocks one point off his Trouble score.


Alright, I’m pretty comfortable with this so far… I just need a structure which better formalizes conflicts and scale.


Am I moving in the right direction?

-Ben

Bailywolf wrote: Success and trait greater than Trouble: Player narrates.
Success and trait less than Trouble: GM narrates.
Failure and trait greater than Trouble: Player narrates.
Failure and trait less than Trouble: GM narrates.

Alright, I’m pretty comfortable with this so far… I just need a structure which better formalizes conflicts and scale.


Am I moving in the right direction?

Spooky Fanboy wrote:
To make sure:

1) # of Successes/Failures and score must be higher than Trouble for Players to narrate, or

2) Must have at least one Success/Failure and Trait must be higher than Trouble for Player to narrate.

You have an example of play and an example character. You've kept your goal of simple mechanics. I'd say you're doing good.

Just a thought: With Crisis checks, are you thinking of causing the scale to go up or down depending on how the Trouble comes out? to borrow your example, now that his "Way with the Ladies" Trait is threatened, will the next scene it's getting used in have a higher scale of impact than the first one, making it more dramatic (and catastrophic) if he fails? Certainly adds to the drama to do so.

Spooky Fanboy wrote: Just a thought: With Crisis checks, are you thinking of causing the scale to go up or down depending on how the Trouble comes out? to borrow your example, now that his "Way with the Ladies" Trait is threatened, will the next scene it's getting used in have a higher scale of impact than the first one, making it more dramatic (and catastrophic) if he fails? Certainly adds to the drama to do so.

Bailywolf wrote: I'm not sure how you meant by 'scale of impact' in your last comment though- could you explain a bit more?

Ah, I see!

Most certainly- this will have to be something I work into the guidelines for running Crisis. I like that quite a bit... each failure ups the broader stakes. I'll have to chew on it a bit.

Currently, there isn't really any kind character advancement system... I'm not even sure if I really need one, as character "power" isn't really at issue in the game. Within the limits of describing your own traits, background, and initiation, a player can grab a lot of 'power' right off, and it shouldn't really make much difference. It will just let them get into more Trouble easier.

If a character looses a point in a Score (and thus, one of the traits under that Score) he gains a point in the other score, and gains a new trait there. There is no net loss in terms of the number of scores or the number of score points a character has to play with- right now it is a closed loop.

I was considering offering player the option of changing a score if they resolve a crisis successfully with a value at least equal to the score that they want to change. For example, if John gets into a series of complications which threaten his Identity, and he's down to 2 points (making his Mystery a 5), and he successfully resolves a 5 point Crisis, he can choose to shift a point from Mystery to Identity (and loose a Mystery trait, and gain an Identity trait). These new traits can be the same as the old ones (allowing a character who strays to 'rediscover' what he had lost or forgotten) or they can be new (finding something new to replace something you lost or forgot).

I suppose I'm thinking that if characters remain dynamic (with changing scores and traits) that this will serve the same purpose as a power-scaling advancement system (to keep the character interesting and offer new types of action for the player to explore).

Do you think this will compensate for the lack of a conventional advancement scheme?

-Ben

Bailywolf wrote: If a character looses a point in a Score (and thus, one of the traits under that Score) he gains a point in the other score, and gains a new trait there. There is no net loss in terms of the number of scores or the number of score points a character has to play with- right now it is a closed loop.

This is something I've noodled around with a bit- do I want parity between the traits of the two scores, or something different?

Not entirely sure, and to be honest the art/arcana/patron thing is somethign I've played with since the begining. Mostly because it follows the breakdown in magical scaling I want- arts are personal direct and limited. Arcana are external, self-sustaining, and semi-independent, and a Patron is something entirely external you can call upon- if you dare. I think you can fit just about any kind of magical or supernatural power you can think of into this, and work your particular "flavor" of magic into your Initiation description. Crowley, for example, hears the whispers of green growing things and can speak to them, and expect them to obey. A shaman can do anythign that fits his Initiation description with his gratis die for all Mystery checks- and if he does them with apropriate external advantages, he can gain more dice without even having an Art that fits.

I'm less fixed on the Skill/Conviction/Relationship thing. Skill and Relationship makes good sense, but perhaps your Wealth suggestion would be better than Conviction. In creating sample characters, I find myself using Conviction the least. Perhaps "Resource" might be a better description for this, and have it cover any and all useful temporal influence- friends, money, property, or a really kickass car. It works like a Relationship, but is based on either using the resource to further your desires, or being motivated by your felings for the resource.

I do like the idea of picking relationship "slots" and keeping them open, and picking them out during play. The empty slot would give a character an incentive to flesh out his connections to the setting quickly, but it works both ways. Picking "Ex-Wife" as a Relationship immediatly adds something to the setting, as would "Sworn Vengence against the Cult of the Black Star." Bam- you're got an Ex-Wife you still love, and an evil cult to fight. More than anything, I want to setting to exist in service to great dynamic characters.

I'll monkey around with the traits, and the die bonuses they give (and any particular specific constraints on them) this weekend.

Spooky, you've been a hell of a lot of help on this.

Thanks,

-Ben

I'd personally be leery about dropping Conviction, as it makes for some good drama when a character is screaming "MUST! SUCCEED!"/"OH, HELL NO!" when supporting his Conviction/opposing someone interfering with it. Magic types, at least in books and movies, tend to have some pretty strong thou shalt/not's hardwired into their decision-making processes.

I like the idea for Resources, though. Much better name. Perhaps Skills, Convictions, and Resources?

It's up to you, but I'd keep "name-worthy" Relationships (on both sides) as an entirely separate category, which also fluctuates up or down depending on the Score in question. Either the player or the GM has to narrate how screwing up the Crisis had a negative impact on the Relationship as well as the negative impact on the Skill, Resource, Art, etc. Kinda does what you see happening in books, movies, or graphic novels, where a Crisis resolved (one way or another) is somehow reflected in a Relationship the character has. Helps to personify the outcome a bit.

Only bit of problem I see is: if Relationships are a seperate category (removing the need for Patron), and Approach is already covered during Initiation, what the hell balances out the Mystery side of the sheet? It should be something meaningful (like Resources), but something not already covered. Unless, of course, you keep Patron as an uber-relationship, and keep the other Relationships on the Mystery side as someone more than an ally, but less central than the Main Figure.

I think I have a better handle on my traits now, and I'm going to stick with the skill/conviction/relationship thing, and with the art/arcana/patron thing.

They aren’t quite the same thing, and I think I'm comfortable with that. Something like a Resource can be rolled neatly into Background- if you describe your character as a 'Spoiled Rich Boy recently shocked into a revelation of the larger world' then right off you know you get a Gratis die when rolling in conflicts involving money and buying power, and the GM would assess any penalty dice based on your Background. Tommy Monroe (of the Connecticut Monroes) could easily manage to pay off the back taxes on some land he owned- it wouldn't even be a conflict for him- but John Crowley will have to scrape to manage the same conflict.

What really matters- and what makes it a Trait- is how the character feels about his wealth. Tommy might have a "Hates money as only the rich know how" relationship trait which describes his attitude to and relationship with his money. When engaging in conflicts which involve wild spending, he'd get the bonus dice for it.

I've also refined the number of dice you get for a given trait, thusly:

Art/Skill: Grants one die to all checks, and can be used as often as it applies. Cross-purpose use grants 1 Trouble.

Conviction/Arcana: Grants 1 die to all score checks and 2 to all cross-purpose checks. Can be so used once per session per score, and cross-purpose use grants 2 Trouble.

Relationship/Patron: grants 2 dice to all score checks, and 3 to all cross-purpose checks. Can be used once and only once per session, and grants 3 Trouble for cross-purpose checks.

There is a fundamental difference in Relationship and Patron, despite the identical mechanical function. A Relationship is internal- the character's feelings towards and outside person/place/thing which are powerful enough to drive and motivate. A Patron is an entirely external force upon which the character can call for intervention and power. One drives the character to do better, the other sweeps down and helps the character do better.

Here is the hinky bit- it is entirely possible to have a Relationship based on Identity for a creature or patron of the Mystery.

Say you have a gothy teen girl with a Mystery trait Patron "The Vampire Byron." She could also have a Relationship under her Identity with something like "In love with the Vampire." or "Byron's Lover" or something like that. One is her feelings for the vampire, the other is the vampire's power itself. Her feelings- even for a supernatural thing- are part of her Identity, while the thing itself is part of her Mystery.

A Conviction could be "Cabalistic Mysticism" or "Ritual Magic" if they are things you believe in and which drive your actions. The Mystery doesn't need you to believe in it for it to be real- it is real, you see it, and it is so.

-Ben

So, a seer's style of magic is basically background unless the player makes it a Conviction? Good. Makes sense.

As for how the Trouble points work out, I'd actually have to play the game itself to see them in action. Do you have a playtest doc? Or are you ironing out the extended conflicts and other mechanics first? Please keep us informed!

I'm hoping to have a basic playtest doc cooked by this weekend- and I may get to try it out on my group next Thursday or so.

Right now, I'm pretty comfortable with the basic nuts and bolts, but I'm still trying to formalize the conflict and conflict scaling.

One thing I'm playing with is based on your suggestion to 'up-scale' a Crisis at each stage of resolution, and I'm trying to formalize this somewhat in terms of an expanding sphere of consequences (with general guidelines on how many people/how much area/how long it lasts for each step). Each successful check to resolve a Crisis upscales one step, and a failure ripples outward at the same scale.

For example, Kate Blake (our goth girl) is attacked by the hypnotized human minions of another Seer (her ex-boyfriend she dumped for her undead lover). She uses a combination of her Athleticism and The Vampire Byron's intervention to avoid injury or death, but the conflict triggers a 3 point Crisis which threatens her "Basically a Good Person" conviction- seeing the Vampire rip her attackers apart and drink their blood was both revolting and alluring to her, and Byron's offer to take her way from the despicable mortal world was tempting... but she still thinks of herself as basically good, and is justly horrified by her demon-lover's actions.

So, on the line is a point of Identity and specifically her "Basically a Good Person" conviction.

It requires three successful Identity checks resolve the crisis, but three failures mean the trait is lost.

She puts on jeans and a tee-shirt, wipes off the makeup, and goes home to visit her family in North Carolina for a weekend, trying to reconnect with the normality of daily life, and perhaps get some kind of confirmation from her folks that she still IS basically a good person. She makes the check.

We move from Scale 1 (affects only the character) to Scale 2 for the next check (affects those close to the character- family and friends). But this check she blows, and now her family is threatened by the Crisis in some way. The GM gets narration rights on this (because her Trouble total is now less than her Identity score), and narrates how, during the early evening, a knock sounds at the door. Kate's father opens it, and the Vampire is there, dressed like the pre-med student Kate told her family she was dating. He says, "Hi, I'm Byron- Kate's boyfriend... she said it might be OK if I stopped by this weekend if I was visiting my relatives in Ashford."

On the next successful Crisis check, the Scale bumps to 3, which expands outward to affect the local community. In this case, her family's friends and associations, her father's coworkers, neighbors, and whatnot, and the success/fail of the check is narrated by whoever wins that right based on the trouble/score interactions.

I need to formalize this conflict scale thing, and figure out if I want some kind of complex or extended conflict mechanics. Group conflicts also need some attention.

I'm not sure if the basic math is sound, and I'll have to playtest and tweak the numbers to get things to fall out just so.

-B