Rather than engage in thread necromancy, I started this new topic. The old topic is at:

Banthas in the Vineyard

What I'd like to do here, is assemble all of the pieces necessary to handle a Jedi game using Dogs in the Vineyard.

As I see it, the following topics need to be handled:


Town Creation



Jedi Powers



Character Creation



The old topic handled town creation adequately, I think.

There was a little bit of stuff on jedi powers (using a variant of the ceremony rules) but it's not really complete as far as I can see. Once those are handled, character creation will have to encompass that as well.

Now the ceremony rules, as they currently exist, talk about what the Dog DOES rather than what it accomplishes... which is fine. I'm not sure that carries over to Jedi well, but let's try these elements of jedi powers as a foundation:


Senses



Matter



Minds



Energy



Senses covers ESP of various sorts. Matter covers the ability to toss things around, including one's own body, or Vader's throat pinch. Minds covers the "jedi mind trick" and the ability to call out to others. Energy covers Vader's blaster-dissipation trick and "force lightning". I've listed them in increasing order of difficulty and effectiveness; the higher up the ladder you go, the more effective the technique is, but the more accomplished you have to be to make it work.

The thing is... I don't know what to do with this foundation. I'm kinda stuck. Any suggestions?

Let's not try to map ceremony to another representation of ceremony, but to what ceremony mechanically does. It is the only way to raise the Fallout your enemies take without becoming violent.

So, all that Force Lightning and stuff is out. Those are just traits that get used when you're fighting.

So, what are formalized methods a Jedi learns in order to non-violently affect others?

- Finding the Balance (Qui-Jon, Epi. 1, force shields vs. Darth Maul, meditation)
- Rolling Tongues (use of the Force to make one's voice calm and peace-inducing)
- The Force is my Shield (raise your hand in an open palm and draw the Force to it. This is less a physical shield and more a spiritual one.)
- Peer in the Universe of the Eye (look directly in another's eyes and live in their internal universe for a moment, altering their conciousness)

Three in All can stay the same. I'm sure we can think of some others to go here.

Understand that by its nature, "Banthas in the Vineyard" will fuse Jedi color with Old West missionary/Mormon culture. The idea of "Jedi" is so fluid (midicholorians? what the fuck are those? oh.) that this doesn't really matter.

I don't think the fusion is a problem, mainly because it's my opinion that Jedi culture and Mormon culture draw from much the same roots.

Are we missing any of the elements of jedi ceremony?

What do you think of, "Your eyes can deceive you - reach out with your feelings" as an element? The jedi closes his eyes in order to better connect with the Force.

Vaxalon wrote:
What do you think of, "Your eyes can deceive you - reach out with your feelings" as an element? The jedi closes his eyes in order to better connect with the Force.

Calling on the dark side as Demonic Influence becomes way more tempting :) I dig it.

Chris

Just like Dogs takes a particular place and time in the history of the West, so Banthas should take a particular place and time in the history of the Star Wars galaxy.

At the end of Knights of the Old Republic, when the Star Forge is destroyed, thousands of dark jedi are killed... but in the middle of a vortex of darkside energy. Their essences are charged by the destruction of the Star Forge, and flung across the galaxy.

These disembodied dark siders form the "demons" against which the Jedi will contend. If they are able to worm themselves into a colony deeply enough, they can posess someone, and be reborn, in a way.

Only Jedi can be trusted to expunge the galaxy of this threat.

I've just read this and checked the previous thread, and I don't think this has been mentioned before, so:

Shouldn't Force Powers just be expressed as a relationship with the Force? You know, like "The Force is Strong with Me - 2D6"?

This is distinct from "I'm a Jedi" which just represents being a member of the organisation.

That way, IMHO, there's no need to come up with a list of specific Powers.

And if a Jedi starts using the Force out of Anger, then I would expect that, through Fallout, they would start to build a relationship with the Dark Side of the Force. Which means that they can call on the Dark Side to help them out (just like the existing Sorcery rules in Dogs.) And what that means to their soul is in their hands, to paraphrase Vincent.

Yes, that's all true, and doesn't apply to the question I'm asking.

Which is:

What ceremony-like techniques do Jedi use to connect with the Force?

Vaxalon wrote: Yes, that's all true, and doesn't apply to the question I'm asking.

Which is:

What ceremony-like techniques do Jedi use to connect with the Force?

Closing eyes, got that, upthread.

A character's relationship with emotion, both positive and negative, is probably something that sorely needs to be addressed. I'm not sure it's an aspect of ceremony, though.

Vaxalon wrote: Closing eyes, got that, upthread.

How about "naming fear"? Your own or your opponent's.

-Vincent

Interesting, can you give an example, either from the movies or hypothetical? I *think* I know what you're talking about... that when you name a fear, you either empower it or disempower it, depending on your worldview...

Luke facing the illusory Vader in the cave. The Emperor telling Luke his friends are doomed. Stuff like that.

-Vincent

Let me see if I understand this...

On the light side, Luke told the Emperor,

"Never! I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

Yep!

You remember the movies better than I do.

-Vincent

I don't think the Light Side can play other people's fears. I mean... that's why they're the Light Side. They can face their own fears though, right?

Or... oh merciful heavens.

Whatever the Dogs... ahem, Jedi... whatever they do, that's what the Light Side is, right?

Errgggggh.... head... hurting.

It is a sign of my geekiness that I have no problem with a game where players might portray God as vindictive, spiteful and cruel, but my brain almost explodes when you offer to put Yoda in the same position.

In the other Banthas thread, folks mention several places where Obi-Wan, Luke, and other Lightsiders commit acts that could be construed as mean, evil, or at the very least callously dismissive of human suffering.

But for DitV, that's not a problem.

They're following the Force.

In some writings, there was something of a schism in the lightside Jedi long before Phantom Menace; the two sides were "Living Force" and "Universal Force"... Qui-Gon is pretty much the last practitioner of the former, which took a much more practical, moment-to-moment view of the force than the Council did.

It is important to note that Obi-Wan, Anikin, and Luke are all products, at least in part, of Qui-Gon's teaching.

Okay, I think the topic of Ceremony has been adequately covered, now that I understand ceremony better.

I don't think character creation needs much in the way of changes.

I had an inspiration for the element to put in place of the coat though...

The droid.

Now not all jedi have a droid companion. There wasn't one in Phantom Menace, and in New Hope, Obi-wan says, "I don't think I've ever owned a droid." Since my campaign will be set in post-KOTOR Old Republic, though, I think I can be allowed a bit of license on that regard.

So instead of being told to describe their coat (and give it a rating) the jedi will describe a companion droid.

Vaxalon wrote:
I had an inspiration for the element to put in place of the coat though...

The droid.

Okay, then what replaces the character's description of his gun?

The character creation system asks for the coat AND the gun.

Starship?

I'm with Clinton: The lightsaber is the essential symbol of Jedi-ness and authority. It's what shows that they're jedi.

Vaxalon wrote: Okay, then what replaces the character's description of his gun?

The character creation system asks for the coat AND the gun.

Okay, I can see that, you're entirely right...

But droids definitely need to be in the picture.

It's not Star Wars without a droid.

I mean, how cool was HK-74, meatbag?

Yeah, and starships too. Starships, especially personalized ones like the Millennium Falcon, should go on the character sheet.

Maybe this is something that needs to be part of a shared character creation... each player takes one or two dice from his own character creation, and assigns it to some aspect of the droid or the starship that the group shares.

I'm just here snickering because I can write "C3P0, crap: 1d4" on my character sheet.

Does anything in Star Warsville get the bonus d4 that guns get?

-Vincent

lumpley wrote:
Does anything in Star Warsville get the bonus d4 that guns get?

Y'know, I'd dismissed giving lightsabers the d4 as something that would make lightsabers too interesting. Now I'm like - whoa, giving lightsabers that d4 makes them really interesting.

Clinton obviously owns this conversation.

-Vincent

Oh, yeah. When the lightsabers come out, SOMEONE is going to be hurtin'. Gotta have that d4.

Darth Maul's lightsaber is clearly both excellent and big. 2d8+1d4.

Bastila, in KOTOR, also carries a double lightsaber, by the way.

An "ordinary" lightsaber is just excellent, 2d6+1d4.

A jedi could choose to carry one that's substandard, 1d6+1d4.

It would have to be regularly malfunctioning to be 1d4+1d4.

The option exists in KOTOR to carry two lightsabers... What do you think, make it 3d6+1d4 for the pair, 3d6+2d4 for one ordinary, one substandard, or 2d6+1d4 for each, for a total of 4d6+2d4, or just leave it up to the player?

And do I have your permission to defenestrate anyone who mentions "midichlorians" on their character sheet?

Vaxalon wrote: The option exists in KOTOR to carry two lightsabers... What do you think, make it 3d6+1d4 for the pair, 3d6+2d4 for one ordinary, one substandard, or 2d6+1d4 for each, for a total of 4d6+2d4, or just leave it up to the player?

Droid "slavery" is an issue that never comes up in the movies. I wouldn't make it a part of any SW game I ran.

I agreed with Clinton that the coat rules are best used for the lightsaber(s) that the jedi carries, rather than robes.

I think I'll leave it up to the player, how to handle an "offhand" lightsaber... if it's as good as any other lightsaber, I'll give it 2d6+4, if it's not, then 1d6+4.

Here's the rules answer on offhand lightsabers: a post of mine in [DitV] Dealing with *reservoir* Dogs :).

-Vincent

lumpley wrote: Here's the rules answer on offhand lightsabers: a post of mine in [DitV] Dealing with *reservoir* Dogs :).

-Vincent

Nifty.

Now I'll hijack my own thread here, now that the mechanics issues seem to have been handled:

What do you think of the campaign premise I posted upthread?

Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
So - I'm definitely running this as a one-shot one Sunday.

Clinton wrote: Vincent, you mind if I write up my rules mods and distribute it on the down-low? (There's that whole Star Wars IP to deal with.)

I know this post is kind of behind but I like the idea for a Jedi type Dogs, I do agree that a Lightsaber would be a sign of office and remember that Luke also carried a blaster. So there is a possibility that you could use that for Coat & Gun. And it is true that most Jedi have to make there own Lightsaber at the end of there training and are unique to the Jedi if any of you have read Yong Jedi Knights they have a part explaining this one apprentice nearly gets herself killed and looses here arm in the process. As for setting I would say that the best spot for a dog’s campaign would be in the era of Knights of the Old Republic. Or for people that know the setting well The New Jedi Order.

New Jedi Order doesn't have the mass death of darkside jedi that post-KOTOR does.

true, there is the jedi acadamy area for a setting

First: The Dark Side is not just seductive, it has a will of its own. As players become ...more aqquainted... with its power, they may find themselves in cnflict with themselves, just trying to remain in control. If that happens, it should probably be similar to the character creation conflict, with the GM playing the tempation. Only difference is, the GM gets any dice the player has for relationships to the Dark Side, or powerful Dark Side traits. If the player loses, the player MUST call upon the Dark Side, and suffer the appropriate fall-out.
Second: Much mention has been made of the various characters occasional casual harming of others. Almost always, however, less overall harm was done than if that harm had not been done, i.e. if Luke fails to destroy the Death Star, many planets, and trillions of people, will be wiped out of existence. If Luke doesn't take direct and threatening action against the Gamorreans, they will likely attack him, causing him to kill or maim them in his own defense, which is definitely worse than brief pain. If Obi-wan doesn't stop the man in the cantina IMMEDIATELY, people will almost certainly get shot.
The gist of the second point is that while motivations are most important in playing jedi, if a jedi harms innocents without greater purpose, even through negligence, the jedi has done evil, and would face dark side related fallout.
Oh, and a few little points in response to various things from within this thread, and the origional:
There are plenty of instances in the various bits of literature of cultish small groups of darksiders, especially centered around a strong central figure.
The dark side feeds on emotions, (anger, fear, and agression) which are typcially the cause of, and the result of, evil. To that end, dark jedi need not be in positions of power, but oppressive governments, large scale prejudices, and wars of expansion all serve to spread these emotions on a far greater scale than dark jedi going pscho in small communities, so the dark side will tend to encourage ambition.
Force strength could be a single d6, rolled whenever a character calls upon the force for an action. It would, however, only be usable for that action (you don't have to use it all, you can take other dice from your pool, but you can't save it, you must roll it again when next you need it). This is meant to allow, in game mechanics, for the fact that jedi are depicted as poseesing more or less limitless resources of physical and mental energy, as long as they continue to draw upon the force, in control of theselves and with good intentions, and one of the books (I forget which one, so forgive the unattributed quote) has a character speak of battleing jedi "Because they fight for life, life fights with them, and while they fight for life, they cannot be defeated." If rolled for reasons other than knowledge and defense, however, (as determined by the roller) it carries with it an IMMEDIATE 1d4 relationship to the dark side.

Whew. That was almost certainly longer than it had to be, but it's my first post (not just to the threat, but to the forum). I just started playing DitV this weekend, and I love the game, and as a longstanding (I saw RotJ in theaters, as an infant, and was hooked immediately) SW geek, I felt I had to say something. I didn't quite intend to say this much, but it's a fascinating concept. If anyone gets around to putting this together as a supplemental pack, I would be happy to help, and I recommend you read the old Star Wars 2nd ed. Core book, which has alot of helpful advice for GMs about what kinds of things make jedi susceptible to the Dark Side.
Oh, btw, hi, I'm Matt

You have a lot of interesting ideas wound up in that post, lupis, let me see if I can address them one at a time:

"The dark side is not just seductive, it has a will of its own."

I prefer to let my players decide when their characters are wrestling with the dark side. I don't like anything that smacks of deprotagonization.

"The gist of the second point is that while motivations are most important in playing jedi, if a jedi harms innocents without greater purpose, even through negligence, the jedi has done evil, and would face dark side related fallout."

What you seem to be saying, is that if a jedi attempts to do the right thing, but fails, and innocents are harmed as a result, that there should be dark side fallout. I don't agree with this. When *I* run the game, the player desides when there's dark side fallout... because the player ALWAYS decides what his fallout is.

"The dark side feeds on emotions, (anger, fear, and agression) which are typcially the cause of, and the result of, evil. To that end, dark jedi need not be in positions of power, but oppressive governments, large scale prejudices, and wars of expansion all serve to spread these emotions on a far greater scale than dark jedi going pscho in small communities, so the dark side will tend to encourage ambition. "

The dark side also wants to remain hidden. Ambition attracts attention; if the dark side has just been dealt a major blow (the destruction of the Star Forge and the defeat of Malak) then it's not going to be wanting to poke its head up immediately. It's going to be wanting to cultivate secret centers of power that can support its eventual return to the galactic stage.

That's how it will work in MY game anyways.

"Force strength could be a single d6, rolled whenever a character calls upon the force for an action."

The strength of a particular character with the Force could be ANY size attribute, and it can concievably grow with time. I'm not going to dictate to the players how much to put into that.

"Because they fight for life, life fights with them, and while they fight for life, they cannot be defeated."

Clearly, this is not 100% true. Jedi get defeated in the canon (as opposed to the Extended Universe) on many occasions, even when they're fighting on the side of life. Dozens of Jedi fall in the arena scene in episode 2. Before episode 4, (possibly in episode 3) Darth Vader kills lots more Jedi.

I'm not saying you are WRONG on any of these points. I'm just saying that I have good reasons for not doing things the way you describe.

Your explanations make alot of sense, and of course you and your player should run the game in the manner that works best for you.
A few clarifications though: I don't mean to say that when jedi try to do the right thing, but fail, there would be darkside fallout. I mean that when jedi allpw innocents to be harmed without seeking another way there should be darkside fallout. If, for example, a jedi kills the carrier of an infections disease because there is no cure, and no other way to prevent to the disease from spreading, there would be no darkside fallout, but if the jedi did so without first determining that there was no other way, there should be. I don't mean to suggest that it should be GM imposed, rather, its somthing the players should take into consideration when determining fallout.
(In general, I don't mean to suggest that anything has to be either GM or player determined per se, I simply suggest things that I think should come up, although I think the idea of an unexpected temptaion by the darkside would be an interesting thing to write into a 'town').
The Dark Side's desire to remain hidden is something I hadn't thought about, but it makes alot of sense. Kudos.
As for the force strength thing, the size of the die is more or less irrelevant, the point is that unlike a regular trait, this one can be rolled repeatedly within a single conflict, but cannot be carried over. It functions on a completely independant basis. The idea here, as reflected in the quote is not that jedi are invulnerable, but that they have a limitless source of energy aiding them, and can draw from it steadily for as long as they need to. They can still be defeated, and they will also frequently choose their own death as an alternative to a percieved greater evil of similar immediacy. (For example, a jedi might surrender to execution rather than have innocents executed in his place, if there was no other way to save them). Because dark jedi also draw on the force, and because the degree to which jedi can draw on the force at any one time are both limited, many jedi will still die in battle, but from being overwhelmed, overpowered, or unlucky, not from lack of endurance.
Hope this explains a bit more of my thinking, and of course, use what works for you, ignore what doesn't. I won't be offended. If you ever codify any of it though, and actually make that pdf mentioned earlier, let me know as I'd love a copy.
matt

Hm, I think I see what you are talking about, with regard to the force die.

If you make it a SINGLE die, or one for drawing on the light side and one for drawing on the dark side, then conflicts can still end, because the Jedi will need TWO dice whenever it's his turn to act. Against anyone who isn't drawing on the force, he'll have a HUGE advantage, though.

I don't see the number of dice on either side as really having to do with "endurance" though.

I'll have to think about this one.

Endurance may be the wrong word. You have it exactly though. And remember, jedi have huge advantges over everyone else, at almost any physical or mental task, especially things requiring emotional stability, or insight.

Jedi, according to the prequel trilogy, are supposed to avoid connections, passions, loves. Relationships should be really interesting in this game.

That's what they're there for, duh.

"Dogs are, to a one, young, unmarried virgins."

Riiiight.