So there I was, trying to think of a scenario to run for AmberCon 2002 (see, GMs get preference over non-GMs when selecting games, and the popular games are damn hard to get into, so it makes sense to run an event if you possibly can), when my friend the Amber GM Laureate said "Why don't you do an Exalted game? I've been dying to play Exalted ever since you talked me into buying it." (Why did I do that? Because I really like the setting.)

Being an utter congenital idiot, I agreed.

So now I'm stuck trying to create a diceless version of Exalted.

For those of you who don't know, the "social contract" of AmberCons is that games other than ADRPG (that's the Amber Diceless Role-Playing Game, from Phage Press) are acceptable as long as they are diceless; "diceless" is more precisely defined as "using no Fortune-based mechanics," so cards, coin-flipping, etc. are unacceptable as well. Since I'm not a brilliantly original game designer, and anyway it wouldn't make sense to waste a brilliantly original idea on a game I can never publish, I'm trying to adapt an available set of diceless rules to the purpose. Ideally, I'd like the result to be more suited to Narrativist play than the published system, so that I can use it instead of the published system if/when I run Exalted (the setting of which I like very much) for my own gaming group.

ADRPG would be the obvious choice, but it just doesn't work--one of the fundamental simplifying assumptions Wujcik made in designing that system is that the characters have all lived so long, and done so many different things, that it's meaningless to try to quantify their skills, because they've had time to master any skill that interests them. This does not apply to Exalted, where, though PCs can expect to live 2000 years or more (barring violence), they start out less than a century old. I would have to invent a skill system for ADRPG, and the more I think about that, the more nausea I feel. Anyway, I've never been impressed with the ADRPG system--most GMs wind up discarding the Karma mechanics and just using Drama for everything.

Right now, I'm looking at a modified version of the Story Engine (second edition) from Hubris Games. The diceless variation of the rules uses a simple Karma mechanic, and if I decide to use these rules again outside the AmberCon environment, I can easily put the Fortune back in without modifying anything else.

WARNING: The rest of this post will make very little sense to you unless you are familiar with both Exalted and the Story Engine.

Instead of allocating Descriptors to the Aspects of Matter, Mind, Spirit and Chaos, I'm using Physical, Mental and Social Aspects, plus "Virtue Descriptors" that are subdivided according to Exalted's four Virtues of Compassion, Conviction, Temperance and Valor. I'm also increasing the starting allowance of Descriptors (since four Descriptors isn't really enough even for mere mortals, and the Exalted are supposed to be substantially more butch than that)--at the moment I'm looking at nine Descriptors, three Virtue Descriptors, and one Quirk for starting characters, but I may adjust that based on play-testing, if I even get a chance to do play-testing before the con. (Unconquered Sun help me if I don't.)

Physical, Mental and Social Descriptors will be used for scene resolution exactly the way Descriptors are normally used in the Story Engine (including burning them for Quick Takes or to increase point totals). Virtue Descriptors can be burned to increase point totals, too, but only under the same circumstances where one would ordinarily be able to use Virtue dice in Exalted; instead of adding one point (as regular Descriptors do when burned), they add one point per Descriptor in that Virtue. Virtue Descriptors must also be burned to act against one's Virtues, under the same circumstances where one would need to fail a Virtue check in Exalted. Limit and Limit Breaks work exactly as in Exalted, except that one's Limit Break taboo causes one to gain Limit points equal to the number of Descriptors one has in the Limit Break's governing Virtue, and experiencing a Limit Break causes one to un-burn the same number of Descriptors of the player's choice (regular Descriptors, Virtue Descriptors, or any combination).

Trait Affinities are restricted to the 25 standard Abilities from Exalted; a starting character gets all his Caste Affinities at "weak," plus 15 additional affinity increments to spread around as desired (where a weak affinity costs one increment, a mild affinity costs two, and a strong affinity costs three). When buying Trait Affinities with Story Points, Caste and Favored Affinities are one point cheaper than unfavored Affinities. Affinity Specialties are available (up to three per Trait Affinity, cost is one Story Point for Caste/Favored Affinities or two for unfavored, each adds one point to scene resolution where applicable); unlike Exalted, a character can't take the same specialty more than once.

Backgrounds will be handled as Prime Affinities, simply because anything that isn't a Descriptor, a Quirk or a Trait Affinity must be a Prime Affinity. Need to think more about that part of the system.

Charms are going to be the real bastard. I haven't figured out what to do about them yet.

I'm also going to need to tweak the Hard Rate. At first glance, it looks as though doubling it should be about right (Easy=2, Hard=4, Very Hard=8, and so on), since the point totals used by the diceless version of the Story Engine are equal to the dice pools used by the regular version (and therefore about twice the expected number of Odds). I absolutely cannot understand why the rules don't say to double the Hard Rate when playing diceless.

Well, that's what I've got so far. Comments urgently solicited, and if you think you've got a better idea for an underlying mechanic, don't be afraid to throw my work away and start from scratch. I'm not proud, I'll take whatever help I can get.

I'm not familiar with Story Engine nor with the details of Exalted, so I can't help you for that last bit. But, hey, never let it be said I don't pimp my own creations -- while I'm sure that you won't find the New Mutiny system a simple drop-in fit for your game, you might find some ideas.

Click here for New Mutiny rules

I'd suggest, in general, that you try to avoid a "one to one" conversion of Exalted to Story Engine. Most diceless systems don't reward a listing of character abilities as fine-grained as the Storyteller system uses. Create more generalized powers that include (say) a set of Charms apiece, and let people put points in those powers and describe their power use as anything that's descriptively similar to the included set of Charms.

In a con game, you won't be able to use the wealth of options available to Exalted anyhow, so you might as well keep things simpler for your sanity.

OK, let me peface by saying that I LOVE AMBER DRPG AND THE FACT THAT I HAVE NEVER BEEN TO AMBERCON IS ON OF THE WORST INJUSTICES IN THIS MOST UNJUST OF UNIVERSES

But I can deal with my own trauma.

As for a diceless EXALTED...

I ran a Diceless Mage game for six sessions, and it went swimmingly once I adopted the right mindset.

With the Storyteller mechanics, you generaly have a trait range of about 10 steps (five attribute dice + 5 skill/ability dice). Sometimes you get more.

Ten steps is plenty to adjudicate Amber-style narritive conflict, and I managed it even with the damn-near infinite permutations possible with the Mage magic mechanics.

Admitidly, I don't understand the Exalted power mechanics (I've done no more than thumb through it), but it can't be as frustrating as all the wonky stuff players come up with using mage magic (or, for that matter, the Logrus, but that is a beast of a different suite).

I found it was easy to judge what a player could do by ignoring all the system mechanics associated with a given power, and look at the descriptions of what each power level offered. This is how Amber works, anyway.

Willpower can be bid to increase your action total, as can the "power meter" trait (quintessence in Mage) for mystical actions.

When you need to know just how much a magical ability modifies a given total, use it's dot-ranking.

I also ported over Good Stuff and Bad stuff. Good Stuff costs Freebe points, while Bad Stuff grants Freebe Points.


I don't think you even need to make any kind of major conversion, when you have a perfectyl servicible diceless-ready system right there at hand.




And damn you damn you damn you. I should be the one to go to Ambercon.







::sulk::

Epoch wrote: I'd suggest, in general, that you try to avoid a "one to one" conversion of Exalted to Story Engine. Most diceless systems don't reward a listing of character abilities as fine-grained as the Storyteller system uses.

Metal Fatigue wrote:

Epoch wrote: I'd suggest, in general, that you try to avoid a "one to one" conversion of Exalted to Story Engine. Most diceless systems don't reward a listing of character abilities as fine-grained as the Storyteller system uses.

I agree, and I consider that to be the greatest failing of ADRPG-influenced system designs. When the mechanics don't describe the character's strengths and weaknesses in sufficient detail, you have to go outside the mechanics. This is why, despite the emphasis on Karma in the ADRPG rules, every Amber game I've ever been in has been run using Drama for the vast majority of action resolution; since there are no rules for Drama-based action resolution, the GM is walking the high wire without a net. New Mutiny is an improvement, but not a vast one.

Metal Fatiuge wrote: In fact, the examples of Trait Affinities in the Story Engine rules are even finer-grained than in Exalted--"fist-fighting" and "locksmith" are given as examples, whereas Exalted would subsume those under Brawl and Craft respectively.

Also, simplifying skills to the extent that you suggest would completely break the existing system of Castes from Exalted, destroying much of the game's flavor. I am trying to come up with diceless mechanics for Exalted, not create a new game in a strikingly similar setting.

Bailywolf wrote: I found it was easy to judge what a player could do by ignoring all the system mechanics associated with a given power, and look at the descriptions of what each power level offered. This is how Amber works, anyway.

And damn you damn you damn you. I should be the one to go to Ambercon.

::sulk::

Epoch wrote: Get something else into the resolution system. I'd suggest a "blind bid" solution (spend points for a one-time bonus to your trait).

Blow away virtue

use limit as a supernatural total max (have more dots in your magical thingy than in Limit, and you risk- what's it called' a limit break.... think Chaos cancer... the GM says "you are tired and your Willpower is running low... if you use your charm at this level, you risk Limit Break, do you wish to continue? yes, and their Stuff totals determines how bad it gets, no and they reduce their power.

Essence pools should be easy enough (how many points are we talking about?) Bring a big bag of those multi-colored gormet jelly beans. I'll bet no one bitches about a pile of candy they get to eat as they burn them!

Personally, I'd stay with the normal White Wolf character sheet all the way. I worked on a game like this that's continually on the back burner, and all attributes and skills were rated 1 to 5, as in White Wolf. In addition, you had an attribute called Fate, rated 1-5 (or 1-10, if you want people to have more control over their fate.)

Everyone starts out with a Fate Pool - 50's a good number - and you can spend up to your Fate on any action. Actions are rated at Attribute + Skill + Fate spent.

Quick. Easy. Works.

Cool Idea. Exalted and StoryEngine are two of my favorite games. I come to add my ideas to the group.

I like the idea of putting the Descriptors into the Mental, Physical, Social boxes. This seems to fit well between both systems. As do the use of Affinities for skills. Your original post said something about a problem doing Charms...

Most Charms do one of two things:
1) Allow the Exalt to add more points to a skill or attribute. Basically channeling Essence into abilties they already have.
2) Give them the power to do something extraordinary.
For both, there are special in-story related descriptions that go with the effect.

Each character gets a pool of Essence. The use of a type 1 above allows you to spend essence to add points to a scene, just as if you had a stronger Skill Affinity. The use of a Type 2 is usually an all or nothing sort of thing. You spend essence and can do X, sort of an narrative thing.
Story Engine calls these sorts of things Gifts.

Hope this helps.. luck to you in doing this sort of thing.

Bailywolf wrote: limit break.... think Chaos cancer... the GM says "you are tired and your Willpower is running low... if you use your charm at this level, you risk Limit Break, do you wish to continue? yes, and their Stuff totals determines how bad it gets, no and they reduce their power.

Bailywolf wrote: Essence pools should be easy enough (how many points are we talking about?) Bring a big bag of those multi-colored gormet jelly beans. I'll bet no one bitches about a pile of candy they get to eat as they burn them!

Torrent wrote: I like the idea of putting the Descriptors into the Mental, Physical, Social boxes. This seems to fit well between both systems.

Torrent wrote: Each character gets a pool of Essence. The use of a type 1 above allows you to spend essence to add points to a scene, just as if you had a stronger Skill Affinity. The use of a Type 2 is usually an all or nothing sort of thing. You spend essence and can do X, sort of an narrative thing.

Clinton R Nixon wrote: Personally, I'd stay with the normal White Wolf character sheet all the way. I worked on a game like this that's continually on the back burner, and all attributes and skills were rated 1 to 5, as in White Wolf. In addition, you had an attribute called Fate, rated 1-5 (or 1-10, if you want people to have more control over their fate.) Everyone starts out with a Fate Pool - 50's a good number - and you can spend up to your Fate on any action. Actions are rated at Attribute + Skill + Fate spent.

Hi there,

This post is just about a small side-point, but every little bit, right?

In cinema, "Cute as a button" gets characters through fights all the time. [Cue discussion re: role-playing being or not being cinema. Fast-forward. Resume point.]

The swords are hacking, the bullets are firing, people are leapin' and screamin' all over the place. But I'm "cute as a button," which means I can do a Cyrano Jones waltz through the battlefield with nothing hitting me, and even (with a perky smile and head-tilt) ankle up behind a bad guy and push him ass over teakettle.

Think in terms of effects, not cause, and many descriptors are tremendously flexible especially in combat. One thing that I do not like about Story Engine is confining descriptors to "type," in that X or Y descriptor is for all intents and purposes absent in a scene of the wrong type. In practice, I've found that opening up that side of things - permitting descriptors to cross type - has no downside.

Best,
Ron

Metal Fatigue wrote:

Epoch wrote: Get something else into the resolution system. I'd suggest a "blind bid" solution (spend points for a one-time bonus to your trait).

Allow me to point out that that's still a pure Karma mechanic. I don't see any randomizers.

Metal Fatigue wrote: I'm not "wedded" to the Story Engine, but I'd like to see a suggestion with some noticeable advantage over it before I throw it out and start over again.

Sorry about mu ignorance of Exalted- I really have only given the game a five minute look-over...

Conceptualy, how do Virtues and the limit break thing work? What is the result of blowing it? What is the core function of the WW mechanic that needs to be preserved? Is it really just an excuse to limit power, bone characters, or reduce utitlity of supernatural ability, or is it an intimate element of setting/premise/color? If you can niggle out the squishy naked interior of the mechanic, a practical soultion might be obvious.

You know, I'm beginning to think I may need to run playtesting sessions with two or three different sets of mechanics and see which one goes more smoothly. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time.

Grr.

Ron Edwards wrote: One thing that I do not like about Story Engine is confining descriptors to "type," in that X or Y descriptor is for all intents and purposes absent in a scene of the wrong type.

Epoch wrote: the blind bid mechanic is effectively a randomizer

Epoch wrote: From your initial message, I got the impression that you were really floundering with your current direction.

Bailywolf wrote: Conceptualy, how do Virtues and the limit break thing work? What is the result of blowing it? What is the core function of the WW mechanic that needs to be preserved? Is it really just an excuse to limit power, bone characters, or reduce utitlity of supernatural ability, or is it an intimate element of setting/premise/color?

What I'm trying to preserve, therefore, is threefold: first, I want to retain the use of Virtue scores as a Pendragon-esque personality mechanic, where acting against the dictates of your Virtues costs you something; second, I want to retain the ability to use Virtues for metagame influence, which strikes me as a good mechanic for epic heroes; third, I want to retain the idea that the accumulation of psychological stress inevitably results in episodes of acting out.

Bailywolf wrote: I'm still thinking on using the storyteller system as the skeleton for a diceless game

If I understand the origional complaint with the system as is- it goes fiddly-bit crazy (virtues, willpower, limit, essense in two flavors). A great example of White Wolf Pain In The Ass Game Design. But personal bias aside...


Simplifiy it; When you act againt a virtue, reduce it by one. When you burn a point for a bonus, reduce it by one. When it hits zero, Limit Break- you freak out and overcompensate (or whatever). Like shifing into Primal Form, sometimes surendering charcter control is worth the benifit short-term.

You can then ditch keeping track of Limit.