While we're doing the rolling narrative of TSOY experiences, mind if I jump in and lay out what happened at my session last night?

PREAMBLE: It was VERY quick. Essentially my friends came over to see my new house (goal 1), to talk about random crap because we hand't met for like 3 weeks when normally we meet weekly and hash that stuff out before or after (goal 2), play an intruiguing code-based tile game one of the guys brought (goal 3) and to game (goal 4). The actual gaming took about 30-40 minutes of time.

ISSUE 1: Staggered Setup, Confusion Ensues
To get people into the system, I figured it would be easiest to get them used to the game by running a quick Conan adventure, basically having drafted up their Conan OGL characters of the campaign that just ended into TSOY rules and running with them.
Problem: It was easy for them to understand the abilities and pools, but keys and secrets were hard. Namely because I had to stretch to give them secrets (and did so based on their in-game behavior: "Heimdall seems to always go with Grimbol, so I'll give Heimdall Key of Fraternity: Grim, etc")... turns out that was a sticky point, because literally in the Conan OGL game the players, while they had "backgrounds", their character's Real Motivations turned out to be little less than "Navigate through the Adventure being thrown at them". If there was a "Key of Making it through the Adventure Alive", they all would have been all over that one with the understanding. As it was, it was a stretch.
Potential Solution: As things were winding down as it became late, the players suggested that we just jump straight into Andy's Campaign next week and learn the rules from there, rather than doing this half-rules, half-whatever exercise.
Potential Solution 2: I emphasized that this shit's all free, it's a light read, and they can go online to download it. I'll be sending them links again this week.

ISSUE 2: It's All New, Baby
My group is generally open to new systems. However, there are 1-2 people in the group that are hard to get used to systems other than D&D and Star Wars. They seem to react better to non-core-mechanic systems rather than systems where there is one universal mechanic and exceptions for Combat, etc. Come to think of it, Burning Wheel might go down pretty well with my group. ANYWAY, add to the newness that you get if you're not familiar with Sorcerer or other new-style games (Keys, Bonus/Penalty dice, Bringing Down the Pain, boosting rolls with other rolls, etc) and it's a little overwhelming.
Complication: I get taunted. :) When I run a game (which is often), they have no problem with my GMing skillz, but they aren't as rules-monkeyish as me. Which means that I have to do more work to get them interested and into a new rules system. On top of that, I had some... complications... when I had them playtest Kyuseisha (back when I was working on that game), so they have a habit of making fun of new systems to find the flaws with it up front, which is a little aggrivating but something I have to deal with.
Most of this comes from the fact that in previous games with new rules, either I was the only one with the rulebook, or in the case of my own game all the rules were in my head. They want something in their hands they can reference, to make it seem like it's not just all "Andy's random rules shizznit hour."
Solution There is only one: By next week, I will print out copies of the rules and bind hem for each player.
I will have to spend about three times the normal setup timepreparing handouts with rules on them.
I will have to come up with many examples of play in my head to get them familiar with the rules system, and learn it back and forth to be absolutely confident in it.
In other words, I have to do the same amount of work I do when I'm on a consulting job, but instead of meeting a potential investor or buyer, I'm meeting with my gaming group to sell them a game.
Now, mind you my guys are nice guys, laid back, not dicks, and very intelligent. But they are also resistant to unfamiliar rules. If it was just D&D with Keys, they could get that. But since there's all these new ways of playing for them, it's going to be a chore to get them up to speed. But I think the efforts will pay off if I can make it over this one major hurdle.

Solution Addendum I'm making Pre-Gens. My group said in no uncertain terms that (aside from the French guy, who loves it), they pretty much hate making characters from scratch for a new system. They all stated that they'd rather be given a choice of characters (the group is 6 players incl me, I figure make up 10 possible characters to play) to play, pick one, and play them as if they were playing a part in a stage production. To be honest, sometimes I like this too- Be handed a piece of workable coal and, through acting, turn it into a diamond.
The problem is that in TSOY the game clearly wants the players to have an active roll in character creation: The KEYS, in particular, should absolutely be made by the player because it tells the GM what kind of game they want to play.
The solution is that I'm going to create all the characters beforehand, give everyone two keys (spend one of the first advancements on an extra key), and leave them blank: Let the players choose their keys themselves. More to the point, what I'm ACTUALLY going to do is give everyone two Key Blanks, and a list of 5 possible keys for that character, and have them choose two from the list for that character. And leave room in case one of the players is like, "Can I have something else? I figure that he'd be more of a treasure hunter... is there a Key that gives me XP for finding treasure?" ("Why yes... yes there is.")

Again, this is a fuckload of work on my part. I'm shouldering the burden to make the ease into TSOY and its style of play as easy for the players as possible. Most Forgeites are rolling their eyes by now, going "Damn, dude, just find a new group! Or take the 2-3 receptive folks out and game with them!" But my players are receptive, they won't just ignore my efforts - They're just hesitant. I have to show them that the work involved in them learning these new rules will pay off in the fun they have when playing. And if I play my cards right, it means that they get introduced and intrested in an all-new style of play that I can use when we roll back to Star Wars d6 or another old-school game.

ISSUE 3: GNS rears its ugly head.

I'm not the kind of guy who argues one way or another about GMS, I tend to stay out of the discussion- It helped me understand my stake in gaming, but not something for everyone. Well, last night I got a hit in the face when I realized that my best bro in the group (who also has been gaming the longest, with all the Good and Bad connotations that saying this invokes) was basically a die hard unchangable Simulationist. We were doing the "drink beers and talk about gaming" thing for a couple minutes, and he basically said things to the extent of:
* I think the GM's authority to tell the story should be absolute. If players are given "Plot Points" (Fate Points in Conan OGL) and are allowed to retcon the events of the game, the GM's authority is overturned, and you're basically not really roleplaying anymore, just telling some group story.
* Sure, having character issues is good and all, but the GM should still be making an adventure or story for them to go through.
(etc)

Incommensurable? Hmmmm. Maybe. We'll have to see. Everyone else in the group is, well, a mixture of the GNS types (I lean towards Narrativist, another leans towards Gamist, but we can all get our game on), but he's definitely hardcore S.

When he was criticizing (in the traditional meaning of the word, not just "shitting on") TSOY from his first impressions of it, he mentioned that he didn't like the vagueness of some of the abilities, how there should be more better-defined abilities so that there's no ambiguity when you make skill rolls in the story, etc.

I countered with something that I heard on RPGNet in relation to HeroQuest: "I just think it's refreshing to find a game where a character with Leadership of 7 can be just as powerful in the right situation as a character with a Swordfighting of 7. To which he replied, "Yeah, I guess that's cool." So hopefully we'll all be able to get along.

The coolest thing about explaining the rules of TSOY, especially bringing down the pain and using "Sway" to fight against "Scrapping", is that all my players enjoy, or at least have seen a lot of, Buffy and Angel. You can't swing a dead cat in an episode of one of those shows without finding a perfect example situation to use to explain these rules.

Ex: Beth in my group (and also the biggest Buffy/Angel whore in the group)was skeptical about using Sway against Swords. I vaguely recalled a situation in Angel where Wesley (intention: Kill Angel) was attacking Angel (intention: Sway Wesley into putting the sword down) with a sword (because he thought Angel was evil), meanwhile Angel is dodging around furniture, but facing Wesley with his hands open, saying things like, "Hey, it's me!", and "I'm fine, really!", etc. It clicked for her instantly.

But, truth be told, this kind of scene happens a LOT in movies and TV, so it's not hard to find such an example.

Also, having just watched the end of the 7th and shittiest season of Buffy, I made an example of the evil preacher guy knocking Xander into a Broken state, but instead of saying "OK, now I kill Xander" (as we exepect some big bad guy to do in any fantasy game, where it seems the intentions of both sides are "Kill all the guys on the other side"), he instead said, "OK, Now I poke out Xander's eye and let him go".

So, just a word of advice: If your group is generally into Joss Whedon, finding TSOY play examples is easy as hell.

The next game of TSOY, wherein begins the New Fantasy Campaign and uphill battle to get the players comfortable with the game, begins next week.

-Andy

Oh, almost forgot:
ISSUE 4: One of the players is a grad student at Duke and is in the middle of preparing for various Biophysics presos. So he can only make every other session or so.
Solution: Make it so that no other characters have Keys that require that character to be present (Love, Fraternity, Guardian). Tho the reverse is fine.

-Andy

Andy, you klingon bastard, why don't you just start your own thread?

Matt Wilson wrote: Andy, you klingon bastard, why don't you just start your own thread?

Andy Kitkowski wrote: We were doing the "drink beers and talk about gaming" thing for a couple minutes, and he basically said things to the extent of:
* I think the GM's authority to tell the story should be absolute. If players are given "Plot Points" (Fate Points in Conan OGL) and are allowed to retcon the events of the game, the GM's authority is overturned, and you're basically not really roleplaying anymore, just telling some group story.
* Sure, having character issues is good and all, but the GM should still be making an adventure or story for them to go through.
(etc)

Incommensurable? Hmmmm. Maybe. We'll have to see. Everyone else in the group is, well, a mixture of the GNS types (I lean towards Narrativist, another leans towards Gamist, but we can all get our game on), but he's definitely hardcore S.

Hi Andy,

I generally find it's a good idea to explain the rules, but not spend too long talking about attitudes about the game... Try first, discuss later. This way you avoid people's preconceived attitudes and deal with real experiences instead. You can talk about liking or disliking features after trying it, not before.

Chris

Bankuei wrote: You can talk about liking or disliking features after trying it, not before.

Andy, if I can interject--it sounds like you're doing a ton of work for a fairly light game. The HTML version of TSOY is like 60 pages long; it's not some rules-intensive monstrosity like Dungeons & Dragons, where the "core books" total something like 1000 pages or more.

I mean, if you want to work this hard on it, that's cool--but there might be a simpler way.

I GM'd a session TSOY without any "freaky Forge RPG" experience whatsoever, and aside from some minor confusion with Bringing Down the Pain it was exceedingly smooth. During the entire game I was completely unconscious of the GNS Theoretical Hoo-ha; I don't know what that stuff is, it didn't intrude on the game whatsoever. It's an RPG: ya play it.

The rules are pretty darn easy to summarize. "Your character has some skills, each with a numerical rating. Roll 2d6 + skill and try to get 9 or higher. If you want to try harder, spend from the appropriate Pool to get a bonus dice. You can also get some bonus dice from other players if they are interested in your success." The only real use for the rule book is during chargen--and even then, it's only useful for listing various Secrets.

For players who want to know the rules: point them at the Anvilwerks website, and tell them to read the Main Rulebook. Printed out, it's about 30 pages, and can be read in about 10 minutes when they are bored at work, riding the subway, or waiting in line at the DMV. IMO it's absurd for you to print all that stuff out for them... and then wait for them to read it. It's a trivial act on their part.

Regarding character generation: I'd actually do it a little bit differently. I suggest whipping up a scenario, and then providing a list of character concepts with motivations. Like, "Brawny blacksmith who lusts after Lady Winfield" or something.

* Describing the scenario ahead of time helps set the tone, and gives players an idea of what to expect.

* Throwing some concepts out there lets you know what to expect. It's important to suggest motives/keys, so you have an idea of which way these guys will jump when pushed.

* These concepts will suggest certain aptitudes for skill selection, making it easy on players who don't want to be burdened with too many options.

* If necessary you can arrange this to create a Blood Opera as players compete against each other... or you can design the concepts to hang together as a traditional adventuring party.

Of course, no matter what you do, best of luck!

PS. Key of the Foolhardy Hero.
Some people get all the excitement they need from trying a new kind of soup, or going to a new theatrical performance. You're not one of those people. You thrive on challenge and live for adventure. You gain 1 XP whenever you agree to help somebody who needs a stouthearted adventuring type. You gain 2 XP in a scene involving a risk to life, limb, or social status. You gain 5 XP on surviving yet another maddeningly complex entanglement/adventure.