Okay, last year I wrote Dreamscape as part of the 24-hour RPG challenge. Since then, I have invested a lot of time and money into producing a pdf for sale. It is due to go live at RPGNow sometime soon.

Now the problem is that I have just received an email from a company who are also looking to use the name Dreamscape and tell me they have a CCG and RPG planned. They have offered me some artwork to change the name of my RPG.

Well, I don't actually need any more artwork and I'm quite happy with the name, having got the cover completed already.

Should I just give up the name? Should I ask for a better offer to change the name? Should I stick with the name - knowing that my RPG will be out first? Is there a problem with 2 rpgs with the same name? Has anyone any similar experience? Help!

Any suggestions?

Simon W
http://www.geocities.com/dreamscape2020/

Hi Simon,

Point #1: If you really really care about this, talk to a lawyer to learn about your real options. All the points below are trumped by this point.

Point #2: If you have a game and they don't, and if we're not talking about registered trademarks and similar, then they are out of luck. "We have an RPG planned" is a pretty empty statement. Any change you'd make in the game's name is a favor from you to them.

Point #3: The artwork offer is a desperation move on their part, and inspires a little sympathy in me for them, but that's no reason for it to do so for you.

So the real point is that I perceive you to be under no obligation to change your game's name. It would certainly be nice, in my view to the point of unnecessary martyrdom. Although whether it's a reasonable level of niceness is totally up to you.

I can tell you that if someone had contacted me and said, just as I had received the gorgeous Trollbabe cover from Veronica, "Hey, I'm planning an RPG and CCG called 'Trollbabe,' can you change yours," I would have politely informed them No.

Best,
Ron

Thanks Ron for your quick reply.

I might just politely say no on the basis that I can't think of a more suitable alternative.....unless anyone else has any ideas?

Having said that, I'm nearer to ready than they appear to be, so it might be easier for them to change their name (although I doubt it, else they wouldn't be offering me anything).

Technically the name is already in use, even if only available for free.

Hmm, I might have to ask them some more questions first.

Simon W

My take is on product identity- I've seen the game around, know a little of it, so if someone came up with a CCG called Dreamscape and I wasn't aware of this "trade", I'd assume you did it and would be like "Dude, cool.".
Your preperations aside, you also have a product identity with that name. Switching it without valid reason would only confuse your players as well as any other people like myself vaugely familiar with the title then seeing it not only under someone elses banner but a different game as well.

Vampire the Masqurade did it, changing to Vampire the Requiem, but they had an in-story reason for doing so, and did it in such a way as to not alienate anyone already familiar with the title (though at this point that might be hard to do).
I'd have a good reason, a better offer, or something *really* significant. Names say a lot about a title, and I'd say you're lucky to land the first one you want. Final Twilight went through several dozen names before landing on that, so I know the value of a name! ^_^

Simon, I certainly am not qualified to comment on the legal concerns here, but I can't see any reason for you to change your name. In all honesty, I've got an RPG I'm working on that I was planning on calling Dreamscape. Now that I know you're using it I'll have to come up with something else. That's just the way it is...you beat me to the punch. I certainly wouldn't ask you to change your game's name. That would be like running a race, seeing the finish line and realizing that someone was ahead of you, then offering to trade the win for a pair of running shoes.

I would look at it this way: names are like real estate and right now you're sitting on a piece of land that someone else wants. You have the rights to it (apparently, as usual, consult a lawyer), and they appear to know it. While you certainly have no obligation to help them out, you might consider what your asking price is.

Instead of just saying "No" flat out, you might make them an offer that would make it worthwhile to you. If they refuse, then you stay your current happy self. If they take it, then you get something you wanted more and become your future more happy self.

For example, you might ask for a cash value payment, or if you think they're serious and will actually publish, ask for some sort of free advertising "to prevent confusion" (something like a link on their web site's main page and an ad page at the back of every RPG). Or ask for both. Or whatever else you're interested in getting.

(On a similar note, I was letting a domain name expire last year when someone asked me if they could buy it. I threw out a figure of $1000, which I thought was unreasonably high... but they paid it without question. It makes me wonder how much more they might have paid. The point is that some people will put a much higher value on things than you do, but you'll only know if you make the offer.)

PS: If you do make an offer, phrase it in terms of "I will not use the name Dreamscape in exchange for..." If you say something like "I'm giving permission for you to use the name Dreamscape..." then you might get caught up in any potential legal battles if a third party turns out to have actual rights over the name. This is advice I got from a lawyer in the domain transfer case.

Of course, there's also the possibility that the studio that owns the 1984 movie titled Dreamscape may not like the name.

A handy resource for checking out possible trademark issues is the US Patent and Trademark Office's web site. You can see all the trademark registrations, and whaty area they cover.

Hmm, they've changed the interface a bit. Searching for PS2 used to find IBM's trademark for the PS/2 computers and Sony's trademark for Play Station 2. If you search for them independently you can still find both. I bring this up as a good example of how tight the categories are. You will see IBM's trademark is for category US 026 COMPUTERS, and Sony's is for a bunch of categories EXCLUDING US 026 COMPUTERS (but with all sorts of other computer related categories).

A movie trademark may not conflict with a game trademark unless the movie trademark registration claimed games (which they might well do if they were considering the possibility of licensing a game based on the movie).

Frank

Hey, Frank. The website you gave doesn't get any hits on "Dreamscape." Does that mean the trademark has lapsed, or just that the search function isn't that great?

[EDIT: It actually means I just can't read, since I was searching in the wrong place.]

I've been in touchg with the people concerned. We are being amicable about this and they have made a reasonable offer and I'm not so stuck on the name that I can't be moved. However, here are some options (in oder of my own preference) that I'd be grateful for some feedback on

DREAMSPACE
DREAMSPHERE
INTO THE DREAMSCAPE
HUNTERS OF THE DREAMSCAPE
DEMONS & DREAMSCAPES (MORE OF A JOKE REALLY)

Thanks guys for your comments so far
Simon W

Okay, I preface with I AM NOT A LAWYER (I use caps so that if anyone sees me trapped in a burning car they may still try and help). That said, I do use one pretty much constantly in my other life. As such, I have followed all the usual legal guides and mumbo jumbo during development of my games (more on this by request).

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got from both my trademark lawyer and para-legal is to do a simple Google search for the name I want to use and genre I want to do it in. In this case, I did one for [ Dreamscape, game ] and got http://www.google.com/search?q=dreamscape+game&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8.

Out the gate you'll see that the 3rd hit is another game (a CCG) that has been released named Dreamscape, the 5th is a game company using the name, etc.

Now, this is by no means an absolute nix on your potential use of the mark. But then, neither is your use a nix on anyone else doing the same. The only time it will really matter is if it goes to court...and then there's all kinds of really interesting precedents that are brought in. Generally, and loosely, speaking, though, the first one to use and/or file it is the one who gets it...which doesn't look good for you given that there are already people using it. That said, it may not really matter. If you expect this to be a short term IP, you may want to just not worry about it, since you don't expect the property to be around in five years. After all, there's a hundred years worth of precident of people just doing what they want and ignoring or folding to the pressure of potential dispute when the time came.

The other question you might want to ask yourself is "Does it have to be just Dreamscape?" Generally speaking, since so far as I know the term your using is public domain (I've seen it in at least a dozen unrelated and independent contexts), there are a number of ways around multiple usage, and White Wolf's Vampire: TM/TR and Werewolf: TA games are good examples of some (since they couldn't get a trademark for Vampire or Werewolf by themselves). As another good example, Marvel tried to trademark Thor, but had to settle for Mighty Thor instead.

Just some thoughts.

BTW, Dreamscape CCG release was posted 2-21-2005.
This is quite possibly the group that was mentioned, because following the link takes me to a site about a CCG and a link off that to an RPG.

So I *think* someone over there jumped the gun just a teency-weency little bit.

Good luck dude, hope this all works out.

DREAMSPACE
DREAMSPHERE
INTO THE DREAMSCAPE
HUNTERS OF THE DREAMSCAPE
DEMONS & DREAMSCAPES (MORE OF A JOKE REALLY)

Andy,

yeah, ever since I intially wrote it, I wondered whether the game needs the word Dream in it at all. But having scoured the sort of sources you did and many more besides, Dream kinda stuck. It says something about what the game is about, so I like it really.

Simon W

Andy Kitkowski wrote: Does it have to have "Dream" in it?

I too _AM NOT_ a Lawyer, but I am under the impression that there is a significant difference between TradeMark and Copywrite. 'TradeMark' refers to a recognizeable, iconic Logo. Most lawsuits involving TradeMark are 'Infringement', in which an entity asserts that use of a Word, abbreviation, or Sigil within a TradeMark by another Entity would cause "significant confusion in the Marketplace". Copywrite is more general dealing with published works of course.

Having said that: Stick to your Guns, man!!
This is _exactly_ similair to a WWW Domain Name, and (as someone earlier pointed out) you have Staked a Claim on this Gold Mine. This presumes of course that you Have, in fact, actively pursued legal copywrite, and left a train of causality evidencing that fact.

If all else fails and they prove a apriori claim: Demand Cash to cede your rights: settle out of court & you may have $ enough to do a Print Run of a re-named product

May I suggest these alternatives:

Dreamworld
Dreamland
Dreamrealm
Dreamdomain
Dreamscar
Dreamforge
Dreams 'n things (sorry)
Dreamdawn
Dreamhorizon
Dreamquest (ick)
Dreamarch
Nightmare
Dreamhaunt
Dreamsoul
Dreamspirit
Dreamcube

I can think of a dozen more if you want. LMK.

If you do go ahead and use the name I would heartily recommend going on to register your published work and send the requisite copies to the library of congress.

Registration is absolutely not required in order to claim copy right. But it is required in order to pursue legal action against someone violating your copy right. If you wait to register until after a violation occurs you lose the ability to claim legal fees or be awarded putative damages (actual damage only).*

Registering is something of a pain in the ass that ordinarily may not even be worth it for a small publisher...but given that you know there are potential issues right from the start its probably worth your while. If memory serves registration is free apart from a nominal filing fee and having to provide a couple of copies of your best edition to the LoC.


*speaking here of US copyright law.

etherworld wrote: May I suggest these alternatives:

Dreamworld
Dreamland
Dreamrealm
Dreamdomain
Dreamscar
Dreamforge
Dreams 'n things (sorry)
Dreamdawn
Dreamhorizon
Dreamquest (ick)
Dreamarch
Nightmare
Dreamhaunt
Dreamsoul
Dreamspirit
Dreamcube

I can think of a dozen more if you want. LMK.

As for new suggestions, what about "Dreamcatchers"?

The real-world definition for that is an item made by certain Native American tribes to bring good dreams to its owner. If you haven't seen one, they're basically a hoop with a sort of spiderweb of string and beads, often with strings hanging down off the hoop as well.

In a fairly literal sense, your characters are dreamcatchers, so it might fit.

jdagna wrote: As for new suggestions, what about "Dreamcatchers"?

The real-world definition for that is an item made by certain Native American tribes to bring good dreams to its owner. If you haven't seen one, they're basically a hoop with a sort of spiderweb of string and beads, often with strings hanging down off the hoop as well.

In a fairly literal sense, your characters are dreamcatchers, so it might fit.

Hello,

This thread seems to have become a "name my game" interaction, which I'm not sure really helps you much, Simon. Fun as it might be.

Do you want to continue to discuss the actual choice you face - whether to say No to these guys? Or have you come to a conclusion about that?

I'm concerned that the default attraction of the "name my game" playpen might accidentally draw you into making a decision about the real issue without having actually reflected on it first.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: Hello,

This thread seems to have become a "name my game" interaction, which I'm not sure really helps you much, Simon. Fun as it might be.

Do you want to continue to discuss the actual choice you face - whether to say No to these guys? Or have you come to a conclusion about that?

I'm concerned that the default attraction of the "name my game" playpen might accidentally draw you into making a decision about the real issue without having actually reflected on it first.

Best,
Ron

Just for everybodies information Dreamscape is now being renamed

DreamKnights.

Work has started on updating the rules and I hope I can get everything done by the date I originally planned to launch the game at RPGNOW. I won't stress over it though and so DreamKnights may be out a bit later than planned.

Simon W

Simon W wrote: Now the problem is that I have just received an email from a company who are also looking to use the name Dreamscape and tell me they have a CCG and RPG planned.

Yeah, I noticed Adamants game before, which is one of the reasons I wasn't too bothered about changing mine - it would be confusing with 3 rpgs with the same or similar titles.
I guess the difference is that Adamants game has an 's' on the end.

Simon W
http://www.geocities.com/dreamscape2020/