Topic: Star Wars Quest Bionics
Started by: advachiel
Started on: 3/2/2005
Board: HeroQuest
On 3/2/2005 at 2:55pm, advachiel wrote:
Star Wars Quest Bionics
Hi all,
I'm a long time lurker and now it seems, a first time poster!
I've been trying to move my gaming group away from D'n'D and onto Heroquest for some time and Soviets excellent conversion of Star Wars seems to be the way to get them hooked at last. Having looked at the conversion I'd like to post a different way to handle Bionics and see what you all think. To recap, Soviet elected to have Bionics function like a Keyword. Instead, I plan to have Bionics mimic the Animist magic system, as follows:
• Bionics come as Minor or Major modifications.
• Minor Bionic Modifications consist of a single ability and can only be used for automatic augmentations (i.e. a Charm)
• Major Bionic Modifications consist of a number of abilities which can be used as active abilities or as augmentations. (i.e. a Fetish/Practice Spirit).
• You gain More Man Than Machine at a rating equal to your highest Major Bionic Modification rating augmented by all your other Major Bionic Modification ratings.
• Bionics & the Force: More Man Than Machine is subtracted directly from any Force Affinites you may have. If your Force Affnities are reduced to zero (or below) your character loses their connection to the Force entirely. In other words extreme Bionics and the Force don't mix.
• Starting Bionic Trademark characters have:
• 1 Major Bionic Modification with 1 ability at 5M and two at 20.
• 2 Minor Bionic Modifications (i.e. equivalent of Charms) at 15.
• More Man Than Machine at 9M (5M plus two augments of +2 from the other two Major Mod abilities)
• Once play starts the character can have Minor or Major Bionics installed assuming they get hold of the parts and find a bionic surgeon skilled enough to fit them. A Simple Contest is performed pitting the surgeons skill against the rating of the Bionic ability (similar to a Shaman binding a spirit into a charm).
The reasoning behind only having the Major Mods affecting Force abilities is so that Darth Vader, for instance, could have lots of Minor Bionic mods (e.g. Life Support, Reinforced Body, Bionic Arms, Distinctive Breath Sound Generator etc) giving augments only and leaving his ability with the Force untouched. I also felt that a direct subtraction of the More Man Than Machine from the Force affnities works better than treating it as a negative augment as otherwise I could see loads of 6 Million Dollar Jedi all over the place...
I've started putting the gaming notes online here. Please feel free to have a look & let me know what you think. Thanks have to go to the Heroquest site at RandomWiki (as I've used it as the basis for my layout and descriptions of some of the Heroquest nuts & bolts) and of course to Soviet for doing the vast majority of the conversion in the first place.
Cheers,
Paul.
On 3/3/2005 at 9:28pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
Re: Star Wars Quest Bionics
advachiel wrote: You gain More Man Than Machine at a rating equal to your highest Major Bionic Modification rating augmented by all your other Major Bionic Modification ratings.Did you see my comments in the other thread about other ways to handle this? I think there are easier ways that don't involve coming up with new mechanics.
Bionics & the Force: More Man Than Machine is subtracted directly from any Force Affinites you may have. If your Force Affnities are reduced to zero (or below) your character loses their connection to the Force entirely. In other words extreme Bionics and the Force don't mix.How does this match up with Star Wars? The two most powerful users of the Force were also the most bionic. Darth Vader seemed to get more powerful with the dark side as he got more bionic, not less.
If this is a balance feature from Star Wars D20, I'd abandon it and rely instead on bionics being a starting character trade off for Force.
• Once play starts the character can have Minor or Major Bionics installed assuming they get hold of the parts and find a bionic surgeon skilled enough to fit them. A Simple Contest is performed pitting the surgeons skill against the rating of the Bionic ability (similar to a Shaman binding a spirit into a charm).And they pay the three Hero Points, right (just like joining an animist practice)? That's the best limiter on people adding bionics, IMO.
The reasoning behind only having the Major Mods affecting Force abilities is so that Darth Vader, for instance, could have lots of Minor Bionic mods (e.g. Life Support, Reinforced Body, Bionic Arms, Distinctive Breath Sound Generator etc) giving augments only and leaving his ability with the Force untouched.Give another example of a bionic character. I think this is just not a theme of Star Wars. OTOH, I think that all bionics should augment contests to succumb to the dark side...
I also felt that a direct subtraction of the More Man Than Machine from the Force affnities works better than treating it as a negative augment as otherwise I could see loads of 6 Million Dollar Jedi all over the place...What's wrong with that? Assuming that the players have the HP to pay for it?
Put another way, why didn't any of the characters in Star Wars go out and get bionics? Seems to me that the replacement parts never functioned any better than the originals.
Mike
On 3/3/2005 at 10:55pm, soviet wrote:
RE: Re: Star Wars Quest Bionics
advachiel wrote: Having looked at the conversion I'd like to post a different way to handle Bionics and see what you all think. To recap, Soviet elected to have Bionics function like a Keyword. Instead, I plan to have Bionics mimic the Animist magic system.
I found converting bionics a bit of a headache as well, actually.
For a time I was treating it as an affinity, with feats like 'Iron Grip' and 'Punch Really Hard' or whatever, but I decided against it just because I wanted to keep that niche for the Force.
I looked at the rules for animism but, to be honest, I'm not sure I understand them properly! In any event, I wanted to keep the special rules to a minimum as this is our first run at HQ.
Good luck with your campaign!
soviet
On 3/4/2005 at 9:13am, advachiel wrote:
RE: Re: Star Wars Quest Bionics
Mike Holmes wrote:Yes, I have read the other threads discussing bionics/cybernetics and felt that having a relationship to your bionic ability for the purposes of how well you can use said ability added an unnecessary step and wasn't the limiting factor I was looking for in this instance.advachiel wrote: You gain More Man Than Machine at a rating equal to your highest Major Bionic Modification rating augmented by all your other Major Bionic Modification ratings.Did you see my comments in the other thread about other ways to handle this? I think there are easier ways that don't involve coming up with new mechanics.
I wanted More Man Than Machine to be related to the amount of bionic mods a character has, hence linking it to the highest ability etc. I do agree however that there could be easier ways to do this without creating new mechanics. Maybe give the character a free increase in More Man Than Machine with each addional Bionic mod, regardless of type and depending on the actual mod. So a hulking great, obviously robotic pair of bionic arms would increase it more than a replacement pair of natural looking bionic arms. Of course this does leave it with the Narrator & Player to discuss what should happen instead of having a hard & fast rule.
Mike Holmes wrote:Darth Vader I agree is rather bionic, but Yoda too? :o) Only joking, I see what you mean, however, whether Darth gets more powerful the more bionics he has is debatable. It's been established that Anakin was quite possibly the most powerful force wielder the Jedi had ever seen so maybe the bionics didn't diminish his abilities at all. I agree there's a link with the Dark Side & bionics, in that they either don't affect your ability or enhance it.Bionics & the Force: More Man Than Machine is subtracted directly from any Force Affinites you may have. If your Force Affnities are reduced to zero (or below) your character loses their connection to the Force entirely. In other words extreme Bionics and the Force don't mix.How does this match up with Star Wars? The two most powerful users of the Force were also the most bionic. Darth Vader seemed to get more powerful with the dark side as he got more bionic, not less.
OK how's this, your More Man Than Machine acts as a negative augment for all light side of the Force abilties but not for dark side of the Force abilities (or even possibly acts as an augment for dark side abilities). I think that fits quite nicely with the Star Wars theme of the Jedi being pure in mind & body while the Sith prefer the 'easy' options where available, i.e. the dark side is easier to become powerful in (relatively) than the light side and improving yourself via bionics is easier than hitting the gym every day....
Mike Holmes wrote:Hmm, hadn't thought of that. they'd have to pay the HP cost for the actual bionic mod (as per the costs of charms & fetishes). But yes, having them pay 3HP for effectively joining the Bionic world (assuming they hadn't started with the Bionic trademark) is a good idea, thanks.• Once play starts the character can have Minor or Major Bionics installed assuming they get hold of the parts and find a bionic surgeon skilled enough to fit them. A Simple Contest is performed pitting the surgeons skill against the rating of the Bionic ability (similar to a Shaman binding a spirit into a charm).And they pay the three Hero Points, right (just like joining an animist practice)? That's the best limiter on people adding bionics, IMO.
Mike Holmes wrote:The only other character that springs to mind is Lando's aid in Cloud City, you know, the chap with the bionic headband. Now that would be a Major Mod as he's plainly got a bit of robotics attached to his head! I agree that bionics should augment contests to succumb to the dark side, again, good thinking there.The reasoning behind only having the Major Mods affecting Force abilities is so that Darth Vader, for instance, could have lots of Minor Bionic mods (e.g. Life Support, Reinforced Body, Bionic Arms, Distinctive Breath Sound Generator etc) giving augments only and leaving his ability with the Force untouched.Give another example of a bionic character. I think this is just not a theme of Star Wars. OTOH, I think that all bionics should augment contests to succumb to the dark side...
Mike Holmes wrote:Upon reflection this is an unnecessary new mechanic so I'll stick with it being a flaw/augment as mentioned above.I also felt that a direct subtraction of the More Man Than Machine from the Force affnities works better than treating it as a negative augment as otherwise I could see loads of 6 Million Dollar Jedi all over the place...What's wrong with that? Assuming that the players have the HP to pay for it?
Mike Holmes wrote: Put another way, why didn't any of the characters in Star Wars go out and get bionics? Seems to me that the replacement parts never functioned any better than the originals.Quite possibly but then, maybe there's also a huge reluctance to chop of a limb and have it replaced with a bionic one due to the prevalent Jedi philosophies floating around the galaxy - replacing limbs severed by accident (or lightsabres) yes, but voluntary replacement of perfectly working limbs no.
Cheers,
Paul
On 3/4/2005 at 12:38pm, advachiel wrote:
RE: Re: Star Wars Quest Bionics
soviet wrote:advachiel wrote: Having looked at the conversion I'd like to post a different way to handle Bionics and see what you all think. To recap, Soviet elected to have Bionics function like a Keyword. Instead, I plan to have Bionics mimic the Animist magic system.
I found converting bionics a bit of a headache as well, actually.
For a time I was treating it as an affinity, with feats like 'Iron Grip' and 'Punch Really Hard' or whatever, but I decided against it just because I wanted to keep that niche for the Force.
I looked at the rules for animism but, to be honest, I'm not sure I understand them properly! In any event, I wanted to keep the special rules to a minimum as this is our first run at HQ.
Yeah, they can be a bit confusing compared to the fairly straight forward feats/affnities and keywords!
As an aside, do you plan on your characters gaining additional Trademarks once play starts? i.e. a Ship Captain becoming Force Sensisitve or a Jedi owning a ship or either of them getting Bionics. Or was your intention with the Trademarks to be "that's your Trademark and you can't gain another one"? I figure it's more of a case by case basis as characters will no doubt eventually gain an ability higher than the others (which effectively becomes their Defining Trait trademark), likewise it's relatively easy (for the cost of HP) to gain the equivalent of the Retinue or Sidekick Trademarks unless you impose a limit on followers. Anyway, getting a bit off topic but I'd be interested to hear your view.
Good luck with your campaign!
And you with yours! No idea when we'll actually start playing yet but so far two of the PC's have been made up and I'm just waiting on the third to finish his. They're on my website if you fancy stealing them to use as a couple of NPC's for your campaign :-)
Surprisingly none have elected to play Jedi, though one was trying to convince me to let him play a battle droid containing the essence of a Jedi still with full use of the Force....
Cheers,
Paul.
On 3/4/2005 at 6:01pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Re: Star Wars Quest Bionics
advachiel wrote: ...whether Darth gets more powerful the more bionics he has is debatable.I don't mean to suggest that the bionics make him better with the force. Simply that in the only case of massive bionic adjustment for a SW character, he got better at using the Force, rather than worse. So whether or not it's a matter of him overcoming some negative thing, or it having no effect, we don't know. My point is merely that there's never anything made of Force/Bionic interaction in SW. It's just not a SW theme that I'm aware of. You can make it one, if you want. But then you can add on any theme you want. The question is why this one?
If it's just something you want to explore, then by all means.
I agree there's a link with the Dark Side & bionics, in that they either don't affect your ability or enhance it.Actually I don't think that they enhance the dark side either. I think that, generally speaking that bionics and the Force are neutral to each other. What I do think is that the Dark Side is about becoming dehumanized. As such, I'd allow all bionics as penalty augments to any attempt to resist falling to the dark side (which co-incidentally gets you more power).
I think that, generally the dark side is always holding out power for anyone to take - and a lot of it. It's just a question for the character of whether or not to take it.
OK how's this, your More Man Than Machine acts as a negative augment for all light side of the Force abilties but not for dark side of the Force abilities (or even possibly acts as an augment for dark side abilities). I think that fits quite nicely with the Star Wars theme of the Jedi being pure in mind & body while the Sith prefer the 'easy' options where available, i.e. the dark side is easier to become powerful in (relatively) than the light side and improving yourself via bionics is easier than hitting the gym every day....I'd buy that. But, again, I think the simplest thing to do is just to make bionics penalty augments against the character using them. In fact, if you only augment with the largest, this is precisely what your mechanic does. I'd just allow the GM to augment with whichever he likes.
Bionics should, to me, be just as double-edged as anything else. I've pointed out before how Luke's Bionic had provides the augment he needs to resist hating his father, and thus saves the entire rebellion (assuming that he would have survived the destruction of the Death Star to hunt the alliance at the side of the Emperor). I mean, he looks down at it, flexing it, and then changes his whole attitude. How's that for a positive effect!
Basically, I don't see a lot of need for a lot of extra rules about this. You know what themes you want to pursue, and the rules allow you to do it.
Anyhow, only allow players to get bionics as a result of battle damage. This seems to match the setting to me. Always be having any Major or Complete Defeat mean a loss of a limb or something. Loss of a hand is only an injury in a setting where they can just replace it. Then the player has the option of joiing the cybernetic league, or sticking it out sans a hand or something.
Mike
On 3/4/2005 at 9:01pm, soviet wrote:
RE: Re: Star Wars Quest Bionics
advachiel wrote: As an aside, do you plan on your characters gaining additional Trademarks once play starts? i.e. a Ship Captain becoming Force Sensisitve or a Jedi owning a ship or either of them getting Bionics. Or was your intention with the Trademarks to be "that's your Trademark and you can't gain another one"?
Erm... good question. There's no reason not to allow multiple trademarks, and it might be necessary sometimes to reflect character development. Certainly if you look at the films they all have multiple trademarks, as you note on your website. So yeah, why not? I'd probably say it costs 10HP or something like that, although most of them can be just flat-out bought as new abilities or a bunch of new abilities using the normal rules.
I'm running my own game in three trilogies, just like the films - I'll start with the middle, then do the prequels, then do some big-scale sequels. When we get to the final trilogy I was intending to have had a bit of off-screen time pass and let everyone choose a second trademark keyword.
In fact, one of my players was very tempted to choose a bionic arm but went with a retinue in the end. I'm very tempted to give him some kind of 'accident' later in the trilogy to make this wish a reality...
I have four players and this is what they took:
Gweeble: a Rodian Jedi with Force powers, a shady past on Tatooine he would rather forget, a 'stealth' lightsabre with an invisible and silent beam (special item), and a Twi'Lek Jedi mentor called Mun You Co.
Sheridan Heist: a Human scoundrel/pilot, captain of the Corellian freighter The Wraith, owns a semi-robotic suit of armour programmed to get him out of trouble (special item), and pursued by his arch-nemesis, the Imperial fighter pilot called Duke Amorous (!).
Fairuza Nemec: a paranoid Human hacker with a retinue (servant droid, old family bodyguard, and a sister who is a medic), addicted to the stim drug called Flash. His very wealthy family was wiped out by the Imperials for unknown reasons, and he is on the run.
Jaden Voorst: a human former Sith apprentice (!) with Force powers and a double-bladed lightsabre (special item), recently escaped from his mind-controlling master (the evil Darth Mantis) and struggling to resist the lure of the dark side.
Should be a lot of fun!
cheers
soviet