Yup, I don't think the announcement is completely official yet, but I hear it is going up soon.

RPGNow is switching their POD services to go through LuLu.com. This means that your PDFs that you sell through RPGNow.com can be (pretty much) instantly punched over to print versions through LuLu's awesome setup. Plus, RPGNow is building this all around (and inside of) their current store, so print versions of games can get exposed to the market that wants to buy them. Cool, right?

For example:
http://www.lulu.com/rpgnow

I'm stoked about this. It will make it easier for me to get print versions out there for my games, as well as market them in one place. It's like two superheroes combining forces to combat crime... (or something)

Any thoughts?

Peace,
Nathan

Um...honestly, it terrifies me. Unless RPGMall is still printing.
Case in point- I am JUST wrapping up work on a game, still got a bit to go, but I really liked RPGM's 4.25x5.5 size as thats a nice pocket book, and considering what my game is I'd be thrilled with that- its perfect! Copy would cost me almost two bucks, can get away with a price tag of $5, I'm thrilled, can move copies on a "Dude, this is hilarious, check it out" basis (as word of mouth already spreads among my playtesters friends).
Just checked out Lulu prices...$5.57 COST.
Scares me like a 10 year old catholic school girl.

Howdy,

So this is what I wasn't aware of.. so the question is --

Is this new partnership going to change anyone's print-on-demand plans for their products? And how?

And furthermore, how can "indie" publishers leverage some marketing out of this?

Peace,
Nathan

The only real issue I have with lulu is their annoying policy of charging the exact same price regardless of the book's dimensions (and they're the only POD place I've ever found that does it that way - usually a smaller format book is cheaper, even to the extent of still being able to save money even while upping the page count to balance the smaller size). With lulu, a 150 page 6"x9" costs the same amount as a 150 page 8-1/2"x11", making the smaller formats damned expensive for what you're getting. For people doing the "standard" size books it works fine, but folks like me who like the smaller sizes get screwed on the deal.

As far as still being able to get the lower prices, that's still possible at a number of short-run POD places. You just have to buy a chunk of copies at once (actually lulu discounts bulk orders too I believe - though I'm not sure how much). And (at least for the time being) RPGnow says they're willing to warehouse books you send them, which have been printed elsewhere, and still list them in the RPGnow catalog just like the stuff from lulu.

The reason RPGnow is going with lulu is because most of the PDF publishers they work with aren't willing to buy 10 copies of their book at a time. They want (or claim they want anyway - we'll see how many actually jump on board) the zero cost setup and individual copy capability of lulu. Apparently almost no one has been using the RPGmall service.

I'm scouring all three sites and the forums (RPGNow, RPGMall and RPGNow's Lulu page), and I'm not seeing any note of discontinuation...
If this is true, and RPGMall (branch that did RPGN's printing) is still doing the print runs, I'm okay myself.
Has anyone on RPGNow/RPGMall recieved a notice that these print services would be discontinued or was it "Or you can order through Lulu now!"?

The reason RPGnow is going with lulu is because most of the PDF publishers they work with aren't willing to buy 10 copies of their book at a time.

True true.
Hell, I planned on ordering 20 copies right off the bat for myself :D
According to James the old service will be up for a bit yet, and does lamination now apperently.

Wow. Is that an accurate statement or speculation?

daMoose_Neo wrote: Case in point- I am JUST wrapping up work on a game, still got a bit to go, but I really liked RPGM's 4.25x5.5 size as thats a nice pocket book, ... Just checked out Lulu prices...$5.57 COST.

Dog Town is one of those 40 books that has sold on rpgnow. It is a great development for the independent publisher integrating pdf's and pod. The production quality by Lulu is superb, and the set up simple.

Rpgnow is a great supporter of independent publishers and this is is a marriage made in Heaven

Jonathan Ridd
Cold Blooded Games

Hrm. I have an 8.5 x 11 PDF for sale on rpgnow, and a book for sale on Lulu in their half-size (6 x 9, I think). Two different formats, etc. Can they still be married, so to speak? Who would I speak to about this?

Lxndr wrote: Hrm. I have an 8.5 x 11 PDF for sale on rpgnow, and a book for sale on Lulu in their half-size (6 x 9, I think). Two different formats, etc. Can they still be married, so to speak? Who would I speak to about this?

I've been out, broke my arm in a motorcycle accident, and haven't had much of a chance to page through the months of email that accumulated in the interim.

That said, I like the 6x9 size better, and when last I printed through Lulu, I recall there was some sort of advantage for doing so, though perhaps they've changed printers since then. Their site is down so I can't check to see what's changed there.

Thanks, James.

I just went through this whole mess with RPGNow and RPGMall. I am already set up with Lulu on my own. I listed my products with RPGNow, uploading them separately to RPGNow's account (I'm not comfortable with the fact that any other publisher can access my files, and I theirs, BTW). But other than that, the process was quick and painless. Then I enrolled at RPGMall and asked what process I needed to go through to get my books listed.

The first e-mail I received said I needed to send actual hard copies of my book to their warehouse, or order them through RPGNow and have them sent to the warehouse.

Then, I got an e-mail from the owner at RPGNow, telling me that I did NOT need to send books if they were already uploaded for POD at RPGNow.

Then I got another e-mail saying my books were set up wrong, and even once I made the corrections, I would have to send books to the warehouse to get them listed at RPGMall.

Finally, after a string of queries, I got another e-mail from the owner saying that I DID need to send books to the warehouse, because RPGNow and RPGMall are operated as two separate businesses.

So I'm sending copies of my books to RPGMall.

Now working in manufacturing, I know how expensive warehouse space is. So even if RPGMall and RPGNow are being operated as separate entities, it would make financial sense that, if a book is available POD through RPGNow already, that you would NOT want the book taking up shelf space at the warehouse. particularly when you are telling publishers you do not want them sending more than five or ten copies. It has to be an inventory nightmare. POD technology is much cleaner, requires no inventory tracking, and less manpower.

POD should make things more streamline, but at this point it seems RPGNOW/RPGMALL is making it more complicated for themselves than they need to. Of course, as this is all new for them as well I suspect things will get smoother as they work out the bugs.

As far as my experiences with dealing with Lulu directly, I have been very happy with them so far. And they have in the short time I have been working with them already made a lot of positive changes to their format, and are working on more. I think the partnership between Lulu and RPGNow can be a great benefit to everyone involved once the kinks get worked out.

Not sure why you find the need to air this in public... but there was a confusion in what you wanted and we resolved it, no harm in that. The LULU account will be locked to our staff only in April.

As for RPGMall, that's a whole different staff and they pick products off shelves and add them to an order and ship them out. They do not need to deal with LULU and the hassles of making orders or paying 2 shipping charges... it's not the way RPGMall does business.

As you say, things are still new and in flux... it's possible RPGMall will even go away. We'll see.

James

rpghost wrote: Not sure why you find the need to air this in public... but there was a confusion in what you wanted and we resolved it, no harm in that. The LULU account will be locked to our staff only in April.

As for RPGMall, that's a whole different staff and they pick products off shelves and add them to an order and ship them out. They do not need to deal with LULU and the hassles of making orders or paying 2 shipping charges... it's not the way RPGMall does business.

As you say, things are still new and in flux... it's possible RPGMall will even go away. We'll see.

James

'Scuse me, but there is one content moderator in this forum, which is me.

If anyone needs any discussion about what is and isn't correct to be posting here, I'll provide that. Y'all's job is to carry on with the discussion about RPGmall and Lulu. I think this is a tremendous set of opportunities depending on how the principals choose to iron out the details, and I'd like to know more about it.

Thanks,
Ron

Well RPGMall has nothing to do with LULU. RPGMall still uses it's original printer (which now offers lamination too) since they are geared toward 10+ runs. Lulu will not give a price break till over 50 copies and their per copy costs is much higher. So they serve two different needs. RPGNow is using LULU for true no-cost up front delivery of printed books that we also sell in PDF format. If you do not want to sell PDF at all, RPGNow will not sell your book. You must agree to sell PDF and optionally Print at RPGNow. RPGMall will sell Print only, but not unless you send us some copies or we print up 10 of them to have on hand.

RPGNow has some 50,000+ regular customers. RPGMall has a couple thousand. So you know where the sales are going to be coming first. RPGMall, while initially had some intent to fill a market need of an alternate resale channel, no retailers want to buy from us unless we do 50% off and free shipping. So either we have to rework things at RPGMall, Sell the site off, or just close it down. But the way it is now, it's mainally a direct-to-customer outlet for your books if you don't want to bother with a store front yourself.

RPGNow is already selling more POD books then RPGMall... but granted it's a slow pace until the idea/word spreads that we're doing it and our print ads come out over the summer.

What more would you like to know?

James

That's a good summary, James, and especially helpful to those like me who are continually confused about the "mall" vs. the "now." Thanks for posting it.

Best,
Ron

rpghost wrote: Lulu will not give a price break till over 50 copies

while initially had some intent to fill a market need of an alternate resale channel, no retailers want to buy from us unless we do 50% off and free shipping.

...got a 404 on this first post and yet it went through...odd...

I sense confusion.

RETAILERS get a 40% discount, DISTRIBUTORS get a 60% discount.
Thus, for a $10.00 product you sell to the Distributor for $4, and they in turn sell the book to the retailer for $6, who sells it for $10.
Thus you are right and wrong at the same time- right in that the retailer gets the 40/45% discount, wrong in the assumption the distributor buys it at that 55/60%.
So there really is no difference.

Not sure where you're all getting those numbers, but listen to me as I am a retailer who pays these bills every day and know many in the industry who publish through the distribution system.

On average unless you're a big name the distributors want 60% off MSRP. They want you to ship it for free to them. If you're a non-name upstart and doing yet another d20 or don't have a marketing plan/budget or such, you'll be stuck dealing with a fulfillment house to get into the mainstream distribution channel. They (Impressions, Ossuem, etc) will charge you 15-18% more.

So you as a publisher without history, could easily look at getting only 25-30% of the MSRP in your pocket.

Most retailers average about a 47% off MSRP when ordering from distributors. Some large volume retailers can work that down to 50%.

You'll be getting paid for you products 90+ days out too. If you're lucky.

So, RPGMall is actually a very good deal since it was designed to give you 60% of your sale price (not 40 or less). But volume is where it's at and retailers didn't like only 40% off list.

As you state, many retailers are going out of business. So it's not like they're raking in the cash.

James

daMoose_Neo wrote: I sense confusion.

RETAILERS get a 40% discount, DISTRIBUTORS get a 60% discount.
Thus, for a $10.00 product you sell to the Distributor for $4, and they in turn sell the book to the retailer for $6, who sells it for $10.
Thus you are right and wrong at the same time- right in that the retailer gets the 40/45% discount, wrong in the assumption the distributor buys it at that 55/60%.
So there really is no difference.

@_@
Course too, with that, they're still talking about paying you 35%, which isn't a far cry from that 40% thats supposed to be standard. So the math still comes out~

Bardsandsages wrote: There's no confusion. I got e-mails from disiributors. One said they offer 60.2% discount to retailers who prepay, and then they want 10% of the net profit on top of that! Another said they offer 55% off to retailers, and want 5% of the gross take. And did I mention that three of the four wanted me to sign an agreement that held them harmless in the event my inventory is lost or stolen while in their care?