If this is an inappropriate thread, I apologize ahead of time.

I'm just getting back up to speed as a gamer. Don't have a group, just stocking up on the new games that would have kept me in the hobby years ago.

I just ordered "Sorcerer's Soul" and "Sorcerer and Sword." Can't wait to read them and start putting something together. And I can't get The Questing Beast out of my head.

I met some great guys at a local game con -- though a) they're more simulationist; b) I'm going to have to get familiar with the rest of their group; and c) I still don't know if they're gonna' be into these games at all.

So: Is there anyone in the L.A. area who absolutely knows they want to play Sorcerer or TQB? I'll Guide, I'll be a player. But I really want to give them a try.

Thanks,

Christopher

PS Jesse, you're already on the list. ; )

PPS There are, of course, a dozen other wonderful games attached to this site... But there's only so much time. No offense meant to all the other daring designers working so hard around here.

Christopher Kubasik wrote:
PPS There are, of course, a dozen other wonderful games attached to this site... But there's only so much time. No offense meant to all the other daring designers working so hard around here.

Safety tip - once you get into all this Indie stuff, make sure you get together with people who want the same thing you do...

Safety tip - once you get into all this Indie stuff, make sure you get together with people who want the same thing you do...

I myself can enjoy massive spoilage. I've been getting together with Clinton and Yasha for gaming, and also I've got some sporadic friends who are also down for the weird out there indie stuff I keep pulling. Between the stuff you guys keep dropping, my own ideas inspired by that, and the general wackness of the industry, I'm not going to be buying or playing mainstream, perhaps ever again.

On the other hand, I'm going to be moving to Detroit this summer, so I might be heading back to famine times.

As far as looking for good folks, I don't go for gamers. I go for artists and musicians. Enough imagination to play, not hard set into reality to simulate everything, and just fun folks to kick it with.

Chris

Chris,

I think your last point is vital -- and one I find myself strangely reluctant to calmly accept.

Most gamers are still gaming exactly as they do because they are content with the way things are going. (At least content enough.)

The games I've listed above, and so many others around here, require a completely different assumption on the part of the players of what *fun* is. Clearly, people outside the current pool might prove most effective.

But the the thought of soliciting people who aren't already in the hobby raises memories of people looking at you with "WtF?" when you mentioned D&D.

That said, my gorgeous yoga teacher getting her masters in clinical psychology would probably be a terrific bet for a game of either The Questing Beast (easy, fun and most likely moving) and Sorcerer (dark, involved and really exploring the deep shit).

Christopher

Hi folks,

I've generally had the most success with a combined approach of gamer/non-gamer. The typical pattern is to join or set up a group, then one or two of them leave, whereas friends or romantic partners of the remaining members join. Net effect: four or five players, with maybe two from the "original" group (although "original" is not really the right word as not much play, maybe a couple months max, had occurred).

Re: the obviously-continuing saga of Christopher's yoga teacher ... I am perturbed by the danger of crossing professional boundaries, yet strangely aroused. Great, another ethical conundrum.

Best,
Ron

Christopher,

Get the Yoga teacher. Nuff said.

As for other players, I'd also recommend strictly non-gamers. No offense guys (hey, I'm somewhat of a gamer myself) but recruiting people who are 'Tabula Rasa' is more effective in learning new, 'non-geeky' games you wish to run.

As a gamer, I carry a lot of beggage from previous (and sometimes unpleasent) experiences with RPG's. Playing with non-gamer groups opened new horizons for me and for them too. Very few of them mentioned D&D to have any connection with what we were playing. In fact, my gaming groups consist of around 50% female at all times. You wouldn't believe what a chick-magnet Nar is ;)

That's my opinion, anyway.

With respect,

Joe Llama

Christopher,

I have a recommendation on how to identify potential Narrativist players among groups of already existing gamers. My pet theory project is a class of gamers I call Simulationists-By-Habit. These are gamers who say they are into RPGs because they like the idea of an interactive story but they have no real idea about what that REALLY means or how to achieve it. These are people who have Simulationist assumptions and habits so internalized that if you show them Narrativist ideas they still shy away from them and fail to recognize that the suggested techniques and mindsets will actually achieve what they want. These are the people who continue to frustrate themselves about why a good 'story' isn't naturally arrising from their detailed world/scenarios/characters.

A good first indication are people who either keep an in character journal or even better write third-person style stories about their characters. Another good indication along these lines are playes who talk about their characters from an emotional or thematic viewpoint rather then just rambling on about their characters individual actions and exploits.

But the REAL litmus test that hasn't really failed me yet is to ask them a lot of 'Why?' questions durring an actual game. A Simulationist-By-Habit will have absolutely no problem with telling you why they're taking this action or pursuing that plot thread and so on because unconciously they spend most of their time in Author Stance. True Simulationists and Gamists will get defensive and look at you suspiciously, because 'Why' isn't part of their game. Things either are or they aren't, there is no 'Why?' at least on the meta-game level.

Simulationists-By-Habit also seem to be the most flexible concerning what games to play. They're always willing to try something new and different.

I find that simply changing one's GMing techniques alone will tend to alter these player's behaviors. Throw in a solid Narrativist System and I'm sure they'll really begin to shine. They will take to it naturally and will start to do all that 'scary' Narrativist stuff without even realizing it.

Just my observations.

Jesse

Let me quickly add, before some sort of narrative begins about me that I'm not actually a part of... My lovely yoga teacher is looking for a tall surfer, and I... fulfill neither obligation. I'm also at a place in my life where sex as a game of raquet ball just doesn't hold as much appeal for me as it once did (where this change came from I just don't know), and that is exactly where she is right now.

There is, however, a lovely woman in my portrait painting class. I'll be asking her out Thursday. She has a clearly scarred soul. Strangely, someone who's tapped directly into all the crap of being a human being holds a great deal more appeal for me these days than someone who's exerting lots of energy in an effort to skate over being mortal (like my teacher, who because of all her effort is shiny and brilliant, but somehow not quite... Something.)

Master of the Off Thread,

Christopher

Oh! And I had a Narrativist-Session Dream the other night!

I'm with a group of players. It's their first time playing Sorcerer. Regular gamers or not, they're all a bit timid with the character sheets and no certain what the hell they're supposed to do.

I say to one of them, "Well, what's the kicker on your sheet?"

He looks at it. "Oh," he says. "I grab the phone."

And we're off an running. Just like that.

Guess I really want to play.

(That was the end of that part of the dream... I was just so happy to be running a session where the players are throwing curve balls at me... Which is think is one of the essential dynamics of Narrativist gaming... The Guide is as suprised and engaged with keeping up with events as the players.)

I apologize if any of my words implied that RPG's should be used as a seduction tool or part of it. I was trying to show how Nar opened a door for all kinds of people beside us 'geeks', especially female gamers who were somewhat rare in the field (AFAIK). I was (stereotypically) assuming that a Yoga teacher would be more open to new ideas and experiences, more 'spiritual' in a sense, and would consider playing in such games.

As a side note, to any of you who think that role playing is a 'geeky' hobby, I will tell you that I'm constantly surrounded by beautiful female gamers. Not only that, some of us guys (not me) are real 'hunks', body builders and all. It sometimes even surprises me how accepted this hobby is by my local society.

No one around me thinks that RPG's are bad or nerdy. Maybe it's because the way RPG's were presented to them. It seems that a lot of people prefer 'storytelling' or Nar games. When I told them about this hobby, I almost never mentioned D&D or similar games. When I finally did, they would twist their noses in disgust. This happened so many times I already forgot some those instances.

Again, I seem to 'bump' into cases where RPG's are being rejected by both gamers and non-gamers because of the way they are presented. This is clearly a case of bad communication. Come to think of it, if RPG 'propoganda' was being done right, I'd say the number of gamers could even double itself! I really need to work on my article of "how to deliver content".

Back to you Christopher, I really think you should try playing with non-gamers. Put the past behind you and find a fresh group of players that will not only want to play Nar but will also have an experienced gamer to guide them through tough times :)

Of course, if you do find a veteran gamer and identfiy him as 'your kind', by all means recruit him/her. Just ask him a few questions that will uncover his favorite style of gaming ("yeah, I once had a level 60 fighter who could strike down an ancient black dragon with his bare hands. I'd sure like to play him again!").

With respect,

Joe Llama

Joe,

I mentioned my yoga teacher specifically because I though she would be open-minded about such things. (In fact, a couple of weeks ago I described the games to her and she seemed quite intrigued.) I don't think I mistook your meaning -- I was really responding to Ron's comment about the "obviously continuing saga." Certainly I've had a kind of "Romance" with her, full of certain Trials, and thought I'd share what what the status of the saga was at this time.

As for your advice... several people have also suggested it on this thread, and I think the gang may be right. Gamer/non-gamer doesn't really matter if the game is so different that we have no idea if it will appeal to "gamers."

I think I'll call them story games, to distinguish, in my own head, the difference.

When I played in High School, which were the happy days of RPGs for me, we were mixed female/male, and weren't at all geek-stereotypes. When I read posts on the internet about what "gamers" are like, the ratio of men to women and so forth, I'm always a bit surprised. It's not at all like my first experinces with the hobby at all.

I can safely say that since leaving high school I haven't really played with "my kind". That, as Ron suggests in the GNS tome, is one of the problems people have had with this as a hobby--we keep playing with the people we don't mean to be playing with, not realizing we're all playing at cross purposes.

All I've got to add is that knowledge doesn't always make you happy. I was a disattisfied gamer, and got into a new "traditional" group at the same time I got into all this indie stuff. Now I knew what was wrong (at least for me) which made it worse. I now understand why people would say that no gaming is better than bad (or at least gaming you really don't like) gaming.

I knew there was a thread around here in which Christopher's concerns had been discussed already ...

Right here

Best,
Ron

Bankuei wrote:
On the other hand, I'm going to be moving to Detroit this summer, so I might be heading back to famine times.