Topic: To read or not to read?
Started by: dysjunct
Started on: 3/24/2005
Board: Publishing
On 3/24/2005 at 9:16am, dysjunct wrote:
To read or not to read?
So, for the past several weeks I've been bitten by the "get-off-your-@$$-and-design-an-RPG" bug, and have been diligently putting things through my mental centrifuge and seeing what sticks.
However, as I've been doing this, I've also been paying a lot more attention to this forum and indie games in particular -- not mining for ideas, but rather just trying to get a better understanding of the process so I don't end up spinning my wheels. And, well, I'll be damned if it doesn't seem like every time I turn around, someone is developing/has developed systems or settings that are eerily similar to my pet project in one way or another. Sometimes in multiple ways.
I realize that this is, to a large extent, a result of the RPG paradigm. There's only so many ways one can address narrative structure and conflict resolution, or for that matter roll dice. I don't think this is necessarily bad or good, although I certainly don't want novelty for its own sake.
My question is: Do you consider it helpful to expose yourself to other games during the design process, or not? By exposing yourself to other ideas, do you risk contaminating your own, or is it worth the opportunity to veer away from ground which has already been trod? Or should one work feverishly in the confines of one's personal dungeon, in order to preserve the shimmering purity of unsullied design -- so that, upon unveiling, one can rest in the knowledge that despite similarities, the effort is yours and yours alone?
Thoughts?
On 3/24/2005 at 9:29am, matthijs wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
I think you should probably keep reading, and keep designing. If you don't read what's going on, it's easy to make the same mistakes others have made before you. Even if you read about games that are similar to yours, chances are 1) they'll end up very different from your game after playtest, and 2) they might not get published after all.
On 3/24/2005 at 1:18pm, Troy_Costisick wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
Heya,
My question is: Do you consider it helpful to expose yourself to other games during the design process, or not? By exposing yourself to other ideas, do you risk contaminating your own, or is it worth the opportunity to veer away from ground which has already been trod? Or should one work feverishly in the confines of one's personal dungeon, in order to preserve the shimmering purity of unsullied design -- so that, upon unveiling, one can rest in the knowledge that despite similarities, the effort is yours and yours alone?
-You absolutely must read other games! You definately want to expose yourself as much as possible to get a good handle on the many different styles and mechanics of other games. Not doing so risks redundancy of another game, a "pure" but incomplete design, a failure to grasp the needs of a diverse player base, and so on.
-Take a look at the indepdendant game forums on this site. Look at the names of the games that have their own forums and consider purchasing several to read and research. Also, I'd highly recomend games like GURPS, Rolemaster, Noblis, and Ars Magica. But those are just a few I happen to like.
-In short, definately read and research other games. And, Ron's articles on this site.
-Peace,
--Troy
On 3/24/2005 at 2:05pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
Hello,
I'm an advocate for the idea that more knowledge is better than less. I also suggest that you consider yourself very much in the research phase of R&D, rather than the development phase.
You might find these older threads to be interesting reading:
Mike's standard rant #1: Designers! Know your hobby! (especially)
Concepts are a dime a dozen (secondary, but helpful too)
Best,
Ron
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 5564
Topic 7778
On 3/24/2005 at 2:50pm, Andy Kitkowski wrote:
Re: To read or not to read?
dysjunct wrote: However, as I've been doing this, I've also been paying a lot more attention to this forum and indie games in particular -- not mining for ideas, but rather just trying to get a better understanding of the process so I don't end up spinning my wheels. And, well, I'll be damned if it doesn't seem like every time I turn around, someone is developing/has developed systems or settings that are eerily similar to my pet project in one way or another.
Hey man, I was in the same state as you for a while. It can be... what's the word... "impotence inducing"?
Take Ron's advice to heart- Think of yourself doing R&D. But if you really have the bug, and think that you have enough to work with, do not delay from putting pen to paper and hammering out your game. You can always use Indie Game Design to throw your drafts on for critique and polishing. Don't let "Achieving the best possible iteration of your idea into rules as humanly possible" hamstring you from actually getting down to the dirt and grime of writing out your game.
Plus, not every game needs to have "The latest, hottest, best-thought-out mechanics". For an example of this, I point a finger to Rafael Chandler's DREAD: The First Book of Pandemonium. The game is simple, has many (comparitively) flaws or broken/unexplained rules ("Can I use "Soldier" for Combat rolls?"), many "See Page X" (where Page X has nothing of the sort on it) boffs, and really treads no new ground in terms of rules... but it is a fucking blast to play, and absolutely one of my favorite Top Five games*.
In the end, Research is great... but don't let it get in the way of you actually producing your game. A lot of people end up giving up, being overrun with data, or being caught up so much in what's going on around them that they never want to leave the safety of the Research Phase. Don't let that be you. :-)
-Andy
ps- If you want to try your hand at design without a huge amount of commitment, check out the 24 Hour RPG Project -> www.24hourrpg.com . It may be right up your alley.
*Rafael makes up for it by being one of the best horror fiction writers I have ever read. DREAD was almost a vehicle for his writing.
On 3/24/2005 at 6:23pm, jdagna wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
Two pices of advice:
1) Keep reading AND keep writing. You cannot create in a vacuum.
2) Finish your first game and throw it away. No one creates their masterpiece on their first try, but everyone is tempted to think they did.
I would strongly urge you to consider your current game concept as a trial and error sort of experiment. Do write it and do make it the best you can, but do so with the perspective of a kindergartner doing finger-painting - it's just a learning experience, and should be viewed as one of many along the road to mastery.
And there are things that actually finishing a game will teach you that you can't learn in any other way. Testing individual mechanics or theorizing about components have their place, but you can't understand the whole process of creating an RPG until you create something you can call finished. I can't specifically articulate what you'll learn (and everyone may learn something different), but once its done and you can step back from it, you'll probably notice a definite shift in perspective and understanding about the process. I know I felt it, and I've worked with several people who had the same revelation.
On 3/24/2005 at 7:24pm, Andy Kitkowski wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
jdagna wrote: 2) Finish your first game and throw it away. No one creates their masterpiece on their first try, but everyone is tempted to think they did.
Brilliant.
I've worked on other creative projects and the above is pretty much the lay of things in those realms, so I'm willing to bet that it applies to game design as well.
Now, some folks take that first design and, without publishing it, playtest it and playtest it and refine it until it resembles a Whole New Game (points finger at Sorcerer), but it's pretty much the same deal.
On 3/25/2005 at 12:10am, Solly Brown wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
Justin,
You've just said it all, you're the wise man sitting on top of the mountain.
Seriously I agree with you 100%. It is exactly like that.
Jonathan Ridd
Cold Blooded Games
Dog Town: Pure Punk Role Playing
On 3/29/2005 at 10:37pm, abzu wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
if you're looking to become a good game designer, not just hacks like the rest of us, you might consider actually getting out and playing a lot of games. RPG rules are interesting to read, but don't often make sense until you actually sit down and play them.
-L
On 4/19/2005 at 2:41am, paulkdad wrote:
Three quick points...
(One) Don't be shy about mining for ideas anywhere you find them. You can bet the people who wrote the games you're looking at grabbed their ideas from somewhere. So, you'll make a nice list of "references" for your preface, and if anyone looks at these references, they'll find more references. It's all derivative (that's postmodernism, I guess)... don't worry about it.
(Two) Don't get attached to anything. You may think you've got the perfect conflict resolution system, and by the time you get everything else worked out you realize that it just doesn't fit. I find that it's a lot like working on a drawing... I have to be willing to wipe out anything that doesn't work with the other parts. The fact that I spent time working on those areas is only relevant because I learned something while doing it.
(Three) Tools are your friend... choose them wisely. As a visual artist, I can tell you that the tools you use can (and probably will) have a tremendous impact on the final product. Part of the R&D you are doing is finding the tools that hinder your creative process the least. For me, these tools are a digital voice recorder (because my mind is like a sieve) and Inspiration software (because I have to organize things visually). You'll have different tools, but find the ones that work for you.
Hey, good luck. I wish you the best. If any of this doesn't fit, please ignore it.
On 4/28/2005 at 8:51pm, MatrixGamer wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
We live in a social world. If you go into a cave and design - at the end of the day you want to come back to the world. So why not stay out in the light and enjoy company?
The similarity between games is that zeitgheist thing. Darwin had it happen to him. I imagine someone else would have come up with the therory of reletivity if Einstein hadn't. Never take that stuff personal.
Say when you are out in the sunlight of the Indie game community, you come across a game that flips your switch. If it compells you then you might join that bad wagon as an "Evangalist". Maybe it inspires new ideas for your game. Whatever happens, creativity has always been fed by community rather than isolation.
When I started doing Matrix Game there literally was nothing like them in gaming. I was out in the wilderness because no one would let me in the house. Had I not had compulsiveness and obsession on my side I'd have given up. Now there are a number of games that do similar things to mine. We all came to this from different direction and the increase in the community those who favor powerful players and weak or absent GMs only helps us all.
So please stay connected. It will not only help you make a better game it will also give you the contacts to spread the word about it.
Chris Engle
Hamster Press
On 4/28/2005 at 8:59pm, killacozzy wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
Although I myself check out every other game I can get my hands on, this question reminds me of Star Wars score composer John Williams, who (if I remember correctly) doesn't listen to other music, including his own, whilst creating a piece or pieces. I wonder if enough identifiable traits from certain games integrated in my own might make the project weak in its own lack of substance.
On 4/29/2005 at 10:49am, philreed wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
jdagna wrote: 2) Finish your first game and throw it away. No one creates their masterpiece on their first try, but everyone is tempted to think they did.
Or 3,217th try. :)
I'll get behind this concept -- and not just with new games but anything you write/create. I frequently spend a day writing 5,000 words . . . and then spend thirty seconds the next morning deleting those 5,000 words.
On 4/29/2005 at 10:51am, philreed wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
abzu wrote: if you're looking to become a good game designer, not just hacks like the rest of us, you might consider actually getting out and playing a lot of games. RPG rules are interesting to read, but don't often make sense until you actually sit down and play them.
And I'd say don't just play RPGs. Playing various card games, board games, and computer games can also help when writing RPGs and supplements.
On 4/29/2005 at 12:29pm, jdagna wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
killacozzy wrote: Although I myself check out every other game I can get my hands on, this question reminds me of Star Wars score composer John Williams, who (if I remember correctly) doesn't listen to other music, including his own, whilst creating a piece or pieces. I wonder if enough identifiable traits from certain games integrated in my own might make the project weak in its own lack of substance.
I don't think John Williams is a very good example for this, however. He's had a very long career already and may eventually be remembered among the likes of Mozart and Beethoven, though it's a little premature to say for sure. You can bet that he spent a lot of time listening to and studying other people's music while he was still developing his own skills. (In fact, if you pay attention to soundtracks in general, you'll notice elements in many pre-Star Wars movies by other composers that get used in Star Wars).
This is part of why I encourage people to toss out their first game and not take it too seriously. It's just a learning experience. Certainly Star Wars was not William's first composition, but darned if I've heard of the earlier ones.
On 4/29/2005 at 12:48pm, MatrixGamer wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
Don't throw out your old games. Make a hard copy and stick them in a box or note book. Periodically look at it and it will inspire you anew. Also you'll find that ideas that didn't work at that time may work later.
I keep a note book with me where ever I go. When I get an idea I jot it down. Some of those ideas are in my game now, others (many) aren't. Note books like this show your thought process during development. If you ever have to go to court over your games they are great evidence to show your influences and independence of influence.
Chris Engle
Hamster Press
On 4/30/2005 at 8:14pm, paulkdad wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
Don't throw out your old games. Make a hard copy and stick them in a box or note book. Periodically look at it and it will inspire you anew. Also you'll find that ideas that didn't work at that time may work later.
Right. It'd be better to say be prepared to shelve your first (or any other) game... but don't automatically assume that's what you're going to do. You may be one of those people who has one good game in him, and who gets it right the first time (it happens all the time with novelists). Don't throw out a good game just because you think it's a rule that all first games are garbage.
I keep a note book with me where ever I go. When I get an idea I jot it down.
I did this, but found notebooks (even small ones) "clunky". I often get ideas when I'm driving, which is downright dangerous. That's why I switched to the DVR (digital voice recorder). It's also handier when reading another game, because I don't have to juggle two books at once. I do have to transcribe before I get more than thirty notes, though, or it becomes a burden.
No one creates their masterpiece on their first try...
And no one who is intent on making a masterpiece ever creates one. Artists, writers, composers, etc., just do what they do; history decides whether or not it's a masterpiece.
On 5/1/2005 at 3:33am, MatrixGamer wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
paulkdad wrote: I did this, but found notebooks (even small ones) "clunky". I often get ideas when I'm driving, which is downright dangerous. That's why I switched to the DVR (digital voice recorder).
Do you combine this with voice recognition programing? I find I can scane written material so much faster than listen to it. Books can be clunky but I'm used to it. I dictate at work though and am looking forward to the time when I can do this reliably for writing. Someone told me they are up to 90% accuracy now which is pretty good.
The nice thing about books is they store on the book shelf well and are pretty durable. Recording and hardcopies (unless well bound) are like mandallas - ephemeral.
Chris Engle
Hamster Press
On 5/1/2005 at 3:00pm, paulkdad wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
Do you combine this with voice recognition programing?
Not yet. Transcription is easy, though, for a couple of reasons. First, the DVR lets me review every note individually, in any order, and delete them when I'm done (far superior to tape recorders). Second, I use this nifty little thought-mapping program called Inspiration to organize my notes. Each note becomes a separate text box, making it a snap to transcribe. I organize different topics using colors, and print off a hard copy (thirty notes can be crammed on a single page) when I'm done. This typically takes about 2x the number of minutes of notes I'm transcribing. When I'm done, the DVR is empty, and I'm ready to start again.
The nice thing about books is they store on the book shelf well and are pretty durable.
And another nice thing about them is that you can draw in them too. This is the only drawback I've found to the DVR/Inspiration system: it eliminates everything but the words.
I guess it all comes down to how long you can hold a thought in your head while doing something else. For me, that isn't very long. I eventually got frustrated with feeling like I was going through the same steps over and over again. These days, whenever I'm reading RPG stuff my DVR is in my pocket and ready to go.
On 5/2/2005 at 2:45am, MatrixGamer wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
To bring this back to the topic of reading or not reading other people's work - this comes back to how you organize your thoughts. Can you maintain an independent line of thinking in the face of alternate voices? How you go about meditaions matters - it is a discipline.
Rene Descarte started his work meditating in an oven in Germany (No doubt trying to stay warm during the 30 years War.) Later he did it in bed from which rose very late. Sadly my little money/job addiction precludes this method. Consequently I've followed the path used by other Enlightenment thinkers - keeping a journal. I write down thoughts, make diagrams - plan out flow charts, maps, even doodles to clear my head. Because I'm writing them I can let them go. I don't automatically review them for content but instead allow the ideas to bubble and digest. I know that my mind is obsessive so thought will repeat no matter what I do - so the task in as much to let go of thoughts as it is to keep them.
This idea of using a DVR (especially if it could be typed out by a voice recognition program) is a new model for thinking. I'm not certain how it would work. I suspect it would not calm my obsessive mind so it might not be a good fit with my thinking style. There are many styles though.
When you think about reading other games look at how it affects your thinking. Self awareness will help you increase your efficency in using your brain. If you have a bad memory then constant review (which I think the DRV would yield) might be real useful.
This might be a worthwhile thread of its own - Namely how people roganize thoughts and pursue their creativity. I'm certain it has been looked at before but there is always a new cadre of people joining the Forge who might benifit from this kind of "Class."
I'll hold off on starting such a topic to give Ron a chance to tell me if he thinks it is a good use of forum space.
Chris Engle
Hamster Press
On 5/2/2005 at 5:01am, paulkdad wrote:
RE: To read or not to read?
This might be a worthwhile thread of its own - Namely how people organize thoughts and pursue their creativity.
It might. But I'd be much more interested in the tools people use to accomplish specific goals. And this is certainly relevant to the "to read or not to read" question. When you read, so you use any tools to help you apply what you have learned?
How you go about meditaions matters - it is a discipline.
Actually, one of the concepts that has most influenced my game design came from a book on meditation. It is the concept of "odious rules". An odious rule is any unnecessary rule you apply to make your task more difficult than it has to be. Of course, the author was applying it to meditation, but I think it works wonderfully for game design. :^)