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Topic: Exploratory D&D
Started by: Matt Gwinn
Started on: 2/25/2002
Board: Actual Play


On 2/25/2002 at 6:34pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
Exploratory D&D

Well, I ran my new D&D 3E campaign on saturday night and things didn't go quite like I had hoped.

The main problems was that I wanted the players to concentrate on their own character's story along with the overall story. I had the players write out backgrounds for their characters and everyone seemed pretty happy with their characters and fealt a connection with them.

Well, I started the session giving each player a scene with their character. Most of the players really enjoyed being able to do stuff that was centered on their character. The problem was that when I was running a scene for one player the other players could care less about that player's story and got bored (but they seemed pretty interested when it came to their turn).

At first I thought that it just wasn't going to work out and that they weren't into character exploration, but later on a few of the players suggested that we run their individual stuff over email or ICQ instead of on Saturdays when everyone is together. We came to the conclusion that having six players left too much time between a character's scenes.

I am wondering how I can get everyone interested in each other's personal stories? I have plans to tie all of their personal stories into the "whole" story, but if I can't get everyone interested in what the other players are doing maybe I'm just wasting my time.

Things seamed to flow much smoother when everyone was together fighting mosters (which I reluctantly resorted to), but according to the survey I had the players fill out, that is the least interesting part of the game for them.

Am I doing something wrong or is 6 players and 1 DM too many people for this type of campaign? or maybe they're just lieing to me

,Matt

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On 2/25/2002 at 6:54pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Well this would depend on the kind of game you're envisioning playing and how tightly scripted the unique scenes are. But one method thats been used with great success in a variety of games is to make the other players participants in the other player's scene.

In many D&D games when the party would split up I'd have then non present players run the "bad guys" for the inevitable monster encounter. This worked really well, and the other players were far nastier to each other than I would have been.

Also if you don't already have an agenda for certain scenes letting the other players run key NPCs can work, especially if the scene is a player initiated one. If player A wants an audience with the king to ask for a boon let player B be the king, and player C be a royal advisor (one who is known to not really like the party anyway), and player D be the King's daughter who might be convinced to help...I've run scenes like this in even the most old school games (I guess you could call it stealth player authority because none of us figured we were doing anything unique) and often times the DM can just sit back and relax and watch the players entertain each other.

Of course Ars Magica formalized the troupe concept. Ultimately if the individual sessions are too tight to allow other players to scramble them up with their involvement, let the other players roll up a cast of "supporting characters" and side kicks to use while the spot light is on one of the primaries. I've done this before in D&D too when 1 player would repeatedly want to go off on "Theives Guild" business. I eventually had all the other players roll up minor theives and thugs of the guild so they could all participate in robbing the rich wizard's tower.

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On 2/25/2002 at 6:55pm, Paul Czege wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Hey Matt,

I don't think the issue is the amount of time between a character's scenes. Read my post here.

Paul

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On 2/25/2002 at 7:09pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

In many D&D games when the party would split up I'd have then non present players run the "bad guys" for the inevitable monster encounter. This worked really well, and the other players were far nastier to each other than I would have been.

Also if you don't already have an agenda for certain scenes letting the other players run key NPCs can work, especially if the scene is a player initiated one.


I really like this idea. There are quite a few NPCs that the players will want to interact with that can easily be played by other players without compromising the story. I will discuss the option with everyone and see how they feel about it.

I don't think the issue is the amount of time between a character's scenes.

Ok, I read you post and now realize it's all my fault. how do I go about fixing the probelm? Valamir's suggestion solves the boedom problem, but is there any way to get the players interested in each other's stories? I know when we played sorcerer and The Pool I was pretty interested in everyone's stories even when they had no bearing on my own. is that just me or was it because of some aspect of how the game was run?

,Matt

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On 2/25/2002 at 7:41pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Matt,

What's wrong with the players' suggestion that you guys do most of the individual/Exploratory stuff on-line? Character Exploration focused play sets the internal experience as the priority, and it strikes me that the suggestion is valid, based on the goals you all have agreed upon.

In other words, from this perspective, you all have to "play together" because the characters are together in the imaginary game-space, which requires the real people to be interacting with one another. When the characters aren't together, then the players are just as well off not being in the same room.

There is no way to make the players interested in one another's characters. They have to do that, in both directions, and for that to happen, they have to want to do it.

I guess I'm saying you can't have it both ways. If the goal is to "feel one's character," then yes, waiting while someone else gets the necessary input to do this is boring, and you guys should take some proportion of this activity on-line, and do "characters are together" material in face-to-face play. If the goal is to "entertain one another via our characters," in a thematic way, then deliberate and explicit metagame interactions about that are necessary (ie Narrativist play).

My impression was that you were playing mainly toward the first priority (Simulationist/Character). Again, if so, then I agree with the on-line solution, and suggest putting the "get everyone interested in one another's characters" idea aside.

Best,
Ron

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On 2/25/2002 at 9:06pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

What's wrong with the players' suggestion that you guys do most of the individual/Exploratory stuff on-line?


I don't have much of a problem with doing that aside from time constraints. In essence what will end up happening is I will move from running one game on Saturday's to running 1 game on Saturday and 6 more throughout the week. Add prep time to that and I dont think I'll be able to keep up. I've already spent too much time on prep to begin with.

In other words, from this perspective, you all have to "play together" because the characters are together in the imaginary game-space, which requires the real people to be interacting with one another. When the characters aren't together, then the players are just as well off not being in the same room.


I don't think that's the case at all, but since I rarely disagree with you I think we may be missing something. I don't intend for the game to consist of each character simply taking his turn doing his own thing. The characters all know each other and all have aspects of their lives that have a bearing on the others. They need to do things together in order to reach the climax of the story. I am simply (or not so simply) trying to establish a story that focuses not on the group saving the day, but a group of "individuals" saving the day together.

If you already realized this I guess I should point out why I disagree with what you stated.

I feel that players should have a desire to maintain an interest in what is happening with the other characters especially when it will have a bearing on them later on (and it will). Just because their charcater's are not present doesn't mean it's irrelivant to the story. It's like suggesting that a person read a book and skip all the parts that don't include their favorite character.

My desire to have each character establish himself as an individual is an attempt to enhance the overall enjoyment of the entire story not just the individual characters' stories.

Maybe it's just not possible to obtain what I'm looking for. Is it impossible to focus on individual characters AND the overall story at the same time?
Am I stuck choosing between a well developed story and well developed characters?

There is no way to make the players interested in one another's characters. They have to do that, in both directions, and for that to happen, they have to want to do it.


I think if the characters are interesting enough their stories should be able to attract the interest of the other players. I agree that if you don't want to be interested in someone else's character there is no way to make you, but isn't a general interest in the other players part of the social contract?

I realize that if a character is doing something that has no bearing on anyone else at any time then it serves no purpose in a group setting, but I don't intend to run my campaign that way. If Joe the theif wants to go rob a house in the middle of the night you can bet the owner of that house will play some role in the story somewhere down the line. I've already established how each NPC the players created ties in to the story. The plot isn't so set in stone that I can't adjust it as time goes along. I may be a simulationist, but I'm not so rigid in my GMing that I won't do what's best for the story.

,Matt

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On 2/25/2002 at 9:35pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Hi Matt,

Well, let's hold on one minute here ...

"Doing things so they'll be best for the story," given that the GM is steward of the story, is Simulationist (of a given sort).

But that's GNS talk, and we're really talking about concrete play. So I'll stick with that.

It seems to me that the question goes like this. If you're actually playing, and running a scene, and XYZ is happening with someone's character, how can the other players be shown that what is happening is important to their characters?

1) Utilize NPCs and events to "cut across" characters, including secondary or truly irrelevant details. If character A talks to the milkmaid, have the milkmaid walk through the room during character B's scene, for no reason. If character B casts a spell, have someone gossip about it during character C's scene.

2) Some of the effects described in #1 will, of course, not be irrelevant at all. Think of the most important reactions of NPCs (like the shopkeeper you mentioned) - and have aspects or details of their reactions appear nearly continuously through the scenes of different characters, as background if not centrally.

3) Go for the spectacular - what can each character "do"? Provide the most challenging, interesting opponent or problem for that character, playing specifically to his or her strengths.

4) Most importantly, don't waste time. Learn that system cold and fly dazzlingly fast through dice rolls, modifiers, movement rates, and terrain description. Use a dry-erase board for set pieces, don't say "um," point to a player and demand response, and move to someone else if they're not quick enough.

All of the above were my most potent weapons as an Illusionist Champions GM. #1 became a Narrativist tool later, although used in a different way.

Best,
Ron

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On 2/26/2002 at 4:42am, Le Joueur wrote:
This is Sounding a Little Too Specific...

All the above advice is sound and good, if it applies at the road-surface level. To me it sounds like a lot of assumptions are being made that I personally can't see. Normally, I wouldn't put something like this up, because of a strict, 'walk the walk' policy, so....

Basically? Get the other players involved. I don't really care how, just stop trying to look at it in terms of getting the players involved in the other character's stories, let that happen naturally (the only way it'll ever happen anyway, you can't force it).

I do it basically in one of three ways. The first, and possibly hardest, is captivating presentation; just be a good 'storyteller' and have your words 'keep' them. (I said it wasn't easy, but I usually depend on pacing and 'when all else fails run an action scene.') The second is the obvious, 'have them play the other characters in those scenes' sort of thing.

The last has to do with a technique I am developing for Scattershot called 'Exposure.' Whenever I see a character write-up, in whatever game system and playing mode, I look for Exposure. I guess the simplest way to describe Exposure is anything the player is unconsciously (or consciously) 'throwing out' character hooks with. What 'counts' as Exposure varies from playing style to playing style, from GNS mode to GNS mode, but it must alway serve the style, mode, or whatever you play.

If a player takes a near superhuman rating and has an 'experienced' character, I take it that there will either be some kind of subtle reputation or something that will draw special note from all present whenever used. If a player puts anything into their history, I expect to play on it at least referentially. This all seems part and parcel with the preliminary stuff you've already done.

What the technique of Exposure does is make the specific 'hooks' more explicit in your thinking. These are the strings that you have to bring into other player's personal character stories. If one player's character is interested in finding something out, lay some of the clues out in another's 'personal' time, even though they can't use this knowledge directly, it will most likely get their attention. You know, if one is 'looking for the Maltese Falcon,' simply give it to a different, yet completely unknowing, character; just watch how closely the first player attends the second's character's story.

Some forms of Exposure also qualify as weaknesses for the character; be exceptionally careful using these. Constantly casually throwing others' characters in jeopardy is poor play. Revealing these weaknesses in play centered on another player's character becomes a tantalizing (and hopefully empty) threat that will also get their player's attention.

The real trick with Exposure is becoming conversant with things a player doesn't realize they have as Exposure in their character and not overdoing it. Both are very subtle, both should remain so. What Exposure does for you here is it gives you 'threads' to pull into a story they appear unrelated to that will result in interest on the part of the other players (whose characters the 'threads' are 'attached' to).

Before I forget, Exposure works both ways. It comes from the personal stories for the characters and is used to fuel those stories, and it also lets you 'attach' characters together in a 'destined to work together' or 'small world' sort of way.

Fang Langford
(Who apologizes if this is hard to follow, I've had a horrid influenza for five days and the meds make the world spin and spin and spin.)

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On 2/26/2002 at 2:40pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

1) Utilize NPCs and events to "cut across" characters, including secondary or truly irrelevant details. If character A talks to the milkmaid, have the milkmaid walk through the room during character B's scene, for no reason. If character B casts a spell, have someone gossip about it during character C's scene.

2) Some of the effects described in #1 will, of course, not be irrelevant at all. Think of the most important reactions of NPCs (like the shopkeeper you mentioned) - and have aspects or details of their reactions appear nearly continuously through the scenes of different characters, as background if not centrally.


Those are all great ideas Ron, and stuff I've already started to do. One example is that the Innkeeper that is housing the party's Bard has hired the party's fighter to retrieve the head of the dead dragon so he can mount it in his Inn. This eventually led to him recruiting the rest of the PCs to help. He then proceeded to lie to them about the price, but the bard knows he's lieing because she's friends with the innkeeper and was there when he came up with the idea to hire someone.

So far we have only had one session and criss-crossing all the NPCs is something that I'm in the process to doing, but I'm still in the introductory phase of the campaign.

Things should flesh out a little better next week. I think part of the problem on saturday was that one player hadn't slept in 2 days and was cranky and tired, another had spilled boiling water on her hand that morning and was hopped up on morphine and vicadin. One player hadn't completed 80% of the pregame stuff I had asked for which left me somewhat unprepared in regard to his character. Another was unfamiliar with his own story because he had someone else write his character background. Of course he failed to mention that until halfway through the session around the same time he enlightened everyone that his character was evil despite the fact that his background neither stated or implied that).

I think once everyone is healthy things might work out better. Then again, maybe my group is just too disfunctional.

,Matt

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On 2/26/2002 at 3:03pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Fang Wrote

I do it basically in one of three ways. The first, and possibly hardest, is captivating presentation; just be a good 'storyteller' and have your words 'keep' them. (I said it wasn't easy, but I usually depend on pacing and 'when all else fails run an action scene.') The second is the obvious, 'have them play the other characters in those scenes' sort of thing.


Those are all things I'm working on. Throwing in combat always tend to grab attention, as does sex. Everyone seemed pretty interested when the party druid (neutral evil half orc with the 4 charisma) slipped the party's good cleric a love potion and proceeded to take him to her room and eventually get pregnant by him. In his personal story he was building a new church and had chosen the slums of the city to build in since it was cheep and they needed some religion down there. Well the half orc wasn't too happy about mister goody goody building a beacon of light in her nice cozy slum so she made an effort to get involved in his story.

I'm hoping I can get that kind of interaction from all my players.

I guess the simplest way to describe Exposure is anything the player is unconsciously (or consciously) 'throwing out' character hooks with.

This all seems part and parcel with the preliminary stuff you've already done.


That was actually a big part of why I did that. I already have a few ideas on how I intend to intermix each character's personal stories and backgrounds. I just need a little time to build to it. I'm kind of looking at the campaign as a building processes where everything comes together in the end.

,Matt

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On 2/26/2002 at 3:54pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Eloran wrote:
Am I doing something wrong or is 6 players and 1 DM too many people for this type of campaign?


There are possible techniques to improve your game, like the others have posted. But you could also consider playing with fewer players. This instantly causes all players to get more time for their character's development.

This goes back to age old arguments about optimal group size. I won't go too deeply into it, but one pretty sensible argument is that protagonists have to split the available protagonism to an extent. This is not perfectly true, but how often do you see more than a couple of main characters in a book. While certainly possible, especially in RPGs, it is also certainly more difficult.

The counter arguments point to the possible interaction of PCs and the collaborative power that a larger group can have. I don't deny this. But the balance between these two forces seems to land at three or four PCs. This is just from observation and experience, but any less and you lack interaction often. Any more and you spread things too thin. So, that's my suggested level, for any style of play. YMMV, of course, but I think it would help in your case.

Seeing as the game is already in progress, you may not want to mess with the group composition. But consider splitting the group up into two separate groups. Doubles your play, and each player will get twice as much focus for their character. You can find ways for them to interchange characters later at an appropriate moment to mix things up.

Hope that helps.

Mike

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On 2/26/2002 at 4:02pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Matt,

I have another comment. In many ways, this thread has been something of a bait-and-switch. You opened it with questions about GMing technique, with the only reference to the players being that they are not necessarily interested in one another's playing-time.

Then a few posts later, we learn that (a) one player did not prepare at all, and you allowed him to play anyway; (b) another did not prepare and (functionally) lied about it, and you permitted him to continue to play; and (c) players frequently practice "mess with other players' characters" as an ongoing part of play.

In other words, there's a lot of stuff going on here, far more deeply significant than "gee, how can I get them to pay attention to one another's scenes." Please note, I do not necessarily consider (c) above to be dysfunctional. I do think that you have an ideal for how these people should be playing, and approaching playing, and at least some of them do not accord with that ideal - and your solution is to continue to pretend that they do, hoping they somehow "change" to meet it one day. We can't help you with that; clearly, the only real-world solutions are to adjust your ideal or to adjust the composition of the group.

Best,
Ron

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On 2/26/2002 at 4:30pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

In many ways, this thread has been something of a bait-and-switch. You opened it with questions about GMing technique, with the only reference to the players being that they are not necessarily interested in one another's playing-time.


I wish you wouldn't use that term, it makes me feel like you think I was deliberately trying to deceive you and that's not the case. In general the game ran fine with the one exception of keeping people interested in the story, so I feel my initial question and provided info was sufficient. I washed my hands of the two unprepared players before the game began. I told everyone a month ago that if they didn't prepare I didn't care if they had any fun. My conern was more with the players that DID prepare and are interested in character delvelopment and story more than combat.

Then a few posts later, we learn that (a) one player did not prepare at all, and you allowed him to play anyway; (b) another did not prepare and (functionally) lied about it, and you permitted him to continue to play


If it was my choice I would tell them they can't play. I've run that past the other players and have received no support. The other players understand my disappointment, but no one wants to step up to the plate with me on it. Though I've known and gamed with many of these players for years I am relatively new to this particular group and don't feel I have the authority to oust someone from the game.

I do think that you have an ideal for how these people should be playing, and approaching playing, and at least some of them do not accord with that ideal - and your solution is to continue to pretend that they do, hoping they somehow "change" to meet it one day.


I don't expect them to meet my ideal so much as I'd like them to expand their horizons and look at gaming in a different light like so many of us at the Forge have done. And for the most part they have.



,Matt

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On 2/26/2002 at 7:59pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Hi Matt,

I must tell you that phrases including, "... it makes me feel like you think I was ..." are not going to be useful in discussions with me. I'm very straightforward - if I'd considered you to have been deceptive, I would have said so (probably privately, and told you to stop). The effect of the thread was bait-and-switch; whether it just worked out that way, or what, is irrelevant.

Your latest post leaves me further in the dark. Are the players according with your goals (enough), or aren't they? It's not a matter of degree. Either the amount of overlap among everyone's priorities of play is functional, or it isn't.

Fang, Paul, Ralph, Mike, and I represent a broad spectrum of approaches to play. We've offered quite a lot of stuff to consider, and I know you put a lot of time and effort into preparing. At this point, I'm very interested in your game (as you know, we talked all about being in-between Narrativist and Simulationist goals and how to deal with that), so please don't take my terseness for personal criticism. Go for that second session, and keep us posted.

Best,
Ron

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On 3/4/2002 at 6:04pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
Session #2

Well, I ran the second session of my game on Saturday and I have to say it went much better than the previous one.

I ran the game quite similar to last week, but did some crossovers between each character's story. It worked out pretty well as far as keeping people interested. We were also short one player so I think that sped things up a little.

We also had a couple scenes that we desided would be better played out privately.

More of the main story came to light and I think the players were pretty intrigued with what was happening. the bard was going crazy because she had no idea who to trust and the paladin was completely frustrated trying to keep the other character's morals in check. It was pretty entertaining.

The few problems we did have all revolved around the one problem player I mentioned before. For starters, he guessed that the cult of the dragon was the main villain. Props to him for figuring it out, but he didn't have to announce it OOC to everyone. I'm contemplating altering the story to keep the players guessing, but I don't know if I'd be doing it just to spite him. The only thing that really pissed me off was that he spent about 50% of the session playing games on his palm pilot. In part I guess it's my fault for not giving him stuff to keep his attention, but I refuse to load the game down with combat just to satisfy one player.

I do think there is hope for him however. There was a moment when I thought I was drawing him in, but alas I failed. There were two NPCs that he included in his background: his mother and the weapons master that trained him. His character was actually living with his mother and the one scene he had with her showed him to be kind of a momma's boy of sorts. So, of course, this week I had her kidnapped by the villains. The villains tried to make a deal with him. He was to keep his group distracted from their current investigation. In exchange he would be rewarded financially and his mother would be spared.

I could see it in his face that he wanted to care about what was happening. It was frustrating because I could literally see him convince himself that she was already dead and there was no need to let his charcater get emotional about it. Is that kind of pesamistic attitude a standard fixture amoung Gamists?

By the end of the session he did betray the party by giving the villains valuable information about the investigation, but I think it was more for the money than his mother's life.

I'm not sure quite what to do now. I think I need to prove to him that his mother is still alive and that her fate does indeed revolve around his actions. For a while I was considering kiling her in front of him to show him that he was responsible for her death, but he did make an attempt to help the villains so I will probaly hold off.

Overall I'd have to say that I'm pretty happy with teh way the session played out.

,Matt

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On 3/4/2002 at 6:20pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Matt,

As a real quickie note here, I don't recommend killing off the mother NPC. I suggest that doing so would communicate to the player that such personal connections were, in fact, not important and that taking them seriously is a waste of time - the precise opposite of the message you would like to send (if I read your post correctly).

Best,
Ron

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On 3/4/2002 at 6:54pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

As a real quickie note here, I don't recommend killing off the mother NPC. I suggest that doing so would communicate to the player that such personal connections were, in fact, not important and that taking them seriously is a waste of time - the precise opposite of the message you would like to send (if I read your post correctly).


I don't think I will for just that reason. I do want to prove to her that she's alive, but I need to do it in such a way that he doesn't immediately assume its an illusion or a trick of some kind. Any suggestions?

,Matt

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On 3/4/2002 at 8:00pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Hi Matt,

Again, this is where personality and preference differences are going to make it hard for me to help ... it seems to me that by saying ...

"I need to do it in such a way that he doesn't immediately assume its an illusion or a trick of some kind"

... you are proposing an impossible goal: to specify how another person will interpret your action.

It seems to me that the goal (if I'm reading this whole thread right) is to have the player actually give a shit about the character and his mom, and that, frankly, is not something you can "make" happen. I suggest that by killing the mom, you would be making it impossible (which is why I suggested not doing that), but I also suggest that the best you can do is make it possible, as opposed to "making" the player do it.

Anyway, so, I'd just be blunt. Have the player find out that his mom's alive, in terms that seem to you to be pretty straightforward. How much he cares, i.e., whether he cares enough to find out if it's a "trick" or whatever, is up to him.

Best,
Ron

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On 3/4/2002 at 8:36pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

It seems to me that the goal (if I'm reading this whole thread right) is to have the player actually give a shit about the character and his mom, and that, frankly, is not something you can "make" happen.


Actually, I think he does care, but lacks the skills necessary to project that through his character. When he found out the mother had been kidnapped he cared - I could see it in his face. The problem is that he didn't know how to react. He's been in hack and slash mode for so long he simply shut down when presented with something else. I was hoping that someone could enlighten me with an nidea on how to get past that resistance.

As far as not being able to make someone care about an NPC, I don't think that's entirely true. Advertiser and journalists do it every day. I've taken enough communications and advertising classes to know that you can convince people of damn near anything with the right tools. How are roleplaying games any different? If a cult leader can convince a hundred people to commit suicide I should be able to get a gamist to care about an NPC.

,Matt

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On 3/4/2002 at 9:06pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Hi Matt,

Are we discussing your upcoming game or are we arguing about something? I believe I may have hit a nerve with my comment about "making" people feel or think things. As you are neither an advertiser armed with mass media, nor a cult leader armed with a cult, I suggest that your points about them do not apply to your situation as GM. Let the nerve tingle (if it did in the first place) and let's stay on track.

To stick to specifics, I will take it as given that the player is at least capable of caring about what's going on. I submit again that your best bet is to provide any evidence, as good as you can make it, that the character's mother is alive and needs him. It also might be good to provide some retroactive information that makes the mom a more interesting NPC in general.

If that point is understood, then I'm done with this thread until next time, unless another point of inquiry is raised.

Best,
Ron

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On 3/4/2002 at 9:32pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Are we discussing your upcoming game or are we arguing about something? I believe I may have hit a nerve with my comment about "making" people feel or think things.


I don't think we're arguing. Are we? I think we simply have alternate views on what is and is not possible.

As you are neither an advertiser armed with mass media, nor a cult leader armed with a cult, I suggest that your points about them do not apply to your situation as GM. Let the nerve tingle (if it did in the first place) and let's stay on track.


You're right, I'm not any of those things. However, I am a GM armed with the Forge and was hoping our collective minds could come up with something. I conceed that simply throwing an NPC out there isn't going to make a player care, but I honestly think that by putting the PC and said NPC in certain situations I should be able to elicit a desired effect.
If I gave this player a +5 long sword loaded down with special abilities I guarantee he'd care about it if I later took it away. What I want to know is, how can I make an NPC as important as a +5 longsword to this player.

It also might be good to provide some retroactive information that makes the mom a more interesting NPC in general.


That's a good idea. I've already introduced one flashback scene for another character (which I think is a first for this group) and it was accepted. I'll set something up for this character aswell.

Thanks Ron,

Matt

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On 3/4/2002 at 9:47pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Eloran wrote:
If I gave this player a +5 long sword loaded down with special abilities I guarantee he'd care about it if I later took it away. What I want to know is, how can I make an NPC as important as a +5 longsword to this player.



Thats a very good question. One that I think may be so taken for granted by folks here that we lose sight of the basics.

I've used a few techniques myself in this regard, and while I've had some good successes am probably not the best expert on how to make an NPC compelling enough for a player to care about them the way they'd care about that +5 longsword (I remember well my days of "screw mom, give me that kick ass sword").

But I'm sure there are some folks out here who have techniques they use to accomplish precisely that. Thats a topic worthy of a thread all by itself.

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On 3/4/2002 at 9:59pm, hardcoremoose wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Okay, this is odd, one, because I know the people involved, and two, because I just made a connection between this and the discussion going on about WYRD.

I've been agonizing over ways to make Tragedy signifcant in WYRD and I keep coming back to the idea of mechanical reinforcement. Make it actually do something in the game.

My solution to Matt's problem? Make a +5 Mother. Seriously.

This idea is all over the narrativist designs - Trollbabes and whatnot - so why not carry it over to Gamist design as well. Make the relationships matter by giving characters bonuses when those people are the scenes, or when they can invoke those relationships. If that's what matters to the player, don't waste your time trying to make him care about something he isn't interested in - give him what he wants.

I can see it now: +3 Vorpal Girlfriend of Holding. Kicks ass.

- Scott

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On 3/4/2002 at 10:19pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Hi Matt,

You have stated the mom/sword question beautifully. Here're some threads that might help ...

Hooking the players
PC/NPC emotional bonding

Best,
Ron

Forge Reference Links:
Topic 202
Topic 345

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On 3/5/2002 at 2:19pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Heh, that's beautiful Scott...with thinking like that you'll make a great Universalis player :-)

But seriously, the idea isn't really all that bleeding edge that it couldn't work in D&D. Pendragon Passions had the ability to call on the power of relationships to boost other skills (usually involving sticking someone with a pointy stick), and that is pretty solidly old school

In fact, during one brief episode of insanity where I had toyed with the idea of converting Pendragon to D20 (...I got better...) I had noted how easily things like Passions could work in the new D&D rules. That might be something to consider as a mechanical aid.

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On 3/6/2002 at 1:13pm, contracycle wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

I do like the +5 Mom... but I'm a big believer in the mechanical enforcement of setting/genre values.

One thing that concerns me in regard this specific example - is "mom" a character, or a McGuffin? Has mom spent all game time off screen so far? If so, she's just a notional concept - neither the player nor the character have a relationship with "mom", they only know that they have a notional relationship with "a mom".

Thus, if I were establishing this scenario I would make sure to bring mom on stage a few times, to walk and talk and basically take on a specific rather than generic identity. So reinforced, the dilemmas to which the NPC is exposed will have greater resonance for the PC.

What is it about mothers anyway? Why this particular realtionship? Probably becuase it is arguably the most intimate - if nothing else, every square inch of you has been inspected, washed and handled by your mother. Play this up - bring on mom to make embarrasing ancedotes about their early, early youth. Have mom ruffle his hair, adjust his collar, all on autopilot, without thinking, prefereably while there is someone the character is romantically involved with present. Reinforce the intimacy of their off-screen relationship with symbolic on-screen acts.

Lastly, players are much more motivated by personal decision that either the carrot or the stick. Therefore, in the spirit of grand illusionism, it might be plausible to have, say, the players stumble upon the artifacts of a kidnap victim, only to find that one of said artifacts is clearly and obviously recognisable to a player character. The reaction then is, hopefully, "my god they've taken my mother" rather than the dry presentation of a mission objective. Another approach would be to have the charcter imprisoned somewhere accessible, but under official sanction of death. Breaking mom out of prison, therefore, condemns everyone involved to permanent exile at the most optimistic, death at the least, and presents a major conflict of loyalties issue. Mom does not need to be rescued, she needs to be cleared, or the characters face the prospect of attending their own mothers beheading. Would you want to be in that crowd, to share a last glance? Watch them while they think about it... and then show them the headsmans axe.

Anyway, most of these ideas would not be consistent with one another, and probably have no direct utility in your situation, but that outlines my approach.

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On 3/6/2002 at 4:18pm, Matt Gwinn wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Has mom spent all game time off screen so far? If so, she's just a notional concept - neither the player nor the character have a relationship with "mom", they only know that they have a notional relationship with "a mom".


She has been in one scene with the player so far, but we've only had 2 sessions.

Thus, if I were establishing this scenario I would make sure to bring mom on stage a few times, to walk and talk and basically take on a specific rather than generic identity.


I should have waited a bit on the kidnapping angle, but I was kind of desperate to get the player involved as something other than the being the guy that kills stuff. To make up for my hastiness I intend to have a few flashbacks over the next few sessions.

Play this up - bring on mom to make embarrasing ancedotes about their early, early youth. Have mom ruffle his hair, adjust his collar, all on autopilot, without thinking, prefereably while there is someone the character is romantically involved with present. Reinforce the intimacy of their off-screen relationship with symbolic on-screen acts.


I've already done this somewhat. In the one scene he had with her she kind of hassled him about forgetting about all this adventuring business and going back to school (he was trained in his youth as a blacksmith).

Lastly, players are much more motivated by personal decision that either the carrot or the stick. Therefore, in the spirit of grand illusionism, it might be plausible to have, say, the players stumble upon the artifacts of a kidnap victim, only to find that one of said artifacts is clearly and obviously recognisable to a player character.


That's a fine idea. I'll have to come up with something for the other party members to find.

,Matt

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On 3/6/2002 at 7:59pm, contracycle wrote:
RE: Exploratory D&D

Eloran wrote:
I've already done this somewhat. In the one scene he had with her she kind of hassled him about forgetting about all this adventuring business and going back to school (he was trained in his youth as a blacksmith).


Fair enough, although I might be mildly concerned that its the wrong aspect of their relationship to play up. Its the bit which speerates them, rather than that which binds them. It certainly enforces the parental identity, but in order to evoke a sympathetic response I think would need to go for something more intimate. Theres a possibility this was chosen because other player characters were present? Stage one of those embarassing personal arguments where an innocent third party is caught in the crossfire and has to decide whether they would draw more attention to themselves by leaving or sitting tight. Anyway, the embarrasment is intended as a side issue to the intimacy of the subject matter.

If you are already under way, I guess it might be best to proceded in a fairly conventional way, use the whole exercise with mom as McGuffin to bring her on stage, and then use her after she has acquired an identity. This means the whole thing has to end in such a way that her continued prominence is rationalised. I think, anyway.

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