Hello all,

I lurk here a lot but never post but lately I’ve been beating my head against the wall.

Some of you may be familiar with my game GODSEND Agenda. For those who aren’t the basic premise is that if gods walked the earth they would be considered super heroes in the modern day. The game uses WEG’s D6 system as its engine

I’m currently writing the first supplement and wanted to add an optional rule that would simulate the heroic growth and progression of a hero from a comic book/mythic point of view. I’d like for the player characters to be able to change the world around them and have an impact on their campaign.

In place now is the standard experience point system that allows characters to buy more powers and skill but I’d like something that goes beyond that. I’d like a system that is a combination of Pendragon’s Glory Attribute, Ray Winniger’s Underworld’s Parameters System, and the Marvel Universe Role-playing Game’s Experience Lines awards system.

I want the characters to feel that their characters have accomplished more than just stopping the local “super villain” from poisoning the water supply or foiling Joey Bagodonuts attempt at robbing the Savings and Loan. The characters are larger than life and I’d like the players to feel that way.
I’d like the characters to have a way of actively affecting their world so that their accomplishments matter. There are a lot of super hero games out there but none of them (at least the ones I own) allow for the characters to make substantial difference in the game world without the use of GM fiat. Underworld was the closest that I could find that solved the problem.

Beyond the accumulation of “kewl” powers and advantages I’d like for them to become living legends. I’d like for them to be able to look at their characters and see growth beyond a few numbers written on a piece of paper. I want them to look at their characters and see a transformation from a fledgling hero to something truly EPIC.

So this is what I’m looking for;
A way to simulate glory, prestige or infamy
A way for the character to making a substantial and lasting impact on their environment over the course of a story arc or campaign.
A way for characters to grow as a supplement or alternative to the standard experience point award system.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated

Jerry D. Grayson wrote: A way to simulate glory, prestige or infamy

A way for the character to making a substantial and lasting impact on their environment over the course of a story arc or campaign.
A way for characters to grow as a supplement or alternative to the standard experience point award system.

I'm quoting MYSELF now, cute wrote:
Or make it "game-y": Spend 10 Glory to create an institution of some kind that people frequent (Fitness Center, Community Center, A bridge, A gang of vigillantes, a diamond that you created from coal and your eye-lazers, a spaceship, a fortress in the shape of a skull, etc): Then, from that point, you need to invest 1 new point of Glory into that resource per adventure to "tap" it, but you gain 2-3 Character Points from the power of human hope/glory/awe/despair/fear to use as you wish per institution per adventure.

Thanks Andy. I think the first idea will work best.

What if instead of making the points a secondary pool it used the actual experience points? Players could either spend them on the character or their particular Agenda.As they spent the points the would chronicle the deeds in a log that would, as the story progressed, give the player a sense of history.
Maybe the “spent” point can also act as a gage for how much renown the character has.
For instance;
A character spends 20 points on making a lasting change in the city. The change is made and also on the glory chart he is considered;

5: recognized
10: neighborhood hero
20: hero
30: local hero
40: regional fame
50: national celebrity
70: global hero
The chart is off the top of my head but could be refined so that the goal is to make your personal mark on the world and in doing so the character becomes famous or infamous.
The burden to make a difference in the world is up to the player to do or not as he/she sees fit.

Jerry D. Grayson wrote: What if instead of making the points a secondary pool it used the actual experience points? Players could either spend them on the character or their particular Agenda.

I see your point and it makes perfect sense. You’re right, players will be players.
I just want the mechanic to feel like a personal sacrifice, something substantial. Players that get shadow points would have no reason not spend them on glory or changing the world. If I was sitting on 20 points that had no other value I’d just pump them all into some grandiose plan to change the world. I mean, why wouldn’t I?

I get exps, and a like amount of shadow points at the end of the game…. There needs to be a mechanic here..

Maybe the shadow points are doled out by the Gm as he sees fit and not just given when exps are given. Or maybe the shadow points are a percentage of the exps earned.

What if players had to have a personal agenda written on the characters sheet and they could only spend the points to attain those agendas. The character would have to role play towards their particular agenda and the Gm would award points for good role playing.

An agenda could be any personal goal but they would have to be lofty, not just “I need to pay my rent”. Something the character could theoretically become famous for.

Jerry D. Grayson wrote: I just want the mechanic to feel like a personal sacrifice, something substantial. Players that get shadow points would have no reason not spend them on glory or changing the world. If I was sitting on 20 points that had no other value I’d just pump them all into some grandiose plan to change the world. I mean, why wouldn’t I?

I'd actually say that having just one pool of XP for both changing your character and changing the world is more fun, and it can definitely be made to work.

Andy Kitkowski wrote: give a d6 player a choice between making their character more powerful and giving them stake in vague backgroung changes, and they'll take the power any day of the week. I'm not a powergamer, and I know I would. Expand that over time, and you have the players all dumping XP into skills and attributes and no world background....

just a few quick thoughts i had-

1)if the players have more than one agenda, they could dump it into more than one at a time, spending the shadow xp as they got it with no effect until they hit the threshold required for impact

2)if the players have any 'narrative' rights, let them decide the impact of a 'partial' edxpenditure, kinda fuzzy here, but its a kernel of an idea

3)damn- i got sidetracked as the 2nd popped into mind and i forgot my third- ah well

i like the sound of what you've got here JDG and, as a fan of the d6 system, i might have to get it- good luck

Oh, and check out "Muses" in Nine Worlds, a system whereby your character's goals have a mechanical value that makes your character more likely to win conflicts which makes you more likely to boost the goals which makes you more likely to win...

Sydney Freedberg wrote: Probaby right, but Andy, you've just suggested the solution to the problem. Instead of having the choice be "make my character more powerful" (by improving my character sheet) vs. "vague background changes," make establishing background elements have a very concrete game-mechanical advantage that makes you more powerful.

...

The trick is to get out of the traditional RPG mindset of "only the stuff on my character sheet gives me power, and the only stuff on my character sheet is what my character can do, by himself." Emotions, relationships, background elements, etc. etc. can all be sources of power.

All the ideas presented so far are great an all could potentially work well.

One thing I getting hung up is that the agendas part of the equation isn’t very defined. I don’t know if I should leave it as a nebulous part of the whole thing or if there should be defined categories and then let the players work within those confines. I think once Agendas are quantified then we can better approach the problem of making them work within the boundaries of the D6 system.

I like the concept of the Agendas being categories like in Civilization, but I want to keep the book keeping fairly lite.

“Give me two public celebrity, 5 world peace, and let me trade in these 10 police influence for one military influence “ isn’t what I’m looking for.

I like the idea of buying dice for use in certain situations but again I run into a wall when I come to the agenda part.

Most of all I want the player to have a sense of accomplishment with the character that they themselves control, not necessarily another “combat bonus”.

Maybe my problem is that I’m looking at it from just a super hero point of view. If the game was a different genre, let say a space opera or fantasy how you would implement an agenda/glory system.

ahh, but Jerry- part of being a super is about geting another combat bonus- i personally love the idea of dumping points into a 'community resource/agenda' that i have stated, by placing it on the character sheet, is important to me

let's try to look at some 4-color type examples:

Superman could be said to have dumped a good deal of points into metropolis, then the world and finally lois lane (a person as agenda might be stretching it, but it might be a possibility)- so whenever he does something relating to his agandas, he gets the bonuses.

Spiderman- points in Gwen Stacy, then MJ, points in NY (his home, and he felt strongly about protecting the common person)

actually, i think what i'm saying with these examples is this:

Agenda: Ideals, Individuals, Persons and Places that are central to a Supers ideology and motives. Whenever these items might be threatened and the PC can suitably describe his character's deep and personal attachment to one of them, he may get the bonus dice assigned to it.

its rough, but i think it might be what you were looking for- c super can designate a community center his secret ID works at as the place, and maybe all the kids he's helped thru it over the years as the people

hell, i know its rough, but i'm a lil juiced on sinus meds cause im not feelin well, but hey- take what you like and toss the rest :)

What do you do with the guy (and You know he's out there) thats says his agenda is " to be the best super hero, or Brawler there is in the world"? Just imagine him with a dice pool that he could use to bolster hist attacks. YIKES!

How about a set number of agendas that have an opposite like passions do in Pendragon? A player starts with an even slate but can buy up one side or the other. The diffrent agendas give diffrent bonus in diffrent areas. or something like that...ok, im running out f steam here..just lost my train of thought.

better shut up now

Jerry D. Grayson wrote: What do you do with the guy (and You know he's out there) thats says his agenda is " to be the best super hero, or Brawler there is in the world"?

Ok, herer is something I whipped up tonight. It’s kinda rough and still needs somepolish. Tell me what you think and what could be refined or tweeked. I’m not married to this idea so any input would be great.

RENOWN and AGENDAS

Ka using beings have existed in the world for thousands of years. Many of these beings used their extraordinary powers to set themselves above the rest of humanity as gods. All of these beings used the GODSEND Agenda to pursue their own private schemes; some for personal glory and grandeur, and some for the sake of the common man.

Every character in GODSEND Agenda has a personal drive to do what they do. The greatest goals and ambitions are called Agendas. Theses are the things that the character drives toward during the game. Unlike standard 4 color comics and the games that strive to emulate them characters in GODSEND should be more proactive rather than being reactive to problems. They should want to use their powers for more than stopping the bank robber from robbing the bank, they should want to influence and change the world.
You have been blessed with super human abilities and powers…what do you do with them? Do you sue them for personal gain, do you try to make a difference in the world, or do you just sit back and use them only to react to problems around you?

Agendas can be anything from wanting to becoming the worlds most famous super powered celebrity to wanting to take over a small nation and have the natives there worship you as a god.

Arthur wanted to unite England and shrug off the tyranny of the Saxon invaders, Lui Bei sought to unite the warring kingdoms of China, and Hitler envisioned a world where the Ayran master race ruled the world. These are all Agendas.

[[[Sidebar]]]
The Intentions of Renown and Agendas

This is an optional rule that can be used in conjunction with the standard game play and supplements the standard experience point award system. The xxx is used to add another layer to the character giving the player a since of accomplishment while immersing him deeper into the game environment.

Everyone in the game should have some sort of driving motivation that keeps their character progressing. This system is designed to help the character feel a since of accomplishment that they have sole control over. As the Games master you should not feel threatened by giving a small amount of narrative control over to the players, it can only make them feel more a part of the game. Some many times in super hero games the characters are only reacting to what is thrown at them that they fail to go beyond and start being proactive with their powers. This meta-system gives the players the opportunity to do just that; be PROACTIVE.

Feel free to use what you want here or completely ignore it, it is your choice.
[[[End Sidebar]]]

RENOWN
This is a pool of points received when characters get experience points during a game. The amount given depends on how the character performed during the game.
1-2 points for perform as expected during the adventure
3-5 for performing beyond expectations
6-10 for performing well beyond the capabilities of the character
11-15 the character has performed a great feat of heroism

Renown can also be taken away for acts unbecoming a “hero” or performing something that would make him infamous and this number can even go into the negatives. Failing a task or being beaten by a villain can end with the character loosing renown.

For the sake of the system positive and negative points work in the same way when spending them on agendas since villains have sinister goals. Beyond spending these points on Agendas renown also has the added bonus of making the character more recognizable and celebrated or reviled.

0: A complete unknown
1-10 A neighborhood big brother or thug
11-20 A local hero or small time hood
21-30 A obscure hero or criminal (+1 on all social interaction rolls)
31-40 A lesser known hero or villain
41-50 A minor hero of the people or (+2 on all social interaction rolls) the character may choose one benefit from the list below.*
51-60 A hero
61-70 A Major Hero (the character has achieved enough notoriety that most people know of him) (+3 on all social interaction rolls)*
71-80 A super hero (stories are written of the character’s exploits) *
81-90 A legendary hero (+1D+1 on all social interaction rolls)*
91-100+ living god or diabolic archfiend of legend (common people are awed in your presence) (+1D+2 on all social interaction rolls)*

* At this level the character may choose one Renown Benefit from the list below.

Renown Benefits
Action: Add 2 to all skill or attribute totals for the round.
Alertness: The character has a “sixth sense” outside of all other rules and situations that will help him to spot a previously unseen item, character, or clue selected by the Game Master. The benefit does not confer omniscience, however, and the Game Master can select a time for having it come into effect. It is normally used to allow a character to spot something he missed in a previous search that is important to the adventure.
Breakthrough: Add 1D to any one skill die code in which the character has no additional pips or dice (in other words, a skill in which the character is untrained). The benefit also eliminates the unskilled modifier for using that skill.
Haste: Gain one additional action for one round.
Hero: Receive one bonus Fate Point, which the character must use immediately.
Opponent fails: After an opponent or enemy has completed an action against the character, the character may call upon this benefit to cancel the effects entirely. This nullifies the opponent’s action, and play continues. The lucky character may not use this benefit to cancel an action that is not directed at least partially at him.
Second chance: Using this benefit allows the character to “do over” any action she has just tried, from the very beginning. This benefit cannot negate “bad choices” – the character must perform the same action again – nor does it allow the character to “get back” Fate Points, Character Points, or cards spent on the original action. The character merely gets another chance, immediately following the first attempt, to perform the action again. All effects from the first attempt are ignored.


AGENDAS
Agendas come in all shapes and sizes but all have in common that they are important to the character. Each character decides what his Agenda is and it is ok to have more than just one. Each agenda is rated on the chart below and cost Renown points to achieve.

Spending Renown points do not lower the character’s renown rating. The hero is just as famous as he was before he spent the points, but once the points are spent they cannot be spent again and are considered tied to the accomplishment; this will be primarily why the character is famous.


Agenda

The Agenda is small and personal: I’m going to quit eating chocolate. Cost 1 Renown point

The Agenda affects a small group of people close to the hero. I’m going to use these great powers to make my family’s life comfortable. Cost 5 Renowned points
The Agenda affects a small community. “I wanna clean up this neighborhood”. Cost 20 Renown Points

The Agenda affects the city. “This is my town, I protect it”. Cost 40 Renown Points. The character receives additional 1-5 points of Renown when he completes this Agenda

The Agenda affects the region. “The people of this area have no acces to the river, so I’ll divert it”. Cost 60 Renown Points. The character receives additional 5-10 points of Renown when he completes this Agenda.

The Agenda affects the country. “There is no need for a vote, I will assume control of the Senate”. Cost 80 Renown Points. The character receives additional 10-15 points of Renown when he completes this Agenda.

The Agenda affects the continent. “All Australians will worship me as their god”. Cost 100 Renown Points. The character receives additional 20-30 points of Renown when he completes this Agenda.

The Agenda affects the World. “No being on this planet will go to bed hungry”. Cost 150 Renown Points The character receives additional 40-50 points of Renown when he completes this Agenda.

The Agenda affects the galaxy. “I will single handedly wipe out the Chimeran threat”. Cost 200 Renown Points. The character receives additional 75-100 points of Renown when he completes this Agenda.

No suggestions or critiques?

Come on gang, any kind of input would be greatly appreciated. If nothing else tell me how the above system can be broken so that I can try and fix it.

I don't know the D6 system, so I hesitated to comment on your detailed implementation, but, well, two things:

1) I see you have an investment dynamic here: If you spend X Reknown to get an Agenda, when you fulfill that Agenda you get Y Reknown back, where Y > X. This is a good incentive, but (a) it'll require playtesting to make sure the numbers work in practice and (b) it's a closed loop, as far as I can tell, since once you get Reknown you can only spend it on getting Agendas to get more Reknown to get more Agendas to get more (etc.)

2) The primary benefit of Reknown is reaction bonuses, which makes perfect sense. But the optional benefits for various levels of being reknowned -- 6th sense, extra dice here and there -- don't really encourage involvement int the world. They're basically just like going up a level in D&D and getting new abilities. You might want to instead offer bonuses that have something to do with Reknown, like allies, a home base, favors you can call in, and so on. (See examples given earlier in this thread, or the HeroQuest book aif you've $40 to spare).

Ok, I’ve finally had time to go back and tweak this a bit. any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks! What I have changed is the way characters benefit from the gaining of renown.

RENOWN
This is a pool of points received when characters get experience points during a game. The amount given depends on how the character performed during the game.
1-2 points for perform as expected during the adventure
3-5 for performing beyond expectations
6-10 for performing well beyond the capabilities of the character
11-15 the character has performed a great feat of heroism
20+ The character died in the line of duty (all renown benefits are awarded posthumously)

Renown can also be taken away for acts unbecoming a “hero” or performing something that would make him infamous and this number can even go into the negatives. Failing a task or being beaten by a villain can end with the character loosing renown.
For the sake of the system positive and negative points work in the same way when spending them on agendas since villains have sinister goals. Beyond spending these points on Agendas renown also has the added bonus of making the character more recognizable and celebrated or reviled.

0: A complete unknown
1-10 A neighborhood big brother or thug
11-20 A local hero or small time hood
21-30 A obscure hero or criminal (+1 on all social interaction rolls)
31-40 A lesser known hero or villain
41-50 A minor hero of the people or (+2 on all social interaction rolls) the character may choose one benefit from the list below.*
51-60 A hero
61-70 A Major Hero (the character has achieved enough notoriety that most people know of him) (+3 on all social interaction rolls)*
71-80 A super hero (stories are written of the character’s exploits) *, F1
81-90 A legendary hero (+1D+1 on all social interaction rolls)*, F2
91-100+ living god or diabolic archfiend of legend (common people are awed in your presence) (+1D+2 on all social interaction rolls)*, F3
For every Additional 50 Renown the character receives the benefits of the 100+ renown level.

*= More and more Ka is being directed by those who revere or worship the character. At this level the character’s Ka points increase by 1D+2 points. These points are kept as long as the character remains at the renown level or above. If she should ever fall below the threshold then the points are lost.

F1: Followers
The hero becomes so well know that people who believe in his cause flock to his side. The followers could be anything from a fan club to a small church devoted to the character. The followers will do what ever they can within reason to help promote and facilitate the ideas of the character. The followers believe in the ideas of the character but will not endanger their own lives in any way.
Once the characters Renown reaches 90+ the followers will willing lay down their lives to help the character achieve his goal. Followers will take abuse but will eventually leave if treated poorly on a regular basis, some may even lash out and turn of the character.
The character receives a number of followers equal to 4D multiplied by their Presence die code. Their stats follow;
Follower
All attributes at 2D
Skills: 5 points in various skills
Advantages: None
Disadvantages: Devotion (R1) to the characters goals
Move: 10. Strength Damage: 1D. Fate Points: 0. Character Points: 0. Body Points: 18/Wound levels: 2. Equipment: varies
Point Value:

The character receives additional followers equal to their Presence die code multiplied by 50. (Example: A character with a presence of 3D would roll 3D and multiply the result by 50.)

F2: The character receives additional followers equal to their Presence die code multiplied by 100 plus 2 champions built with 100 character points. The standard followers become zealots willing to give their lives for the character at this level. The champions may have super human abilities and are loyal to a fault to the character.

F3: The character receives additional followers equal to their Presence die code multiplied by 1000 plus 2D+2 champions built with 100 character points.

AGENDAS
Agendas come in all shapes and sizes but all have in common that they are important to the character. Each character decides what his Agenda is and it is ok to have more than just one. Each agenda is rated on the chart below and cost Renown points to achieve. Spending Renown points do not lower the character’s renown rating. The hero is just as famous as he was before he spent the points, but once the points are spent they cannot be spent again and are considered tied to the accomplishment; this will be primarily why the character is famous.

Agenda
The Agenda is small and personal: I’m going to quit eating chocolate. Cost 1 Renown point
The Agenda affects a small group of people close to the hero. I’m going to use these great powers to make my family’s life comfortable. Cost 5 Renowned points
The Agenda affects a small community. “I wanna clean up this neighborhood”. Cost 20 Renown Points
The Agenda affects the city. “This is my town, I protect it”. Cost 40 Renown Points. The character receives additional 1-5 points of Renown when he completes this Agenda

The Agenda affects the region. “The people of this area have no acces to the river, so I’ll divert it”. Cost 60 Renown Points. The character receives additional 5-10 points of Renown when he completes this Agenda.

The Agenda affects the country. “There is no need for a vote, I will assume control of the Senate”. Cost 80 Renown Points. The character receives additional 10-15 points of Renown when he completes this Agenda.

The Agenda affects the continent. “All Australians will worship me as their god”. Cost 100 Renown Points. The character receives additional 20-30 points of Renown when he completes this Agenda.

The Agenda affects the World. “No being on this planet will go to bed hungry”. Cost 150 Renown Points The character receives additional 40-50 points of Renown when he completes this Agenda.

The Agenda affects the galaxy. “I will single handedly wipe out the Chimeran threat”. Cost 200 Renown Points. The character receives additional 75-100 points of Renown when he completes this Agenda.