hey guys, thought you might be interested in a report from a first time rpg designer/self publisher. i just received a copy in the mail. it's my Empire of Satanis, a Lovecraftian Fantasy roleplaying game in Hell (or a dimensional similarity thereof). the cover art is amazing, it looks just like the giant painting of Satanis towering above my game room! (people who buy the book will get a nice suprise when they see the back cover).

Lulu did a great job. and i also plan to use them again to self publish my next endeavor. although this one will be for my weird horror short stories and poetry.

getting back... as an introductory offer, i decided to offer the pdf for free and the book version for just the cost of production. the price isn't too steep - about $5.75 for 63 pages. Lulu has to make a little bit in there too. luckily, i was able to get various gaming, horror, satanist, cthulhu, and post modern magick contacts/websites to promote it which got me about 500 hits and 40 copies sold in about 3 weeks. don't know if that's awesome or just pretty good, but i'm very pleased.

only Satanis knows what will happen when that damned website finally gets up and running. i've been telling people it's about done for a month and a half now. ah well, i can't force the webdesigners at gunpoint i suppose. anyone else experience this for their indie gaming site? my site will have a button that directs people to lulu, and a couple areas for EoS content from people who play the game and want to submit stuff. hopefully we'll see it in a couple days: http://www.CultofCthulhu.net let me know what you guys think. it's not just for EoS, but the rpg does get a third of the site.

i'm also going to offer some copies at my Madison, WI Cthulhu Mythos / Lovecraft convention: Cthulhu One. i hope that will generate some interest too. is there a next logical step? there's probably a lot of differing opinions on advertising and using pdf gaming sites. while i don't care about making any $ off Satanis, my two goals are to get people playing Satanis while not losing cash on this dark path to Hell.

if you're interested, check it out here: http://www.lulu.com/content/113758
thanks, D

One question, is the layout in the print version the same as the layout in the PDF version? (I downloaded the PDF version and the layout was enough to turn me off to buying the print version.)

Hey Darrick,

I hope this isn't presumptuous, but was the review on lulu written by a friend/playtester? It really reads like it. If you know the person, you might have him tone it down a bit. Maybe it doesn't matter, but it seems like it might be a turn-off.

yes, the layout is non existent. and that's the way i wanted it. would you reject the Mona Lisa if she was put in a 10 dollar frame? perhaps.

hey Jasper, how's it hangin'?

yep, i do know Sam Friedman and he was one of the playtesters. i thought it was a tad bit less lame than just writing the review myself. he thought up his own stuff to say though. the reason i asked him to write a review was 1. i could trust him to write something positive. and 2. he has a strange and darkly intellectual side that nearly rivals my own.

my legitimate credibility in this nihilistic, crap house of a world is nothing short of a laughingstock. has been for awhile now, thankfully. however, in terms of pure escapism i am the god of my own universe. yes, even above Satanis. any facet of perspective i can extrapolate to my vision has been deemed a good one.

won't everyone join me in this hilarious nightmare of an existence...?

D

p.s. Gaming Report finally did a piece on an older version of the game by a guy i have never met nor spoken to. cools.
http://www.gamingreport.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=1534

Empire of Satanis
http://www.lulu.com/content/113758

Hey, congrats on the Gaming Report review. They're always maddeningly short, but they do help get the word out.

"i could trust him to write something positive."

Best to stifle that attitude, son.

"he has a strange and darkly intellectual side that nearly rivals my own."

I think I've suddenly decided I don't like you... (First impressions.)

/me wanders back under his bridge.

darrick wrote: yes, the layout is non existent. and that's the way i wanted it. would you reject the Mona Lisa if she was put in a 10 dollar frame? perhaps.

i'm offering Empire of Satanis, not actually selling it. since i'm not making any money when people "purchase" a copy for $5.75 or whatever it is. i agree that the experience of reading is as important as the experience of the material being read. i just happened to want the experience of no frills immediacy which would be lost if i'd used silly fonts, window dressing, and precious columns.

for a more suitable paradigm (than the Mona Lisa), how about Stephen King's use of eye catching layouts to sell his books? what about when he was an unknown and struggling author? your good/bad thing, i feel, is subjective. seems to me like you are very entrenched in what you belive all role-playing games should look like, just as most people outside this forum are very entrenched in how rpg's should behave. i don't want to mention any names, but i've seen plenty of indie final products here and elsewhere that aesethetically left me feeling absurdly amused or thoroughly disenchanted.

ultimately, if people want a dark, weird, evil, over-the-top, 'be the monster' rpg with an original setting and system like Empire of Satanis they will either obtain a copy or they won't. i appreciate it when people read and enjoy EoS, but that's not why i wrote it...

Parallels to the Necronomicon

it is a different sort of game, and i'm not talking about the aforementioned description. rather, i'm refering to the fact that EoS is not just entertainment but it is also a magical working. the game's ideas (which for some reason have all but escaped attention - except for Paul and Scott on another thread) are about using black magic to alter the world around us. however, the book Empire of Satanis is an entity itself which I have used to change reality! and for that i needed symbols and text that have a personal resonance for me and me alone.

i'm happy to include others in my Satanis ritual by allowing them to read and play the game, drawing out the esoteric ideas from the Crimson God Himself! maybe they can use the book to further alter the substance behind this world? to them i would say - use the book as a magical tool, work your individual Will, subvert creation - make it your puppet, and in the words of Timothy Leary, "Find the Others."

D

Empire of Satanis
http://www.lulu.com/content/113758

www.CultofCthulhu.net

darrick wrote: your good/bad thing, i feel, is subjective.

seems to me like you are very entrenched in what you belive all role-playing games should look like

"Hey, you mentioned you were going to run an EoS game sometime around now. Just wondering if you had and how it went? Any questions about the game crop up during play? What sorts of cool things did you have the characters do?

BTW, we have a website for the game at www.urlhere.com, come check it out, there's some free material for the game available, you can post things about the game and talk to other groups about their games! Thanks!"

Geyorm, Darrick and I have had this conversation, and I'd gently advise you to let it go. Our (well intentioned) opinions won't mean much, unless lots of other people also comment about the layout as well.

Jasper wrote: Geyorm, Darrick and I have had this conversation, and I'd gently advise you to let it go. Our (well intentioned) opinions won't mean much, unless lots of other people also comment about the layout as well.

Perhaps it would be taken more gracefully if someone who is bothered by the layout were to point out the specifics of where and why the layout is bothering them, as opposed to just saying "it's bad".

Darrick may be thinking that the comments involve something other than what the person commenting actually means. For instance, he sounds as if he thinks people expect him to use fancy fonts and such to make it "look like an rpg" and I don't think that's really the case.

Novels don't look like rpgs, yet they're still readable. And there are still specific issues involved in laying them out. Good layout doesn't necessarily mean fancy layout.

first, please let me get this out of the way...

Hell yes Layout/Format is important!

hey MatrixGamer, i have no idea if we are on the same page or at cross purposes since you admittedly haven't even looked at the game yet. not trying to come across as angry (although i have been known to get defensive from time to time). Empire of Satanis is extremely readable. nice, clear, big letters that are easy to read, generous spaces between the paragraphs, bigger/darker headings, table of contents. a natural flow and progression of info that follows a logical pattern.

and yes, madelf, at this point i have no idea what people are referring to in the ways of layout. i think the layout is simple and accesible. it may not be all decorative and "eye catching" but it presents the game's information in the clearest and most direct way possible, that i can see. some have called it boring, although i would rather let the exciting content of the game lead the way to excitement. and i can hear the grinding of teeth even now, however keep in mind that i am personally turned off by layouts that try to "force" me to see their product in an exciting way. like a mountain dew commerical that buzzes with so much energy it makes me feel the opposite about the product.

and it should be obvious that no one cares more about the rpg book's cover appearance than me. it might sound like bragging (sorry troll-boy) but i believe the cover of EoS to be the best of any rpg, indie or otherwise, that i've seen in years. that pretty much goes for the back cover too. the cover art aesthetics are near and dear to my heart. i put a ton of effort into it and it has become my magical sigil that i use for the website and anything having to do with Satanis.

without coming off like a prick, i would really appreciate it if people who really felt the need to help me out (and i love you guys who try to encourage me, play Satanis, and get the word out there) and comment on what could be better would go to the site, buy the book to see it in it's true form (honestly the pdf doesn't do it justice and i'm looking at the book right now) and then judge the game. barring that, please take a look at the free pdf layout and cover art at the lulu page or now my website...

http://www.lulu.com/content/113758

thanks, Darrick Dishaw
www.CultofCthulhu.net

Ok, I'm game. Here's the two things I find in the layout that turn me off to it, and they're very simple to fix.

1) Justification. Jagged paragraph edges are not good for reading. They make a text more difficult to read, physically. Justifying your paragraphs would fix this and solve the majority of my problem with the layout.

2) Orphans. These are one or two sentences that exist either at the beginning or end of a page. In fact, if you can help it, don't even break sections across pages: it increases your page count but makes reading/referencing your book much easier.

2a) The Table of Contents needs improvement, not content wise, but "split across X number of pages at wherever the page break happened to be". It isn't user-friendly the current way.

Honestly, with those two bits fixed, the majority of my problems with the layout would be completely solved.

Other simple ideas about having good layout (not "look how cool I made this look" good but "look how readable I made this" good) can be found at Layout & Design Rules of Thumb, which you may wish to skim, especially (if not particularly) the "Text Organizers" section since you have stated you do not want to mess with the layout style too much.

I hope that's helpful/useful to you.

1) Justification.
2) Orphans.
2a) The Table of Contents


Oh boy, I've made all these errors! It helps that I shifted to Adobe PageMaker (just before they shifted to Indesign - I'm always behind the curve!) It catches a lot of these problems. This last round of redesign on my books has lead me to add an index. When I did this I was amazed at how much more accessible it made my book. It pulled together associated ideas in a way that my rules never did.

I strongly recommend doing this. It takes alittle work but boy is it worth it.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press

BTW Do definitely keep at the game making. If any of us stopped because we did something some one else thought was wrong nothing would ever get done. Un reasonalbe optomism is vital.

take a look at the free pdf layout and cover art at the lulu page or now my website...

http://www.lulu.com/content/113758

thanks, Darrick Dishaw
www.CultofCthulhu.net


I checked out the PDF on the LUlu page. It came up as a word file. Your games seems fine. Word basically sucks to present graphic design so it looks like a game in manuscript form. I use word for writing - I used to use MS Publisher for book design but it shares too many of Word's faults. Putting what you have now in InDesign, Quarkxpress, or Page Maker will produce better results even without funkie graphics or pictures. Your list of creatures just begs to be heavily illustrated (which Word just doesn't do well). Since you are going for a specific aesthetic, a graphic desing that follows that fashion would enhance the effect. My Cthulhu stuff is generally set in the 1920's and 30's so I use Art Deco graphics to add to the feel. If I was doing something set in the 60's I use 1967 hippie like graphics, you get the idea. This is separate from "game making" per se but it does add to the entertainment effect of the book.

The really nice thing about print on demand is the ability to incorporate changes into future books easily. Unlike having 1000 books to sell before changes can occur, you may have 10 to sell. I've personally benifited from this kind of flexibility. I seem to redesign my books every year. I has helped.

Your covers are colorful. That is good. They do give the "World has gone crazy" effect. I didn't see a title on them (and I couldn't tell if there was a title on the spine. Even if the book never goes to stores, I like to have a title on it (especially a spine title - so I can find it on my shelves easily. The trouble with a book of less than 40 pages is that there is not much spine to print on! Also 8.5x11 books that are thin can have a bad worping problem. Paper soaks up humidity like no tomorrow. If you're not storing tons of books in cardboard boxes in the garage (like one of my early games - What was I thinking?) then you'll probably not see this.

Anyway enough rambling.

Good luck with the game! If you're at GenCon drop by the Hamster PRess booth and show me the real book, I'm certain the PDF doesn't do your work justice.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press

hey, thanks for the encouragment and advice, matrixgamer. i'd love to have some interior art, although i think that sort of stuff is so immensly important that i couldn't allow any unless it completely blew me away technically, aesthetically, and faithfully to the race descriptions. i'm a very visual person, and a kinda lame drawing would really destroy my perception if i was a person who bought Empire of Satanis. kind of like how Lovecraft's monsters are better imagined than artistically realized. although there are a lot of cool Lovecraftian artists out there. for instance the pics i was able to use from the Call of Cthulhu CCG on my website. a decent pdf exists on the website, so hopefully people's first gander at the material will be there, then go to lulu to purchase the book version.

i am a creative person by nature, so that will never die. game design has been a cool and interesting challenge, however, it might be a good long while before i attempt it again. at the moment i'm more interested in putting together my collection of short stories, poetry, and magickal theory (the real kind).

i had it in mind to create the rpg that i really wanted to play, and that i did. EoS is a lot of fun and a huge breath of fresh air compared to D&D. a couple EoS quotes from people have been, "the rpg your mother warned you about" and "Lovecraft in Hell and on Acid." word. having said that, i do hope people will play it, like it, and spread my vision around. flawed or no, i will be pimping Satanis for a good long while. i'll see you at GenCon!

p.s. if anyone wants to use my banner to link my website to theirs, please feel free to do so: http://cultofcthulhu.net/cult_of_cthulhu_banner.jpg

thanks, D

_____________________

www.CultofCthulhu.net

greyorm wrote: Justification. Jagged paragraph edges are not good for reading. They make a text more difficult to read, physically.

I think most people find ragged-edge easier -- and some studies have indicated as much. It's because the spacing varies so much with justification, especially if your program isn't very good at it (e.g. Word). But justification looks better from a distance, often, and puts more text on a page. Most role-playing books I have use justification (Orkworld, DitV and Last Unicorn Games' original Star Trek games being the exceptions), though probably for convention as much as anything -- it's just perceived as more professional.

Here's a link to a well-researched article on justified text:
http://www.utpjournals.com/jour.ihtml?lp=product/jsp/292/292_jamison.html

I think a lot of it is simply personal preference. Most of what I read is justified, and sometimes the ragged right edge bothers me. At other times, I'll be distracted by the rivers of spaces running through justified text. But once a reader has made up his/her mind on this question (for instance, my wife would go along with Andrew in a sort of rabid distaste for justified text) I think they're going to be annoyed by the other option.

It must suck to be a person who is really bothered by justified text. Considering that the overwhelming majority of books are printed that way, it must make choosing reading material a real chore.

For myself, either is perfectly readable. Ragged right really doesn't bother me, but justified does make for a more visually appealing page if handled well. I have noticed problems with justified text more often in game books, but there it's more often caused by squeezing the column of text too narrow (either by poor wrapping around too large an image or having more columns than the page & text size warrents) so that there isn't room for the words to space without large gaps. In those cases, it's not really a text justification problem, but a layout problem.

...it's not really a text justification problem, but a layout problem.

Jasper wrote: I think most people find ragged-edge easier -- and some studies have indicated as much. It's because the spacing varies so much with justification, especially if your program isn't very good at it (e.g. Word).