Alright! Feeling geeked, getting my first RPG wrapped up!

The Imp Game Homepage - this here is the homepage, 0.5 draft of the rules, and links to some AP Threads.
I'm working with Calvin/madelf on the artwork, working out the layout of the book now.
I'm going with RPGNow/RPGMall's 4.25x5.5 format to get roughly a 52 page pocket sized book, which I plan to retail for $5.00 with PDF included ^_^

What I'm looking for now is some layout advice and finishing off the product. I layed out the rulebook for my card game, Final Twilight, and its okay, but it was also an included product- if the cards are pretty and you can read the rules, thats great. RPG rulebooks are the product onto themselves, however, and thats got me a touch nervous.

Rough layout is here: http://www.neoproductions.net/files/mischief.pdf
Art is still needed, will have pieces
(1) On the first page, right below the title
(2) On the Welcome page, aligned to the right
(3) For each imp, near their class description
(4) Under the Master, Villager, and Adventurer sections
(5) Comissioning several "action" shots to sprinkle about where warrented

Just noticed - TOC is slightly out of date on this upload, easy to fix, but I'm looking for some feedback on layout, tips & tricks, etc.
Other feedback is *always* welcome, I especially want to make sure I have the bases covered on the rules.

Nate,

Hope you don't mind me getting really nitty gritty. Here's what I would do.


• I'd add a slim bit of space to the left-hand side of the major headings; right now the white text directly abuts the edge of the black box.

• In the TOC, I don't know what those elipses really add. Since they don't extend all the way back to the chapter titles, they don't really make reading it any easier (and it's so narrow, so you wouldn't need that anyway). I think they make it look messy.

• The paragraph tabs are really big -- you might want to reduce them to half of what they are now. (Did you do it in Word? Word's tabs are always way too big.)

• Add some white space around the top and bottom of the example boxes. They look cramped.

• In those same boxes, you might want to add a little space after the title line.

• When you have diolog, with a "Biff: blahbitty bla" format, ala a script, consider indenting subsequent lines of text (after the first one). It's pretty dense now.

• Reduce the gap between the level three heading and the subsequent text to connect them more.

• When you have a bulleted item, make sure the explanatory text underneath is indented, so the left side of the paragraph is in-line witht he left side of the heading. (e.g. "Raising Target Numbers" on pp 7)

• In the lists of definitions (like for Traits) the document isn't consistent on the kind of dash used. Some time its a hyphen (I think) and some times an em dash. en is technically what you want there, but at least make them the same.



Hope that helps. And even if you are using plain old Word, everything I've suggested is quite possible -- with some fiddling usually.

Word it is indeed, and advice taken! *returns to mucking about file*

Edit- not seeing the bulleted list you're referring to on 7, but on 27? In which case, there are several instances I'll correct on that.

Sorry, I was looking at the pdf page, not the internal page. I meant 25.

One other thing, which is actually a bit of a pain to solve in Word: at least one of the example boxes spans pages, (I'm looking at pp 23) but there's no line around the break. If you give that sucker a frame, then you can fix that, with a little work.

You can also resize those boxes to match the paragraph width, if you want to. But, as you may have discovered, Word is very fiddly with such things. You may have to go through on the very final pass and adjust each one by hand (and be sure not to go backwards). That's probably more work than you need though.

Hmmkay, updated the file. Think I caught everything you mentioned. Any other quirks that jump out?
*Did increase the margins on the inside binding, but the extra page messes up the page spread. W/o it does look better.

Also, can anyone read this through for cohearance? That would be greatly appreciated as well- I know the system works the way I want it to, but does the rulebook explain that system?

I'm a fanboy. I'll do it, and also show it to my girl.

She'll say she's too busy, but I'll have tried. :)

Ok. Here we go.

I'll have to disappoint you - it's not coherent. Or at least, not apparently so, by the following definition: "Marked by an orderly, logical, and aesthetically consistent relation of parts."

Why?
- Due to the order of the parts (chargen and dicerolling before insightful 'this is what play is like'),
- loose description of GM and player roles (you want to describe a loose process - but you can make the description of that process more structured)
- loose description of terms
- introducing concepts before the reader is ready for them (Guts Points, Praise Points, etc.)
- and the amount of information you present is geared to the experienced roleplayer - but nowhere do you tell the reader that. The game would work with an experienced GM and a bunch of noobies OR a group of somewhat experienced players, but you describe the GM role as fairly unimportant. (Yet he guides the overall story and has additional Praise Point granting powers)
- there are spelling and layout mistakes (periods, letters, single words starting a page)

Examples:

"Welcome to the Imp Game" uses concepts that are associated with RPGs - yet it being an RPG is not mentioned until the "Summary of play".

"Summary of play" (and "The Imp Game") both define the game - but differently (one as "a fantasy role-playing game", the other as "a storytelling game"). The terms Master and Dungeon Master are both used (as well as later in the text, not always clearly separating player role and in-character 'Master'.

"Dice mechanics" starts out without any explanation of when, why, etc., in the larger context of players sitting around a table.

"Crazy imp" has "common sense" but no explanation of it

"Fears" assignment is explained twice (repetition). Praise Points are introduced without clarification.

"Flight" mentions wings, but no wings are present in the illustration.

At some point, almost I stopped being able to read it - because I hadn't been given enough of a 'why play this game'? Which is a shame, because I LIKE this game - or at least, I want to. The concept is cool, the sample descriptions are cool, the mechanic looks cool.

Opening with mechanics and character generation and a really slim introduction turns me off from wanting to play it - I want to know why I want to play the game right off the bat, and not after I've read the rules on how a character is made. Unless you were to really stress that the mechanics and the chargen system are the cool bits, and as an experienced gamer, I'll want to read them first and get to the rest of the 'regular' RPG stuff later.

Also, how am I supposed to assign Traits, Fears, Imp type, etc., without knowing what kind of play experience I will be getting?

The sentence opening the heading "success and failure" is an example of vagueness: "For the most part, players have almost complete control in the Imp Game." This is followed by "On a success or failure, players have the opportunity to narrate their own outcome." Further, you mention that experienced players will have a 'feel' for the right boundaries.

What you want to say is something like "Bound by the results of the described dice roll (success or failure), players may narrate this success or failure as they like, generally limited to their own imp and immediate consequences of the action taken." Right? Then do so.

I wish I had more time to present my case more clearly and more sympathetically (I want this game to succeed!), but hopefully you'll take these in the spirit they're intended and we can talk about this a bit more.

Good luck.

Also, Dungeon Master is a trademark of Wizards of the Coast and designated "product identity" in the SRD. I don't think you're allowed to use it in your game.

Ahkay, the DM was something I was going to double check anywho before something went to print. A kind of "artifact" from when the game was originally "Dungeons for Dummies".

Tobias - no sweat. Never layed out an RP before, so text explanation is slightly beyond me. Massacre any part of the book you wish and I'll patch it back up! Consider the notes taken and application to begin.

I'd agree with Tobias's comments. Another thing on the layout I noticed: the level-2 headings aren't very discernible from the level-3. A slight size increase would probably do it (as would various other effects); and you might also want to space the letters out a little...maybe something like .3pt

Hmmkay, before *I* butcher the manuscript, want to run an arrangement by all of you-

* Welcome Page
* Already took the "Summary" info listed and placed that under an "About" heading
* Summary of play, using one of my AP sessions (so its a REAL play, not a scripted)
* Introduction to Roleplaying: terms, duties/capabilties (Player & GM)
* Beginning a New game
* System & Mechanics: Die Mechanics, Guts Points, Praise Points, & "Immortal Imps" section. The Mechanics section to include when & where to roll, overview of GP (because it is a neccesity), followed by an elaborated explanation of GP and PP
* Chargen: Classes, Traits, Fears, Abilties, Checklist
* "World of the imps", Scenario suggestions, etc.

Most of what this will involve is taking that last section and butchering that, spreading it across the introductory sections.
BTW, please, PLEASE be harsh. A) I want this product to rock, B) I'm inexperianced at textually laying out rules, C) I'm an actor in my spare time, I'm used to directors destroying a performance of mine to make it better ^_^

Looks a lot better to me.

Note: I'm not saying you have to cater to the inexperienced - but it would seem a nice low-threshold game, so I would choose to.

In that case, the new structure seems a whole lot better. I like examples of play at the start. The introduction to roleplaying should probably be introduction to *this specific* role-playing game. Anything in excess is fluff.

I would suggest you take a look at DitV for the combination of 'chargen' and 'beginning a new game' (ending up in 'mechanics' with an introductory conflict - although your game is less suited for that). Or at Schrodinger's War, if you like.

I've already started writing up some of the introductory elements, I'd like to keep them generic, but I'm using only terms and concepts my game makes use of, explaining what my game uses them for, and indicate there are other uses not covered by this system.

Concepts I'm covering (in current order)

Characters, as how players interact with the game and world, to
-> Game Master, as the typical controller of the world and introducer of most characters, to
-> Players, who consistantly control the same characters, their actions, etc to
-> Checks, as rolls of the dice to see if what a Player wants their character to do can be done

Other ideas, such as sessions, turns, framing, etc. all have their own sections more elaborately detailing what they mean to my game, so I'm thinking on not including any of that here.
That whole relationship, GM-Player-Character and the idea of rolling for success seems a decent core block to cover for new players and allow me to expand upon with my system. For older players, its all old hat, so its a small chunk easily skipped and they don't get an impression the game is written for complete n00bs.
Least wise thats my thinking.

As long as you keep it focused on your game, that they have in their hands right now, even old hands might like it - maybe there's some gem in there that'll ease their way in this specific game. Stuff you've found to work well (or not at all) in playtest of this specific game, for example.

http://www.neoproductions.net/files/mischief.pdf

Updated with changes, caught a few additional paragraphs that I hadn't reoriented, more of an "intro" section. The "Beginning a New Game" needs some additions I feel, but I'm going to drop in my AP writeup and see what work it needs beyond that. Also, following Jaspers initial idea and Tobia's example in the Shrodengers War draft, I took a few examples and dropped them into their own text box, which was shaded to set it apart, helped make them stand out as "Read this!" in my opinion.
Still playing with the headings and font sizes to get something I like.

I also hope this version does more to illustrate my functions of a GM in Imps- Tobias saw several traditional modes in this, which don't actually appear in play. The GM introduces the story, but does little overall to guide it aside from reigning folks back into the game and acting as arbitrator should a dispute crop up not covered by the dice (which honestly covers a lot).

Again, rip it to pieces, I insist ^_^

Much better, IMHO. Some remaining pointers:

Re-read for language.

I would (still) make the Terms chapter more specific to this game - fr.ex. 'Check'. And make the definition of Dungeon Master in the Terms chapter a bit less 'traditional'. (You could, for instance, compare him to the player that always does the rules-reading and explaining of boardgames to new players).

You mention both 'there is no absolute right or wrong way to play', but you also mention 'in a good game'.

Instructions on 'what to read' should not be placed so far into the text - certainly not after the pieces of text that have just been read anyway. ('Beginning a new Game')

Better feedback to the reader what he'll be reading (guidance through the text).

There is still vagueness (in order of speech, acting, etc.), but that will be a LOT clearer with the play example, because people will fill in the blanks you don't want/need to explain with their own conclusions.

All right, I'm feeling really good about this draft.
Got the example dropped in, a modified version of what happened in our first playtest, partly because I forgot quite a bit of it, partly because of some minor changes in the rules between that play and the final draft.
Also restructured some of it, have the Introduction before the Play example.
I also cleared out any references to "a good game", and hopefully eliminated that dual-idea (standard for "good" vs. no one way to play).

I'll probably be reading it over another twenty times before I go to bed today, but here's the current draft:

http://www.neoproductions.net/files/mischief.pdf

Nate,

I did not read the text. My comments are solely on appearance.

1. Please add page numbers.

2. Remove the elipses in the table of contents, or use "." as fill before all page numbers.

3. The paragraph style is inconsistent. It would look better if you fixed this. For example, under "About the Imp Game" there is no vertical space between the 1st and 2nd paragraph, while there is a line of space between the 2nd and 3rd paragraph. Also the initial paragraph indent varies in size, e.g., see the definitional paragraph for "Character."

4. It looks like the bulleted tabs are equivalent in length to the initial paragraph indents. I prefer that the space after bullets be shorter than other indents or tabs.

5. The two bulleted points, "Activating Traits" and "Raising Target Numbers," may look better as sub-headings without the bullets.

6. If you plan for this to be a printed item, make sure that there is sufficient additional white space added to the inside half of the pages.

7. Did I mention page numbers?

Julie

Updated to account Julie, thanks for a look!

1) Been waiting to add page numbers for the moment, but hey, went ahead and did it anyway. Anyone mention Word is a bitch for laying out your own page count? Massacred a formula to get it, however, and it works ^_^
2) Elipses gone

3) Isn't that the paragraph style is inconsistant, just that theres one or two that I missed in the formatting. Believe that was the last one.

4) Played with those, hope its more to your liking.

5) I think I'm going to stick with those. The sub-heading is "What you can do with these points", the bullets being what can be done. They're found under Guts Points and Praise Points actually.

6) Printing this via RPGMall's services, 4.25x5.5, RPGM recommends a 1/4 inch margin whereas I have a 1/2 internal, 1/3 exterior. I should be okay.

**Edit** Forgot to mention, the PDF may look a little odd in comparison to a print version. Printed properly, the pages will actually be on opposite sides as they are on the PDF- can tell that by the page numbers, which will fall on the external edge when printed. That might be why the margins looked wrong.

Nate,

I think the introduction as it is now is a little confusing, especially to new players. The reason for this is all the "in other RPGs" bits and references to traditional roleplaying that are unnecessary for playing the Imp Game.

For example, why explain what "3d10" means if the game only uses d6s?Why write "2d6" and not just "2 dice"?

If you give a description of what a GM is on page 3, and on page 6 you write that the role of GM in the Imp Game is different, this only makes it less clear what it is the GM is supposed to do.


Another point: Page 7, about Scene Framing, it doesn't really describe scene framing. It reads more like traditional "encounters" to me.

--Jasper

I'm with Jasper (except on the scene framing bit, I don't have an opinion on that right now).

Good point on the dice, I hadn't really thought of that. Quick fix, however, just rip the 2d6 explanation from the terms and switch all references to "two six sided dice".
GM was a similar fix. Was able to remove a handful of such references without affecting the overall blocks of text, so that works.

As per the scene framing, A) I'm not sure how else you can describe it and B) From what I can tell, the passage jives the with the glossary definition and my own use of scenes on and off stage. (...A GM-task in which many possible Techniques are used to establish when a sequence of imaginary events begins and ends, what characters are involved, and where it takes place. Analogous to a "cut" in film editing which skips fictional time and/or changes location. A necessary feature of System.)

The important point I wanted to drive through was players didn't *HAVE* to play out walking from the dungeon to town- "Let's go to town!" "Okay! So we're sitting outside town in the bushes next to the road." Is such a quick way. Elaborate and eloquent? Nope. Functional, yes. You have the location (Outside of the town, in the bushes), you have the present characters (The Imps), and they're hiding.
Major difference is scene framing, to whatever level it is used, can be performed by anyone, not just the GM (who would be doing it as a player anyway)

Hi Nate,

You're right, it IS difficult to explain.

From the game text:

“Scene Framing” is a technique by which you can skip entire sections of down time if you don’t want or expect anything to happen,

The important point I wanted to drive through was players didn't *HAVE* to play out walking from the dungeon to town- "Let's go to town!" "Okay! So we're sitting outside town in the bushes next to the road." Is such a quick way.

The best time to end a scene and start a new one is when the action in game has nearly drug to a stop. At that point, anyone can take over narrating actions as usual and begin explaining what happened over the course of the span of time, leading everyone up to the new moment.

Okay, got you now. I know what I want to say, and the text says it (I read the glossary term and the SF entry from the book as similar) to my mind, but not to yours.

Lets try this...

Like in television or theatre, use of Scenes can allow players to have action going on in several places, or times, at once. Their use in play is similar to their use in theatre: each scene consists of a time, place, characters, and can include additional details important to the action going on at the moment.

One use for scenes is to skip “downtime”; situations, such as traveling, that are not expected to contain anything interesting, engaging or “fun”. Doing this can allow players to skip from one important event, such as receiving orders to raid and loot a sorcerer’s tower, to the next, showing up at the tower, ready and waiting to loot it.
Another use can be to focus attention on another group of players in games where not all of the characters are together. Many of these are considered to be occurring at the same time as what happened just before, such as with “Meanwhile, back at the dungeon…” situations.
Setting up a new scene can be useful simply for keeping everyone in the game. If one or more players have exhausted their resources, setting a new scene after the characters have rested can allow the group to reset their resources while providing a reasonable explanation in game for their renewed vigor.
Finally, scenes are an excellent way to control the starting and stopping of a session or scenario. Ending a scene on a climactic note or after an important revelation can act as a cliffhanger just before a break in play, bringing the players back with more enthusiasm and excitement for what will happen next.

Any player can set up a new scene as long as none of the other players have anything else they would like to accomplish in the current scene.
The current scene should close as neatly as possible, if necessary leaving only important events or loose ends to deal with. This way, players are not entrenched with small details and can focus more on playing in the new scene than remembering little details from the last one.
To keep the game interesting, the player framing the new scene should try to give the other players as much material as possible to bring them into the new scene. He or she should introduce the location, indicate when the events take place (either how much time has passed, if the events are occurring concurrently with the previous scene or if it is a flashback), which of the characters are involved, and any important actions occurring at the moment.

Its done! Its done! Its PDF Published and available! WOO!

I just wanted to get that out of my system. I was looking for a meaningful place to post something, but lacking that I realized I had this layout thread still on the first page...

Check it out ^_^ http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=4760

Nice to see it up! It's funny though, that there's no automatic link to the RPG.net review. You might want to talk to someone about that. -Could be because the review is filed under "The Imp Game--Mischief and Mayhem" with the double-hyphen rather than colon.

Auto links up does it? Hm. Guess I will have to speak with someone!
Got it up yesterday finally (took like a week :P) before my weekly Twilight events, got back around 2 or so after seeing Revenge of the Sith, so I got press releases out and hit the sack- OFF TO THE RESEARCH CAVE!