This industry’s not big enough for the lot of us, but I’ve saddled up my latest game design attempt anyway. This one’ll be cheaper than a penny ante, but hopefully folks like it just the same.

Inspired by the sheer boredom of a recent “real life” business trip and a re-watching of one of my favorite flicks, Unforgiven, I’ve been tinkering away at an honest to god Western game. Not surprisingly, I’m working on some mechanics with playing cards.

Just as a preface, yes, I know it’s been done before. I don’t know a whole heckuva lot about Deadlands or other similar games or mechanics. Don’t care. If I’m duplicatin’ something, chalk it up to ignorance or horse thievin’. They’ll hang a man for either one, but what the hell. Also, this is a rough draft, written up just tonight! That’s my way of saying it ain’t complete, but I thought I’d bounce it off everyone to see if I’m on the right path.

DUST DEVILS: A Truly Gritty Old West RPG

Characters (Hombres to ya’ll down Texas way)

Characters have four attributes: Hand, Eye, Guts and Heart. Average attributes rank around 2 or 3, with 4 or 5 being quite good.

Hand represents physical action, i.e. anything a character does with his hands or body. Hand covers everything from the brawn needed to knock a fella into next week to the finesse required to rope an outlaw. (Hand is associated with the playing card suit of Spades.)

Eye measures a character’s senses, perception and intellect. Eye might test a character’s ability to sense a canyon ambush or challenge his knowledge of Apache traditions. (Eye is associated with the suit of Diamonds.)

Guts reflects a characters vigor and health as well as his courage and cool. It take Guts to take on the whole Bolivian army, and it might take a lot of Guts to keep your shootin’ hand steady with a .45 round in your thigh. (Guts is associated with the suit of Clubs.)

Finally, Heart gauges a character’s social competence as well as his heroic -- or perhaps villainous -- nature. Heart makes the ladies swoon, and it sure comes in handy when you’re trying to convince the town to fight the railroad’s thugs. (Naturally, Heart is associated with the suit of Hearts.)

Descriptors

In addition to the four attributes above, all player characters have two figurative descriptive to highlight their most obvious qualities. In true Western style, these are written as similes. “Touch as Nails” or “Dumb as a Post” and so on. When a character tries to overcome a conflict, he earns an extra card in the Deal if he does so in a way that emphasizes one of his two descriptors.

An example: Dylan “Bang” McCreedy is strong as an ox and crazier ‘n a shithouse rat. Should McCreedy need to free himself from underneath his fallen horse, he’d get an extra card because using brute strength in this way matches his “Strong as an Ox” descriptor perfectly. Similary, if ol’ Bang McCreedy decide to waltz into the bank to rob the place with a lit stick of dynamite in each hand, he’d get a card for his next obviously crazy action (and perhaps his last!).

Knacks

Players also select a half dozen knacks -- skills at which their characters are proficient. Knacks have a rating from 1 to 4, with 1 being a novice and 4 being a expert. Knacks can be any suitably narrow skill. Examples include: Shootin’, Ropin’, Readin’ ‘n Writin’, ‘Rithmatic, Trappin’, Ambushin’, Politickin’, Safe Crackin’, Ridin’, Blacksmithin’, Dancin’ ... You get the idea.

Devil

Finally, every character’s got a Devil. This is that ugly side you don’t want the preacher to know about. Devil is that element you’re trying to fight, good or bad.

A good example of a Devil is something that stays with a character, no matter how often he tries to solve the problem. It could be that drinkin’ leads him to ruin, and he just can’t seem to turn it down. Or it might be that he’s a wanted man. Whether the character committed the crime or not, the law’s after him, and he’s always looking over his shoulder.

A poor example of a Devil is something the player might be able to “solve” neatly in one or two sessions of play. For example, it might be just too easy to say a characters Devil is “Get revenge on the sonnuvabitch that killed his wife.” Should he do just that, well, he might just as well settle down and see what all this mail-order bride hub-bub is all about.

A character’s Devil may come into play as part of a conflict. When it does, the Devil may result in a modified number of cards for the Deal. For example, if a character whose Devil is that he’s a mean drunk, he might lose cards whenever conflict involving liquor comes along. Say he’s trying to impress Sally at the saloon. Thanks to fifth of whiskey he just downed, Sally’s not as like to go upstairs with him, ‘least not without a couple dollars. The game master might decide to deal two fewer cards in that case. Conversely, our boy might earn a couple more cards in the Deal should he need to walk across the same saloon during a firefight. A little liquid courage never hurt the ol’ Guts attribute.

RULES

The Deal

Whenever players encounter conflict during play, the Dealer (a.k.a. the game master) deals a number of cards (from a traditional Poker deck, including Jokers) to each character involved, possibly including his own non-player characters or “situation hands.” Success hinges on beatin’ the Dealer at his game, The highest Poker hand in a conflict is the “winner,” and progressively better hands indicate increasingly extraordinary success.

The number of cards dealt depends on the conflict. The Dealer determines which two of his players’ four attributes best applies in every situation, and he deals a number of cards equal to the sum of those two attributes.

The Draw

Players can improve their character’s hands with Knacks. For each dealt hand, players can draw back up to a number of cards equal to the character’s relevant skill rating, but at least one card from the original dealt hand must remain.

Call

When all players, including the Dealer, settle their hands, the Dealer calls and everyone shows his hand.

For situations pitting character against character -- like a shoot out -- highest hand between two sides (i.e. two combatants) wins. Keep in mind that the dealer plays non-player characters’ hands.

In situations pitting a player character against some challenge -- like scaling a cliff face, for example -- the dealer sets a difficultly number for the encounter and draws that number of cards. The dealer might also elect to make situations more challenging with a “draw” difficulty, so the situation can draw back cards just like a skilled character does. In these situations, the character must beat the situation hand to overcome the conflict. So, in the case of climbing a cliff, the player need a better poker hand that the situation’s dealt hand to scale the rock face.

Note: Just as in Poker, without a pair or better hand, high card wins. Also note that Jokers act as Wild Cards.

Fastest Tongue in the West

It wouldn’t be the Old West without some tall tales to spice things up. In every conflict situation, description of the event falls on the single player with the highest single card in his hand. In many cases, this will be the player with the highest winning hand. However, even the lowest poker hand may yield the Ace of Spades, for example.

The player who describes the hand takes into account not only who “wins” and “loses” the conflict, but also what poker hands they won or lost with. This should color his description. Extraordinary hands -- like a Full House (Three of a Kind coupled with Two of a Kind) -- indicate dramatic and exceptional events, while winning a hand with just a single high card indicates a relatively mundane or routine success for the character.

Hazards and Damage

Characters who lose combat conflicts or other hazardous challenges lose attribute points. Compare the “hand” that beat the character in the round. Subtract a number of attribute points equal to the number of cards in the winning hand. The player subtract the points as desired from the attributes related to the suits played .

An example: “Lucky” Luke Cavanagh isn’t living up to his name. A rival gunslinger shoots at him, playing three of a kind in the hand to do it: the Five of Hearts, the Five of Clubs, and the Five of Diamonds. Lucky loses three points from his Heart (Hearts suit), Guts (Clubs suit) and/or Eye (Diamonds suit). Lucky’s player subtracts the three points of damage as he sees fit. He can subtract 3 from a single attribute, or subtract 1 point from all three attributes if he chooses.

When Jokers constitute part of a hand, subtract damage only from the suits played in other cards. In the above example, if one of the gunslinger’s cards had been a Joker, “Lucky” Luke would have subtracted 3 points from his Heart (Hearts suit) and/or Guts (Clubs suit).

It’s All Right, Ma (I’m Only Bleeding)

It’s important to remember that while player lose attributes, the “damage” inflicted may not be grievous. It’s up to the describing character to give his account of the injury or reason for attribute loss. For example, if Lucky’s player decided to subtract one point from each attribute “hit” in the example above, the describing character might say the gunslinger’s wild shot grazed Lucky’s forehead. The blood trickling into his eyes explains him losing a point of Eye. Getting shot at explains his reluctance to carry on, which explains the loss of Guts, and the ugly wound makes him a gruesome sight to everyone, hence the loss of Heart. He may look a bit worse for the wear, but maybe Luke is lucky after all -- the wound could be worse.

Alternatively, the same hand could be described a bit more comically. Say the describing player says the gunslinger’s wild shot knocks down a chandelier that falls on poor Lucky’s head. The loss of a point in his three attributes is a reflection of his being a bit dazed by the event (loss of Eye and Guts), not to mention more than a little embarrassed (loss of Heart).

Here lies Lester More ...

When a character reaches zero in all attributes, he’s finally cashed in his chips and gone to the great open range in the sky, or down into the fires of Hell should his Devil get the best of him after all.

That there is a right fine core ma'friend...

Check out this old idea of mine; I accessed some of the same concepts you use (especialy the poker hand), but threw in a betting mechanic.

A hand of cards can represent any number of differtent things... an entire combat for example.


Anyway, here is the beans thread from a while back. Feel free to rip it clean of goodies.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1286&highlight=beans

I like the tall-tale bit. You know the cowboy narrator in 'The Big Lebowski'? I have an image of four people like that sitting around a camp fire, spinning yarns.
It'd be an interesting modern-day game. You create modern characters, but pretend you're a bunch of hardened old cowboys narrating these folks' tale.

See, Nomad, you're right on there, but then I'd have to change the name of the game to "Branded!" ;)

Actually, I thought about the Dude, Walter and the cowboy narrator a couple of times making this. Strange that The Big Lebowski would be an influence, however strange! Fuck it. I'd have to make some bowling mechanics to make that really work!

Other movie influences: Jim Jarmusch's Dead Man, Tombstone, Unforgiven (as I mentioned), Pale Rider, High Plains Drifter, Outlaw Josey Wales, The Good, The Bad and the Ugly, ....

You need to make a rule tht indicates someone has to die if anyone plays a "dead man's hand" (full house - aces over eights I believe).

,Matt

I considered that actually.

Actually, a dead man's hand is not a full house, aces over eights, but two pair of aces over eights. You were quite close!

I guess I figured the likelihood of someone getting such a hand was too small to warrant the rule, but I may still include it.

This looks mighty fine, hombre! Maybe now I can resurrect my mercy-killed sorta-Deadlands campaign... I shudder every time I think about those rules. :)

Have you playtested this yet? I just printed myself a copy, going to work up a character sheet and maybe try it out this weekend with my brother.

Thank ya kind stranger,
Sean

unodiablo wrote:
This looks mighty fine, hombre! Maybe now I can resurrect my mercy-killed sorta-Deadlands campaign... I shudder every time I think about those rules. :)

unodiablo wrote:
Have you playtested this yet? I just printed myself a copy, going to work up a character sheet and maybe try it out this weekend with my brother.

I would love to see a playtest/semi-finalized version of this... throw in some good eample characters, a solid set of thematic references, some sample premises (I for one believe a game can support many of these... I actully consider thematic flexibility a sign of good design), and perhaps a cool barbed-wire page border.

Hell, I'd love to work up a creeping supernatural horror campaign based on this. Deadlands was too... goofy for my tastes, but something like Call of Cuthulu meets The Good the Bad and The Ugly. Hell yes.

Or a Steampunk/Wild Wild West thing...


Or an idea that's haunted me for a while... A Town called Camalot... a sherrif named Author Pen, his golden-hired deputy Lance Lot, his buddy G.W. Wayne... An old mystic half-breed named Mad Bear Den...

and a pearl handled revolver enscribed with the name Cali Burn .

Now, see, Bailywolf, I'd call you a no good sonnuvabitch cheat if I didn't know better. You just gave me the creeps, reading my mind.

First off, I wrestled with what to "mix" with the otherwise straight western approach. The two ideas I had were:

1) Ghost Town, in which characters play Cowboy ghosts trapped in Purgatory.

2) X-Caliber .45 -- which recreates the Knights of the Round in the old west, complete with sheriff Rex Arthur and Deputy Lance DuLac.

3) Unamed -- Steampunk old west, as inspired by a recent computer game favorite of mine, Arcanum.

Bailywolf wrote:
I would love to see a playtest/semi-finalized version of this... throw in some good eample characters, a solid set of thematic references, some sample premises

Bailywolf wrote:
Hell, I'd love to work up a creeping supernatural horror campaign based on this. Deadlands was too... goofy for my tastes, but something like Call of Cuthulu meets The Good the Bad and The Ugly. Hell yes.

Or a Steampunk/Wild Wild West thing...

Or an idea that's haunted me for a while... A Town called Camalot... a sherrif named Author Pen, his golden-hired deputy Lance Lot, his buddy G.W. Wayne... An old mystic half-breed named Mad Bear Den...

Likely comes from loving the same great things. Your references hit the bull's eye with me every time. I think High Planes Drifter is one of the best subtle ghostly revenge stories ever told- relentless, brutal, and subtly creepy. While Outlaw Jose Wales is one of the best character driven movies ever made... it sits near the top of my all time favorite list.

I've been fishing for the Man with No Name series on DVD...

I can also recomend a bunch of other movies (harder to find, but they turn up occasionlay on the classic movie channels). The Two Zapata films with Lee Van Cleef ("The Man With The Gunsight Eyes!")
are over the top fun as hell Wild Wild West meets Fist Full of Dollars.

And what a theme song!

Zaaaaapaaaaataaaaa!
Niiiiiiine finered man
Foooooooour bar'rel darrenger
He's the fastest man in the west
He's the fastest man in the west

Love those spagetti westerns.

The first Django film is a revenge driven classic (with a friggin Machine gun hidden in a coffin!)... it spawned over twenty unofficial sequels.

Unforgiven is an amazing (and amazingly acurate) film; the West was really a damned dirty dangerous place... very little actual Myth.


I think a fairly low-key supernatural horror western game could kick major ass...

Try this on pardner-

A group of haunted riders, scarred, hard, and dangerous... enforcing the ideals of the Shadow Constitution- a secret document signed at the same time as the United States of America's famous social contract, but which acts as a binding agreement between the forces of The Shadow World and the Colonial splinter groups of ancient magical caballs (of which most of the founding fathers were members).

Magic is a dangerous buisness- without the proper discipline and ritualization, it eats the mind and the soul- and even a tiny bit of lore can spell doom for an isolated Western town... The ritual of magic isn't there to make it work, focus the mind, or apease otherworldly creatures, but to keep human perception of the true nature of reality from driving occultists mad.

And some shadowy agency keeps 'seeding' the untamed west with fragments of dangerous lore... Letters containing rough translations, pages torn from journals, diagrams...

Little Susie gets a letter from Charlston... no return, but the handwriting is her grandmother's... but the strange little ryming poem it contains doesn't seem to make any sense... but sure is catchy... and when the rest of the town begins treating Little Susie as if she were their queen and godess... what does an 8 year old girl do with absolute power over a townfull of adults?

When Reverand Jakes recieved a parcel from his brother, he was pleased to find an antique bible- in Greek no less! A bit of a damned nice gift... shame he don't speak no Greek... but actualy... after looking the book over, the Greek wasn't that much harder than Latin...hell, after a time he took to it as easy as English. Some of the verses were phrased a bit different, some of the comandments strangly distorted... and when he preaches them... they town starts acting them out.

There are rumors of a Ghost Bull; a half steer, half buffalo all dead white. It jumps barbwire fenses as easy as a deer, and studs every cow it can find. When the heffers birth, the calves are horrors, hungry not for milk, but for tears, or the last breath of children, or for the sight of a man degrading man.

Movie reference: Django.

Book reference: Riders of the Purple Sage.

Comics reference: Jonah Hex (the original series from the 70s).

Best,
Ron

Gawd damn, but that .pdf looks mighty fine!

Quite playable. Makes me feel like a lazy schlub. But damn fine.

Why no betting mechanic?



Also, had an idea for an occult tinged game...

Your standard pack of cards is related to the tarot deck- it lacks all the Mojor Arcana except for the joker (knave or fool in the tarot)...

What if the players and the major NPC's instead selected one of the major arcana, then the relationships between a particular suit and that arcana figure could figure into scene setting and dramatic resolution.

So basicly, the characters take the place of the Major Arcana while the cards represent not just a random generator, but also a casting of tarot cards... in each action a key thematic relationship could be drawn which could complicate the plot further...

A bit obscure, and would certainly require some more solidification, but perhaps intresting... each play of cards would then act as both story seed generators as well as fortune mechanics...



a bit of a lark...


But I'm itchin' to play it!

Bailywolf wrote:
Gawd damn, but that .pdf looks mighty fine!

Quite playable. Makes me feel like a lazy schlub. But damn fine.

Why no betting mechanic?

Bailywolf wrote:
But I'm itchin' to play it!

chimera wrote:
I haven't yet decided whether to include or yet figured out just how to handle a betting mechanic. I'm mulling some ideas that let players place wagers for chips, which they could then use to expand or improve character abilities, knacks, etc.

I'm not sure I'd put a betting mechanic in the rules at all. Dealing out a poker hand for resolution is a great technique but not exactly fast, especially with drawing additional cards. I think that adding a layer of bidding to the process may slow down things too much.

In fact, for "quick resolution" one might want to strip it down even further, to that other classic cowboy game...High Card. Modified for game mechanics deal a number of cards equal to a knack or trait. High Card wins.

Hi folks,

As a general principle, I suggest avoiding inserting new mechanics for any reason besides a driving actual-play mechanics need.

Adding Color to the existing mechanics is another thing, and that might be cool.

One more movie reference: No Name on the Bullet (Paul Czege recommended this one to me and it's one of the finest westerns I've ever seen)

Best,
Ron

Ron, you make a good point. I don't want additional rules to weigh down the game. That is, I don't want ideas that make the rules cool, I want rules that make gameplay cool. I think that's what you're getting at.

The talk of gambling mechanic has got me thinking, however. Right now, I'm mulling over how to include some sort of mechanic to improve/advance characters -- namely their knack and attribute ratings, for example.

Right now, I'm leaning toward a very simple mechanic I'm calling "Stakes." For dramatic or significant conflicts only (a showdown with one's archrival, for example), the Dealer announces the Stakes of the hand. Very simply, I think this will be one or maybe two points a player can earn to improve his character's attributes or knacks. If the player's feeling particularly bold, he might go "double or nuthin'," wagering to earn two points should he win the hand, or give up an already earned point should he lose (obviously, he must have earned points to do this).

Stakes points might also be used capture a round of narration. So, players can spend a point (that they earned previously and saved) in any given round and describe the scene, even if they don't have high card. I'm also thinking about making this a sort of "fate point" mechanic that lets the player's character avoid any ill effects, but he must describe the scene of how he miraculously avoided injury.

Any thoughts, folks?

That I like a lot. It gives the GM the ability to explicitly state "climactic scenes". You need to use poker chips or loose change for this that you can "throw into the pot" to signify the stakes. The player could then "raise" by taking some of his previously won stakes and add them to the pot, forcing the GM to "call".

Plus, the stakes wouldn't necessarily have to be "improvement points". The GM could throw alot of things into the pot. They could be mechanical like points of "hero point" variety where they can be spent to draw extra cards etc. One interesting feature of some games of cards is the ability to chose the Wild Card for that hand. Perhaps part of the stakes could be winning point that could be used in this way. After looking at the initial deal, a player who spends a point can name a wild card for the hand.

But Stakes could also be "story oriented". The stake for this hand is Five Dollar Jimmy will tell you where the bandit hideout is, or Lucy the dancer will take a fancy to you. The player could then raise saying "No, if I win this Hand Five Dollar Jimmy will lead to the bandit hideout", or "Lucy will completely fall in love with me". The GM can decide what the PC must add to the pot as his bet.



Unrelated to the above but on the subject of rules in general, be sure to provide a rule that gives the GM the ability to grant a bonus card or two for good roleplaying or for having a second knack that kind of related to the situation at hand, that sort of thing.

Also a great use for "Damage" would be to give the players an option. Instead of using the Damage, the player could elect to take an advantage or give a disadvantage. This would translate into extra cards for an advantage or fewer cards for a disadvantage. For example in a fight, if I win a round with a pair, instead of doing 2 damage to my opponent I might describe how I threw a chair at him and now he loses two cards from his next hand.

Valamir wrote:
You need to use poker chips or loose change for this that you can "throw into the pot" to signify the stakes.

Valamir wrote:
Plus, the stakes wouldn't necessarily have to be "improvement points". The GM could throw alot of things into the pot. They could be mechanical like points of "hero point" variety where they can be spent to draw extra cards etc.

Valamir wrote:
But Stakes could also be "story oriented". The stake for this hand is Five Dollar Jimmy will tell you where the bandit hideout is, or Lucy the dancer will take a fancy to you. The player could then raise saying "No, if I win this Hand Five Dollar Jimmy will lead to the bandit hideout", or "Lucy will completely fall in love with me".

Valamir wrote:
Unrelated to the above but on the subject of rules in general, be sure to provide a rule that gives the GM the ability to grant a bonus card or two for good roleplaying ...

Valamir wrote:
Also a great use for "Damage" would be to give the players an option. Instead of using the Damage, the player could elect to take an advantage or give a disadvantage. This would translate into extra cards for an advantage or fewer cards for a disadvantage.

I don't think this is really necessary, because that's exactly what damage does -- it subtracts from the opponent's abilities, which decreases the number of cards he draws. Remember, the attributes determine how many cards you're dealt, then knacks determine how many you draw back.

You might want to elminiate the term 'damage' come up with something more colorful... er.... here is a fair place to look:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~poindexterfamily/OldWestSlang.html


Basicly- when you include in 'damage' any kind of setback- your talking about consequences.

In my house rules (QAD- they evolved here on the boards), I describe three levels of consequence:

Minor- these don't last past the scene

Major- these last for a good while; days, weeks, months... they get better though.

Critical- these are permenant, and can only be recovered by improvement. Maimed limbs, missing eyes, insanity, shattered confidence that leaves you a seven-day drunk with a hand shakes like a rattler's tail... or just pushing up dasies.


Something like a bar-room brawl in a typical western would be Minor consequences unless someone whips out a knife or something.

A running gunfight or knife fight would be Major consequences (death for mooks, real injury for major characters)

A duel- two men draw, one man falls- would be Critical. Only if every party is willing, can a Critical contest be entered into. The risk of character death is here... but in this genera, characters never die accidentaly. Only be willingly agreeing to a Critical situation can major characters be rubbed out... or have the chance to rub out their enemies.


Perhaps by eliminating the idea of 'damage' you can better capture what loosing in differing situations actualy translates into.

Ron Edwards wrote:
As a general principle, I suggest avoiding inserting new mechanics for any reason besides a driving actual-play mechanics need.