Spawning again from this thread (and from a thread on Vincent's blog a while back), I don't think I've ever asked people to analyze the source of their Faith. I haven't got any. I was raised with no religion. If you do the God thing on Saturday or Sunday or dance around campfires naked, it's all bizarre to me. I don't think animist paganism makes any more sense than Islam. And because of it, I'm completely baffled by the certainty that people have about their religion. Any help out there? Specifically:

Why do you think you know? How often have you made pretty dramatic shifts in belief? Is there any presentable evidence for what you believe (and should there be?)?

Thanks,

Chris

The only two things I'm sure about is the idea of a higher power and that of an afterlife.

Higher power? The belief struck me when I was in 2nd or 3rd grade and reading a science book about atoms, of all things. The fact that our world seems so well crafted just struck me as a clear sign that it couldn't be accidental. Although now I'm aware of scientists pointing to the idea of spontaneous complexity and such, it still doesn't jive with me. Maybe it's just an irrational self defense mechanism on my part, but hey, that's how I believe it. I think I'd probably sit closer to Deism or Intelligent Design in those regards, but I don't believe folks ought to be forcing it down kid's throats- after all, basic science got me my belief...

Afterlife? Let's just say I've dealt with a lot of weird stuff, like knowing the moment my dad died across the country hours before anyone called me... I woke up in the middle of the night and could feel someone in my apartment. It was crazy. Other weird stuff as well.

Everything else has been conjecture :)

Hi Chris,

I think I know there's "something" because the evolution theory just doesn't convince me. And I somehow believe in God despite myself. See, I grew up a lutheran protestant. Yet the more I learned about the history of my religion and the origins of its sources, the less satisfied I was with that.

Then I married a woman, and realized too late that she wasn't the one for me. So what do you do when your religion tells you you must not get divorced, but you know it'll make you forever unhappy if you don't?

So I turned my back on Christ and the bible. Yet I find myself talking to God, thanking him if something goes well, defying him if I get fucked up. I really can't tell you where this feeling He's out there comes from. I have reasoned with myself that since I do not believe in "nothing", I should become an agnostic or something, but belief won't listen to reason.

- Frank

Faith is different from religion.

For me, religion is... y'know... that stuff you do to expose yourself to opportunities for faith. Welcoming communities, beautiful churches, pushing yourself to extremes (fasting, exertion, etc.), swelling music, inspiring texts, and the like, those are good tools for religion.

Faith is something else, that grows from the loam of your life and flowers at strange hours. When you look at the world and see meaning rather than emptiness and hope rather than despair, that's faith.

Personally? You want to know what inspires me to a sense of faith? There's a scene in the first Spiderman movie. A building is on fire, a woman is trying to get in and a fireman, who totally understands why she's doing what she's doing, has to be the one to step in front of her and stop her. "My baby!" "Lady, I can't let you in there!"

It is hopeless. It is bleak. It is the utter, implacable tragedy that we all know exists in the world, and that we all desperately fear. "The sea is so large, and my boat is so small." And then there's a guy in blue and red spandex swinging in to do what couldn't be done.

I know it's geeky, and you're welcome to mock me for it, but that moment is what faith is about for me. Not the guy in the tights, but what he represents. The certainty that, though tragedy abounds in this world, the world isn't about tragedy. That though hopes can fade, hope is immortal. That the world is, at core, good.

Proving it isn't the point. Feeling it is what you need. Wherever you get that from in your life, I call it faith.

I am an extreme rationalist who periodically falls off the religion wagon, but I always come back to some core belief. I'm a member of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), and the particular branch that I participate in is very personal and egalitarian, which appeals to me very much. I have had profound spiritual experiences while sitting in worship with other Friends, and that is the empirical evidence I can't ignore. Sure, it may be psychological, but it is most definitely there. Philosophically, I'm not really Christian, but that is something that I can reconcile with my religion because Quakers believe that every person is in direct communication with the divine, and that it will lead each person in the way that is right. I follow a more Daoist philosophy, that there is a Way to everything, and that you need to figure out how to stop fighting against it and instead work with it.

TonyLB wrote: I know it's geeky, and you're welcome to mock me for it, but that moment is what faith is about for me. Not the guy in the tights, but what he represents. The certainty that, though tragedy abounds in this world, the world isn't about tragedy. That though hopes can fade, hope is immortal. That the world is, at core, good.

I realized after a while that, while I don't believe in any sort of religion (though like Frank, being from the same place, I was raised and confirmed Lutheran Protestant), I do believe in some fundamental things like human dignity and absolute values. And life and sentience are so amazing, I can't understand them simply in terms of biochemistry.

So I ultimately found that I fit in very well with the Unitarian Universalists. I plan to be more involved on that front in the future, when the toddler gets a little older.

I'm an omnitheist.

I believe every myth structure ("religion") in the world has something important and valid to say about the human condition.

I've burned sacrifices to Athena,
I've been baptised in Christ's name,
I've celebrated Passover,
I've prayed to Odin,
I've danced for Buffalo,
I've killed the Buddha,

but I haven't walked the Haj. I want to, but I don't think the current political situation will allow me to in my lifetime.

Anonymous wrote: I'm an omnitheist.

I believe every myth structure ("religion") in the world has something important and valid to say about the human condition.

I've burned sacrifices to Athena,
I've been baptised in Christ's name,
I've celebrated Passover,
I've prayed to Odin,
I've danced for Buffalo,
I've killed the Buddha,

but I haven't walked the Haj. I want to, but I don't think the current political situation will allow me to in my lifetime.

I used to go to church 3 weeks out of 4 on average, but then I had a baby who really, really needs her morning nap.... still managed Easter thi year, though.

I'm a practicing Episcopalian (pronounced "Anglican" for anyone not in the US or Scotland), which is kinda-Protestant-but-not really. My mom was one (Dad was highly assimilated Jewish) but we didn't take it all that seriously until I started going to an Episcopalian school; I had various doubts and struggles during adolescence, mostly based around "well, it's unfair that someone else should die for my sins, and kinda patronizing too"; and on Christmas Eve, 1991, while attending the evening service mainly for the music, I decided I needed all the help with my sins I could get and walked up to the altar to take Communion.

Christopher Weeks wrote: I'm completely baffled by the certainty that people have about their religion.

My faith is about 5'8" tall with green eyes and white hair, broad shoulders, and he carries a katana.

Jason L Blair wrote: My faith is about 5'8" tall with green eyes and white hair, broad shoulders, and he carries a katana.

I have no Faith, but I like to think that I know pretty much about it. Always messing around all kinds of religions, I am. Let me tell you what I've learned about Faith:

I stopped considering religion seriously some time in middle school, when my personal ethical development progressed in radically higher-spirited directions than Lutheran christianity, which is the default fate hereabouts. I simply couldn't take it all very seriously, when totally agnostic philosophers (Kant, primarily, which I always read areligiously) could explain morality much better than the church, which in the final calculation is just for kids - go to hell if you don't behave and all that stuff, doesn't really help you to understand the reasons behind ethics. With time this drift became rather discernible, even to a dullard like me. Reading and experiencing different convinctions, I came to consider Christianity much in the same way Nietzche does; nowadays I much prefer "barbarian" virtues of honor, spirit and strength to meekness.

Years later, I've found many admirable religions with much higher ethical standards than Christianity (asatru and satanism pop to mind). However, meanwhile my analytical eye has grown more mature, and I've yet to see a religion that isn't analysable as a system of ethics combined with a system of aesthetics - my current stance on the matter is that religion as cultural activity is essentially about arguing morality based on aesthetic principles. In other words, religion is art, which does exactly that. Now, I much prefer to indulge in my art in honest form, so I've kept out of religion. I fully understand that people get a high from religion; I myself get the essentially similar visionary experience from good art, so it doesn't really matter to me if people want to enjoy themselves while believing in fairies. I'm much more worried about the ethical teachings of those religions, especially as the major religions tend to be those that really just cater to base impulses instead of requiring high ethical standards.

The point: Chris asked about how Faith is born. My convinction is that all faiths you're likely to meet are a result of a strong aesthetic experience. Art can make people experience all kinds of things, and if there's a social context and a philosophy attached, it becomes a major force in molding a human. Then it is very easy to interpret the experience as spiritual, even if an areligious person would classify it as aesthetic. This is especially so for people who don't habitually have those aesthetic experiences - it's hard to realize that there's nothing religious in it if you only ever enjoy feelings of majesty, community and peace in a religious context.

Hi Frank,

The way I look at it, is, unless Jesus himself or God him/her/however you want to call it, decides to come to you personally and tell you divorce is bad- the only thing you've turned your back on is ideas produced by people, nothing more.

If we're talking any of the three religions of the Book(Judaism, Christianity, or Islam), then a great deal of the holy books are loaded with laws, which, I consider secular, but you may or may not. After all, someone may correct me, but I don't recall where in the Bible it forbids polygamy between the Old Testament and New Testament... :)

My belief is that anyone's personal relationship with higher powers, spirits, or what have you is just that- personal. A lot of people have pushed secular and personal desires as "holy" in all religions, and down the line it gets codified.

Chris

Christopher Weeks>

I doubt that anybody's answer about their faith would really satisfy you because you are asking people to express in conscious terms something that is beyond consciousness. In my experience, the only accurate explanations or representations of faith I have seen are in metaphor. Even they fall short at times. So, I can't really answer your question in the way you probably want me to answer it.

One thing I've learned, though, is that faith is not belief. At least not in the sense of what people believe. It is more like how people believe. In my experience, faith is akin to trust and hope. However, instead of a person or an event, you put that trust and hope into "the mystery." I call it mystery because of its inherently incomprehensible nature. You can call it God; you can call it karma; you can call it chance; you can call it whatever you like, but you recognize that this force (for lack of better terms) makes things happen.

Faith is not forceful, but yielding. Faith is Yin. Faith is a lump of clay. Faith is a bowl or a cup. Faith is good plumbing. Faith is a womb. Faith is your trachea. Faith is wind chimes. Faith is all around you.

The expression of faith is not limited to churches, temples, shrines, or synagogues. It is in Central Park where two old men play a chess game, each staying still for long moments, waiting for the best move to reveal itself to them. It is in a laboratory where a scientist is experimenting to make a discovery, over and over again, hoping for that "Eureka!" moment when it all comes together and makes sense. It is in firefighters who enter a burning building to save people they cannot see from the outside. It is in everyone who has ever expressed hope or trust in things they cannot understand.

Suffice it to say, I know many people who have strong beliefs but weak faith.

I believe in a benevolent higher power that suffuses the entire Universe. God.

I believe that rational human beings have a choice whether to believe in God or not.

I do not believe that the fact that they have this choice is accidental.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S. Because I'm physics trained, this ties into Quantum Mechanics for me.

I started out as the typical Southern Baptist. Until age 14 or so. I had some pretty serious differences with our Youth Ministry and our Youth Ministers in particular. I think the parting words were if I ever showed myself at their church again they were going to kick my ass.

That pretty much ended my relationship with organized religion. Since then I've wandered all over the place. I've been part of a very hush-hush Wicca group. Taken part in preparations to (no joke) bring about the reign of Cthulhu on Earth. I've made deals with my ancestors. They're still not so happy with me. I've went into a very pragmatic relationship with Anubis. I've studied Buddhism, Hinduism and Gnosticism pretty extensively. But I subscribe to no one particular belief system.

Perhaps the most productive spiritual point in my life was when I was doing shamanic work. There are a number of things that happened during that time for which I have no real explanation. My current living situation makes it near impossible for me to do much of anything

So, to answer your questions as best as I can...

Why do you think you know?

I was baptised Catholic and went to Sunday school, but I asked too many questions. I figured if they were scared of asking the questions, let alone the answers then religion wasn't the place for me.

I don't mind if other people see a spiritual dimension to life, much as I don't mind that they don't support the same football team as me. Both make about as much sense to me. So when my wife says I have no soul, I say, "that's right, I don't."

I also have a strong feeling that any morality that comes, no questions asked, from a book is not moral. Morality is about asking questions. As such I don't believe in anything, I theorise and rely on evidence.

Sigh... In defense of organized religion (and not targeting anyone in particular):

Yes, blindly taking ethical and cosmological ideas from a book or other authority without questioning is a bad idea that leads to needless suffering.

But so is saying "the last 4,000 [or more] years of human experience have no lessons for me, therefore I will ignore the texts and doctrine that attempt to codify said experience." Smart people have been thinking about good, evil, life, death, family, government, and so on, in a religious context, since ... well, since people were thinking. There are some wheels here there's no need to reinvent.

The Episcopalian/Anglican catchphrase for this balancing act is "scripture, tradition, and reason": God gave us sacred texts (through the inspiration of flawed and human writers), but He also gave us brains to think about them, and countless generations of people who thought about them before us and might have a thing or two worth listening to. If you throw out any of these three elements, you're missing something important.

Sydney Freedberg wrote: If you throw out any of these three elements, you're missing something important.

I'm a practicing Jew, raised by my parents and clan in the religion. Some of these questions strike me as odd, and make some assumptions about the nature of religion (as opposed to the nature of particular religions).

Christopher Weeks wrote: Why do you think you know?

How often have you made pretty dramatic shifts in belief?

Is there any presentable evidence for what you believe (and should there be?)?

Supernatural events can also be interprited by anyone.
Take myself ^_^ Or my family actually.

We're almost living on the *edge* of the supernatural. Looking back through my family, speaking with parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, great aunts, great uncles, great grandparents etc. I've learned a rather cool thing: each generation on both sides, one of the kids experianced a portion of their lives where they had a number of unexplained coincidences, premonitions and visions. And, come to find out, of my parents families, they each were the ones who had the experiances. And now, my brother and myself have a nice set of the unexplained floating about us.

Now, here's the interesting part: on my mothers side, its a strictly German/Lutheran upbringing, and a strong one at that. Myself, I was baptised and confirmend Luthern.
My own faith was shaped pretty heavily when I was three. I had a pair of deaths that must have struck me hard, as my parents had me seeing a grief councilor through the hospital for several months. Before the counciling, and indeed after, I had numerous conversations (that I recall having, but not what was said) with an elderly woman in my home. She was either my great-grandmother or the prior inhabitant of the home, I don't know. Pleasant old lady though, I was never scared or worried.
From that point, all my upbringing in the church was tempered by a knowledge of the truth in an afterlife and acceptance that hey, we're human, the important part isn't the exact words or phrases, but the concepts behind them. I will, on occasion, cite a passage in the Bible as a counterpoint, but only as I'm discussing the books with someone who feels they are better versed than myself.

Through life, I've always been one step ahead of almost everyone and everything, knew where I was supposed to be and what I was supposed to do. Through highschool, I was the school councilor- I'd get folks on MSN I didn't even know asking for advice because, for whatever explicable reason, I just knew what would work.
My junior year, everything in my world literally changed. My fathers employees turned on him, destroyed the agency he worked at for my entire life, and framed him for medicade fraud. In the aftershocks of that I had the typical "If there is indeed a God, why the hell did this happen?!" reaction- the loss of the agency triggered a breakdown in my dad, almost destroyed my parents marriage, and all sorts of other wonderful shit. All I could ask was "What now?" - To which, I recieved answer, after answer after answer.
For around a good year and half, I was seeing the future of my friends during some really turbulant times in all of our lives, and every prediction I had, every dream and vision I saw came to pass. One that bothered me was a vision of a destructive storm on the horizon and it took me a long time to work it all out. In the meantime, I helped a couple friends survive their own hell, helped my mother deal with her own issues, became "linked" with a girl I had a crush on and felt every pain she did (who in retrospect was rather unstable and that was a damn painful experiance.)Woke up one night thinking I was having a heartattack, exact same time she was embroiled in a hellish, heartwrenching situation with the guy she was seeing.
It was about that time I finally knew what the horizon was- I looked at my mother one night and said someone from my class was going to before graduation: it wouldn't be because of something they did, and it would be a well loved, truly decent person.
Months passed after that, it took a lot to finally break that "link" (including "God, what the HELL is going on?!"), tried my best to look past the visions and just graduate, and still kept recieving them. Last one I recalled was extemely vivvid and involved me, at college, meeting up with a girl I already knew from an HS sport. I saw exactly what she was wearing and knew she had long dark hair, but never saw her face. Lots of other specific details arose about the school, which I later noted in my own journal (which I kept for about 3 years).
Graduation night came, got to the school, and everyone around me is crying...sure enough, "Dark horizon" came to pass: childhood schoolmate, well liked by EVERYONE, was involved in a car accident on her way to the school for the ceremony. She flatlined at the scene but was stablized and shipped to another hospital for trauma...and died two weeks later. After that, I had another of my many conversations with God, asking him to stop sending me whatever it was that he was sending, hurt too damn much, and sure enough they stopped.
That fall, started college, met up with an old acquaintance from HS who soon became more and about three months into our relationship I unearthed my old journal entry about that last vision...it described her to a T, as well as our first couple months of being together. From construction on the college that started that summer, to plays she performed in the pit for, to clothes that stood out: a leather jacket and sweatshirt, each for their own reasons. After a number of years of botched relationships before that, the girl I finally click with was the one God showed me in my dreams.

Say what you will. I don't need to believe, I KNOW that there is a force in the universe looking out for us. My visions showed me things that were the result of human choice, but allowed me to help those people make better choices or simply comfort them and lend strength when it was something beyond their personal control. I know this force as God: Father, Christ & Holy Spirit, and it answers to it. Maybe it is something else, using my upbringing and preconceptions as a means to communicate or maybe it honestly is the God I believe it to be. What I know with certainty is that its out there, its watching, and it acts, but not always in ways we comprehend.

I was born to an ex-Fundementalist Baptist, read a TON of myths/world religions, then started going to the Unitarian Universalist church in 3rd grade. It always fit, especially the part where serious questioning / investigation of ideas is actively encouraged, and being really interested in other's experience and POV is valued.

For me, faith/religion/spirituality has lots to do with the interconnectedness of life, people, ecosystems, economics, etc. We're absolutly part of something bigger, even if that bigger is only the ecology of the planet.

If I accept that I am part of 'something bigger', then I have to accept that the well-being of some parts of the 'bigger' affect the well-being of other parts, and therefor that my actions matter. I also sometimes think of it like ripples in a pool of water: what I do has impact I cannot fully percive. If I am calm and friendly as I wait in line (which I hate doing!), then the experience of the others around me is also more clam and friendly. That may mean they leave a little less rushed, and maybe they treat the next person they interact with better. Also, it's not always conscious on my part.

Here's the story: When I was a baby, my Mom had a neighbor she disliked. The neighbor was everything Mom wasn't as a parent, but, in that weird way of new parents, they hung out together some anyway. The other mom had had 3 or more children removed by DSS for neglect, and her current kid wasn't getting a much better deal. Spanking and TV and soda was the default. So, when she came over, Mom would use that time to make all her La Leche Leauge calls, chatting with other moms about breastfeeding, reading to kids, etc. We moved in a few months, and Mom didn't keep in touch.

Years later, Mom was an out-reach worker for Planned Parenthood. She went up to a door and knocked. The woman who answered was obviously just up from nursing a baby, and an older child was playing with blocks on the floor. After a short time, the woman said "You don't remember me, do you?" Mom did not. It was the same woman, who had listened to what Mom was telling the women on the phone, and watched how mom was with me, and when she had her next baby, she decided there must be another way, and she set out to learn it. Her kids were with her, she was happier with her parenting, and Mom hadn't even been trying to effect change.

Some peolpe call that the random chaos of life. That's fine too.

So yeah. Plus, how can you taste maple sap fresh from the tree and not feel the rush of Life in your veins, glad to have lived through another winter?

Wow, Meguey, that's a cool story. Thanks.

Scott

I'm not saying don't read scripture, or the Koran or the Kalevala, but question what you read.

greyorm wrote: Particularly American atheists, who tend to believe that all religions are basically like fundamentalist Christianity, but with different hats.

James Holloway wrote: Well, in all fairness, American atheists spend a lot of time thinking about fundamentalist Christianity because it's fundamentalist Christianity which is the biggest immediate problem for them.

quot;greyorm"
So, I guess what I'm saying is that one had definitely better question "Skeptics Weekly" or whatever would-be secular authority books you happen to read as well because atheists, despite, their claims about rationality and informed questioning, are (in general) very ignorant about religion in general. Particularly American atheists, who tend to believe that all religions are basically like fundamentalist Christianity, but with different hats.

greyorm wrote:
Steve, I'm not sure if you realize this or not, but that statement comes across as insulting. The belief underlying it seems to be that religious people are all a bunch of blind, ignorant, unquestioning sheep, that religious people don't question what they read.

That's four fairly large, well-known religions who DO question their religious writ as part of the practice of their faith.

Particularly American atheists, who tend to believe that all religions are basically like fundamentalist Christianity, but with different hats.

Ultimately, I agree with the sentiment, so, yeah, read stuff and question it! But additionally, by the gods, read it! Especially those of you who think you've got this religion thing and these religious people all figured out, and like to talk down to the religious as though they are children.

The post immediately above was by me, but under a guest account for some reason.

greyorm wrote: Steve, I'm not sure if you realize this or not, but that statement comes across as insulting. The belief underlying it seems to be that religious people are all a bunch of blind, ignorant, unquestioning sheep, that religious people don't question what they read.

greyorm wrote: Think about it: neopagans don't even HAVE a sacred book, they don't have priests that tell them what it's all about, all they get to do is think about things!

greyorm wrote: Then there is Bhuddism, where one of the primary tenets of their faith is to question everything, including every tenet of their faith! And it is not as though Bhuddism is some minor religion on the world stage, with only a few million adherents, that you shouldn't know this (and I haven't even mentioned Reformed Judaism or Unitarians).

greyorm wrote: Particularly American atheists, who tend to believe that all religions are basically like fundamentalist Christianity, but with different hats.

greyorm wrote: Ultimately, I agree with the sentiment, so, yeah, read stuff and question it! But additionally, by the gods, read it! Especially those of you who think you've got this religion thing and these religious people all figured out, and like to talk down to the religious as though they are children.

greyorm wrote:

Note: certainly not all atheists are like this, but the idea holds for (American) atheists as a group and is supported throughout much of their literature, regardless of the differences of individuals.

Hi folks, wooly minded proto-druid here!

My faith? Ick, if I can call it a faith, probably comes from memetic programming, with possible genetic predisposition, tending towards a psychological need to develop a relationship with a transcendant entitiy.

Combined with a finely developed appreciation of the possibilities and acheivements of humanity without recourse to the transcendant, and a generally cynical nature...

Do I believe in God, or gods? Yes, for a given value of "deity", essentially on a Universalist bent. Do I believe in worshipping a deity? I believe in respecting and appreciating the universe and everyone and everything in it, more or less, is that worship? I don't believe in giving some anthropomorphic entity "big up yerself, I am nothing, you are everything".

My version of Druidry is a way of forming and exploring a relationship with the non-human world and the unconcious, often through religion as metaphor.

Gareth, I have put away my doctrinal marxism as a childish thing and taken up a religion...

Note: This is not moderation. It's the Birthday Forum.

This is going to go nowhere.

I'd like to extend a big middle finger to contracycle. I don't think this'll cause a big rift; he and I have exchanged middle fingers before, I think.

My own take: I often say I have a two-track mind. There's the rational part of me who can easily see the fallacies and untruth of believing in something invisible and all-powerful. Then there's the other half of me who needs that, craves it, and believes wholly in it.

I finally came to the realization that it doesn't matter if (a) God empirically exists. Whether it does or doesn't, a God of some sort affects millions of lives daily. People kill for one. People die for one. Families split apart, and families come together for one. A God of some sort gets people to put down the bottle or get off drugs. A God of some sort changes peoples' lives tremendously.

I don't care anymore if (a) God exists. I know that He or She is real.

That's my faith.

Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
I don't care anymore if (a) God exists. I know that He or She is real.

Oh yes - certainly the idea of god causes things to happen in the real world.

The very religious Mr Blair and the very religious Mr Bush, being as they were so righteous in the eyes of god, appear to have been supremely confident that whatever atrocity they committed would be the right thing.

Religion is dangerous not just because it makes people believe in sky-fairies, but also because it trains a non-rational thought process; one informed by alleged, presumed, unverifiable, moral stances and criticisms; and of course exhibits groundless hero worship, as the wailing throng around the dead reactionary in Rome demonstrate in all their glory.

Hence, even if one does not really care about the ultimate existance of god, the existance of *religion* is still a bad thing and should be tossed in the dustbin of history. Because they are social structures that teach hero-worship (in the form of holiness), irrationality (in taking morality as some sort of force) and intolerance (in teaching special revelation and chosen status).

Religion is not merely an opiate of the masses, it is also a pollutant.

One thing I find troubling is the assumption that one person should/must believe in only one thing/way/etc. It seems that, any way you cut it, the beauty/flaw of the human animal is to be adaptable enough to be able to hold onto two or more contradictory viewpoints or fundamental beliefs at the same time. It's not hypocricy, it's the human brain, human experience.

In my case, I am a hardcore atheist. I am also hardcore Theravada Buddhist. I also believe in God.

Unfortunately, this beauty/flaw is often infuriating when seen in others. Ex: GB Steve's example of the hardcore Christians that don't read the Bible. Or George Bush, who can say "Culture of Life" after Terry Schaivo, but supported (probably still does, I dunno the record) state executions in his tenure as governor (no matter how much the executed changed, or were repentent, since their crime). Or how those Catholic priests could molest little boys.

The human brain's a pretty fucked up thing.

Here's a situation I imagine happening in the past:

Picture a time before religion. Then someone comes up with this idea of religion, specifically in a sense of non-rational hierarchy. Some people glom onto this, others don't. Those that glom eventually decide to kill the ones that don't. Thus, the ones that glom (the ones predisposed to non-rational religious thought) are the ones who pass their genes on to the next generation.

Every generation that passes, same thing. Those that question are selected less than those that accept the whole religion thing. These people that accept it probably have the whole moments-of-faith thing, they are swayed by oratory, they have the predisposition to turn beliefs into dogma, etc.

We are their legacy. Perhaps the reason why people these days are so predisposed to religious events, sudden conversions, even feeling "in touch with (deity)" is a direct result of our ancestors committing holy war against those who questioned, who were willing to live and let live. The neophobe vs. the neophile.

Just goes to show that the "Fittest" isn't necessarily the "best."

Lxndr wrote: Here's a situation I imagine happening in the past:

Picture a time before religion. Then someone comes up with this idea of religion, specifically in a sense of non-rational hierarchy. Some people glom onto this, others don't. Those that glom eventually decide to kill the ones that don't. Thus, the ones that glom (the ones predisposed to non-rational religious thought) are the ones who pass their genes on to the next generation.

Every generation that passes, same thing. Those that question are selected less than those that accept the whole religion thing. These people that accept it probably have the whole moments-of-faith thing, they are swayed by oratory, they have the predisposition to turn beliefs into dogma, etc.

We are their legacy. Perhaps the reason why people these days are so predisposed to religious events, sudden conversions, even feeling "in touch with (deity)" is a direct result of our ancestors committing holy war against those who questioned, who were willing to live and let live. The neophobe vs. the neophile.

Just goes to show that the "Fittest" isn't necessarily the "best."

contracycle wrote: Which is also pretty much fair enough. The specifics of the doctrine are lesser differentiations than the commonality of superstition and credulity.

I feel entitled to, as I have put away my childish things, and they still play with theirs.

I would not call myself a religious man. But I have been known to root for the Chicago Cubs.

Sigh. This is a perfect example of why certain issues just don't lend themselves well to rational discussion(politics, religion, race, gender issues, etc.)...

For any given view, there are people who have their view, mind their business and don't go around doing crazy stuff. Then there's the wackos. Apply the same logic that people use when they blame rpgs when a kid does something crazy. Or rap music. Or because they're Christian. Or because they're not Christian. Or they're capitalists. Or they're communists. Or whatever.

Sometimes, the crazy shit was inspired BY a belief system, but not too many belief systems stay around that are totally based in crazy shit. I mean, we don't have entire societies that promote wanton cannibalism, or throwing babies off buildings, etc. etc.

And I will AGREE that in some cases, you have a higher percentage of stupidity that correlates to certain factors... but overall, pointing to the 15% and saying that the 100% of those people are stupid, jacked in the head, or whatever based on a seperate belief system, nope that doesn't fly.

Otherwise, we start making judgements like, "Well, Mother Theresa was Catholic, and the Catholic Church was responsible for inquisitions, and invasive and coercive missionary work, therefore, Mother Theresa, along with all the other Catholics, kidnap children, raise them in indoctrination schools, beat them for speaking their native language, and burn people if they think they're witches...."

There's wacked people in all belief systems. And definitely some beliefs promote wacked behavior more than others, but people for the most part are lazy, and "reinterpret" stuff for the least amount of hassle in their lives whenever possible.

There, I've ended the thread.




...oh, it's still going.

Look, religious/interreligious/interreligiositous discussion is a fine art. The problems I see happening here are these (which are fundamental human issues of argument, I think):

- You have the Impossible Thing Before Breakfast of religious discussion: "Everyone has their own beliefs, and I should respect that, even when those contradict mine - which, if I don't stand up for them, is evidence that I don't believe them."

- You have the idea that belief and faith somehow have to do inherently with religion, which is not true. Do you say, "I believe the sky is blue" as someone else said? No, you say, "The sky is blue." Belief assumes that what you believe in is a) arguable and b) true. The sky, in fact, is an illusion, there is no such thing; it's makkyo. But that doesn't make it less true for you as a visceral being. Likewise, if you "believe" in God, or what-have-you, you're being necessarily contrary. Those who are certain of the existence of something don't bother arguing about it, except to garner what they can of others' experiences.

- Some beliefs have in them, inherently, things that are offensive to you. Sometimes, that offensiveness comes from a direct contradiction of what you hold to be most dear. No duh. If I believe Jesus to be fictional, should I argue that to you, who believe Jesus to be the Lamb of God? Only if we agree on these very stakes beforehand: I want to understand what you think/feel/believe/know and you want the same from me. If my goal is to convert you to my belief (or vice-versa) it indicates that either I think you're not smart enough to recognize the truth when I lay it down for you, or, more likely, I'm secretly trying to convince myself. See the item above.

- Assertion of belief is not evidence. If you belive, with all your heart, that the sky is blue, telling me that you believe so does not matter to the discussion: only evidence does. Take a picture, quote someone you know I respect in the matter of sky blueness, measure it and share your data. Belief is a personal thing. It's your nervous system talking with itself, making sense of the Universe. That doesn't translate well to words, but if you want me to understand where you're coming from, you have to use symbols we share, not convince me with the power of your conviction. This is obviously a difficult position when one's religion is based in faith and belief, but do your best.

How often have you made pretty dramatic shifts in belief?

Is there any presentable evidence for what you believe?

(and should there be?)?

Well, for my Lutheran confirmation, I got this elegant cross, and my grandfather gave me a pretty substantial gift of cash. For high school graduation, our neighbor/minister gave me a men's devotional. I don't think that little shot of communion wine counts as free booze. All the holidays are pretty secularized these days, so I don't think those count...

Oh, you said presence. Nevermind...

(Apologies to Gilda Radner.)