Topic: Centralized Sales Data
Started by: Ben Lehman
Started on: 4/7/2005
Board: Connections
On 4/7/2005 at 7:16pm, Ben Lehman wrote:
Centralized Sales Data
So a few publishers (Half-Meme, Dog-Eared Designs, and Ramshead, at least) have either publically released their sales data or have announced their intention to do so.
I was wondering -- would publishers be interested in a collated, centralized comparison of sales data? I can't promise serious analysis (ask Ralph, Mike or Walt, maybe?) but I'd love to be able to compile it in one big chart, and post it up somewhere, just for new publishers to get an idea of what they're getting into.
yrs--
--Ben
On 4/7/2005 at 10:28pm, b_bankhead wrote:
why not?
I've never been able to understand why these teensy , vestpocket rpgs companies are so secretive about this data, like they had the secret to perpetual motion or something. It seems to me the field as a whole could benefit by actually know what is going on out there.
On 4/11/2005 at 3:59pm, jdagna wrote:
RE: Centralized Sales Data
Part of the hesitation might not just be secrecy. I personally don't want to make that information available for two primary reasons:
1) it's nobody else's business
2) it would take a fair amount of time to collate all that information in a format someone else could read and I have more important things on my plate.
I wouldn't mind contributing anonymous data for use in some sort of analysis or comparison, especially if someone told me exactly which numbers they needed and in which format. If it's information I could pull quickly from my accounting program, I'd probably pitch in.
On 4/11/2005 at 4:29pm, Bob Goat wrote:
Re: why not?
b_bankhead wrote: I've never been able to understand why these teensy , vestpocket rpgs companies are so secretive about this data, like they had the secret to perpetual motion or something.
Or maybe they are forgetful or busy paying bills or something... ;)
Ben I would be more than happy to share my sales information and think a comprehensive business analysis would be beneficial to all involved.
Keith
On 4/12/2005 at 3:13am, Valamir wrote:
RE: Centralized Sales Data
jdagna wrote: Part of the hesitation might not just be secrecy. I personally don't want to make that information available for two primary reasons:
1) it's nobody else's business
2) it would take a fair amount of time to collate all that information in a format someone else could read and I have more important things on my plate.
I wouldn't mind contributing anonymous data for use in some sort of analysis or comparison, especially if someone told me exactly which numbers they needed and in which format. If it's information I could pull quickly from my accounting program, I'd probably pitch in.
Hey Justin, just wanted to ask if you wouldn't mind posting some more on your reasons. I could wax on a good bit on why 1) it is everbody's business and in our collective best interests to share, and 2) how I track my numbers so that when it comes time to compile the data its pretty simple. But I'm rather more interested in hearing your thoughts on why you'd want your data to be anonymous.
Compiling all of the data in one place would be a pretty useful resource once there was enough. A large enough database could help new publishers judge how large of an initial print run to try, whether there were any patterns in number of sales in distribution based on format, how PDF vs print sales compare for games offering both, etc.
It might be a bit difficult to get the data reported consistantly. For myself I identify 3 different kinds of sales based on how much of the purchase price I get to pocket. Direct sales I pocket the whole thing. Third party sales I pocket half. And distribution sales I'll pocket 30-40% depending on arrangement. For the data to be useable it would really need to be broken out on those lines (or similar) because otherwise the volumes would be hugely misleading.
On 4/12/2005 at 4:07am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Centralized Sales Data
Hiya,
Bill, I'm puzzled by your perception of secrecy. My perception is exactly the opposite - that the larger companies present completely dressed-up or misleading reports (i.e. how many books were moved to distribution, which is trash data), and that the mid-level wannabe companies are totally silent because they all operate at astounding losses, whereas the small independents are pretty forthcoming, and frankly, pound for pound far more profitable.
I don't publish Adept Press accounts out of sheer incompetence in terms of programming/presentation, and the fact that paving the way into the (profitable) wilderness was a very difficult and often records-sketchy job. If you're interested, the company currently makes several thousand $$ a year. I haven't tossed in a dime of outside funds since the original startup.
Best,
Ron
On 4/12/2005 at 5:02pm, lumpley wrote:
RE: Centralized Sales Data
I'm just plain incompetent, also sketchy. I'd be happy to release my sales data though, approximately, if approximately is good enough. Ben, what numbers would you want?
-Vincent
On 4/12/2005 at 6:25pm, jdagna wrote:
RE: Centralized Sales Data
Valamir wrote: Hey Justin, just wanted to ask if you wouldn't mind posting some more on your reasons. I could wax on a good bit on why 1) it is everbody's business and in our collective best interests to share, and 2) how I track my numbers so that when it comes time to compile the data its pretty simple. But I'm rather more interested in hearing your thoughts on why you'd want your data to be anonymous.
There are a few reasons why I'd prefer anonymity. One of them is that there's no small number of customers who e-mail or call me with the impression that I've got an office and a handful of employees. It's kind of flattering to the ego, as much as I'll readily tell them that we're not actually anywhere near that big.
Beyond ego, I think the image of success often produces success. A lot of people hesitate to buy my games because they worry that won't find anyone else to play with. If they have a perception that I'm larger than I really am, I think that has to affect their decision. It then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: they think a lot of people have it, so a lot of people buy it, and then, yes, a lot of people do have it.
And, finally, a lot of gamers have no business sense whatsoever. I don't want someone looking at my numbers and saying "So, if you had a blank white cover, you could have saved me $5 on the book I bought?!" I'd honestly be forced to kill such a person and I know they're out there. Gamers often act like having bought a product entitles them to an opinion on how a company operates. As I see it, the less they know, the fewer things they'll have to complain or speculate about.
My tax numbers also show up as large losses, but I'm claiming a lot of legitimate business expenses that I'd be spending money on anyway. Heck, I'm going to add an addition to my house for an office/computer room. This is something I want anyway, but because it's a legitimate business expense, I can potentially write off all $30,000 in construction costs on my taxes through it. So my perception of the business' value is not necessarily going to show up in the numbers without a lot of explanation that would require sharing my personal finances as well (like what my tax bracket and annual refunds are). I could always doctor up a set of financials that deduct these combined business/personal things, but is that still a useful set of numbers to other publishers, then?
Anyway, even sales numbers are something I don't share with everyone based on this lack of business sense. For some people, 100 books sounds like a lot; others are stunned to hear that RPG publishers sell less than 10,000 of anything. (Yes, I've actually met that person; he thought RPGs were excluded from the traditional best seller lists just because they were games and that moderate titles routinely sold 100,000+ copies). I'm happy to educate these people one on one, but I wouldn't want to just throw out numbers that might be misinterpreted.
With all that there, you can probably see where I get my points 1 and 2.
But like I said before, I'd share information with someone as long as the results were made anonymous and as long as I could provide the requested numbers with a reasonable amount of work. I have shared detailed information in the past with a variety of publishers or would-be publishers, with the confidence that the information won't become public knowledge.
On 4/12/2005 at 7:37pm, Matt Wilson wrote:
RE: Centralized Sales Data
Hey Ben:
You're welcome to all the data I have posted on my site, and if there's anything else, just PM me.
On 4/13/2005 at 12:35am, abzu wrote:
RE: Centralized Sales Data
I'm game.
-L
On 4/13/2005 at 5:33pm, Ben Lehman wrote:
RE: Centralized Sales Data
Justin -- I'm not implying that people ought to share sales data, only that as a starting publisher I'm very curious as to what sort of money an indie-publisher brings in.
Everyone Else-- Wow! Thanks a bunch.
I'm going to work up a standardized questionnaire, though I'm happy to fill it out for you if you've already provided the information. I'm thinking roughly something like:
When did you game debut?
What cons did you sell it at?
What advertising did you do, other than participation on the Forge?
Do you participate in RPGnet discussion?
International/Domestic Sales
PDF/Print sales
Profit
I'm thinking about doing the records monthly.
Any thoughts?
yrs--
--Ben
On 4/13/2005 at 6:07pm, matthijs wrote:
RE: Centralized Sales Data
As the Forge's Resident Ranting Reviewer, I suggest you include data on what game reviews appeared when. I believe they have an impact on sales, and it'd be interesting to see whether that's true or not.
On 4/13/2005 at 8:19pm, abzu wrote:
RE: Centralized Sales Data
good suggestion, matthi!
-L
On 4/14/2005 at 8:12pm, Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
RE: Centralized Sales Data
Anvilwerks enters the fray!
My 2005 Q1 sales data is right here. Data for previous time periods is nearly non-existent.
On 4/14/2005 at 8:55pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Centralized Sales Data
I'm kind of surprised by the number of publishers who have sketchy sales data. It makes me a tad bit worried that perhaps things like state sales taxes and Corporate Taxes / Schedule C Forms (for sole proprietorships) aren't being filed properly.
Strictly speaking that's none of my business, of course, but since its tax season and I've spent the last couple of days hammering through my Schedule C for business profits to include with my 2005 tax return, its at the top of mind.
On Schedule C you have to report your beginning Inventory balance and your ending Inventory balance in order to calculate your cost of goods sold which is a key line item on the form. Sales revenue, of course is also important and its necessary to take into account any discounted sales prices if using fulfillment houses or distributors, plus any money charged for shipping. If you get paid via paypal those charges are all deductable, as are the actual incurred shipping costs.
All of which, it seems to me, requires some pretty accurate and detailed sales records be kept...so keeping the records needed for tax reporting pretty much should provide the data needed for tracking sales...
As I said, none of my business, but I certainly hate to think that some folks might be opening themselves up to a nasty tax audit over a couple of hundred dollars in net taxable income...and that's not even including state sales tax reporting which can be a double whammy.
I'm happy to share the processes I use if anyone is interested. I'm not a CPA but I'm moderately well informed on how this works.
On 4/15/2005 at 3:43pm, nikola wrote:
RE: Centralized Sales Data
For those who are Pyramid subscribers, there's an article over there this week by Chad Underkoffler about publishing your game and not going broke. It's called Monkey Mutterings.