OK. I just got a copy of The Shadow of Yesterday and as I am with many other aspects of this excellent game, I'm enchanted by the Key system. For those who haven't read the game, Keys are a mechanic that lets players choose the circumstances in which their characters gain experience. For example, you might have the Key of Conscience, which would earn you experience points every time you help the weak.

I wonder if I could use this sytsem with Heroquest; while I've never had any real problems with the HQ experience system, it sometimes seems a bit arbitrary. It would be nice to have an experience system with tighter parameters that also gives control to the players.

One problem is that the number of experience points awarded in TSoY, if ported directly into HQ would result in much faster rates of advancement, even if, like me, you award hero points per session rather than per (the rather elusive) adventure. I'd like to aim for about 5 or 6 HP a session and I get the feeling from the rules that in TSoY you're expected to gain something closer to 10-15 xp. I'd propose dividing number of XPs by 2.5 (rounded to 2 or 3, to get whole numbers)to get number of HP. Anytime only one XP would be awarded in TSoY, one HP per session could be awarded in HQ.

Thus the TSoY Key of Conscience:

Your character has a soft spot for those weaker than their opponents. Gain 1 XP every time your character helps someone who cannot help themselves. Gain 2 XP every time your character defends someone with might who is in danger and cannot save themselves. Gain 5 XP every time your character takes someone in an unfortunate situation and changes their life to where they can help themselves.

Your character has a soft spot for those weaker than their opponents. Gain 1 HP per session in which your character helps someone who cannot help themselves. Gain 1 HP every time your character defends someone with might who is in danger and cannot save themselves. Gain 2 XP every time your character takes someone in an unfortunate situation and changes their life to where they can help themselves.

I don't know how necessary this is, but I like it anyway.

My initial temptation is to make keys an ability, just like everything else. You get HP from your key at a rate that you'd get for an augment for a normal action (1/10th), as if it was a secret for a big action (1/4th), and equal to the rating if you buy it off. You can increase your keys with HP, just as with anything else.

So, you have Key of the Revolutionary 17 -- revolution is important to you, but not overwhelmingly so. You get 2 HP for injuring the group that you are rebelling against, 4 HP for hitting them with a major blow, and 17 for destroying them and ending the key. (And yes, 17 is a lot -- but it shouldn't happen that often, and a 17 won't just let you buy another key at 17 if it hasn't been important to the game yet and you assume keys start at 13 -- 1 point to buy a 13 and 10 to raise it by 4 at one go, and then double for not being on screen is 22 points.... however if you stage it over a couple sessions of building your new key up you could do it more easily.)

If the Revolution becomes more important to you then you can pump points into it and get more XP. My only issue with that is that it may be easier and more rewarding to have lots of little keys than to get big keys. Of course if you say that you can use keys as augments for normal actions as well that could go right away.

You could limit keys, especially if you have hopping spaz characters, but I don't know if it is strictly necessary. If they're priced so that having them gives you about as much benefit as they cost, or just a bit more, then people should still focus their HP on other skills and only put them in Keys where they are important.

Of course, another possibility is to let characters pick their keys for a story from their normal relationships or personality traits. Give it a bit more fleshing out, and then go with it -- that trait will be one of the things that gives you Xp this cycle. Want to have the Key of the Revolutionary for this story? Well take your Hatred of the Lunar Empire right there and put an asterisk beside it. Bang, it's a Key. You then give the players a number of key choices based on how spread or narrow you want their focus to be and how much Xp you want them to gain (three might be a good base number), and of you go. Then it becomes something between a TSOY Key and a Dust Devil’s Devil.

Brand just blew my mind. That Hero Point idea is awesome.

Thanks Brand, connecting the Keys concept to HQ abilities was the missing link. And, as you say, all this fussing around isn't necessary, but it might be fun to try. A couple of questions...

Wouldn't a player often choose something that had already become important to the game as a replacement Key: "I have just slain the evil overlord and now I'll take his son as my own" (Key of Revolutionary becomes Key of the Guardian and only 11 HP spent). Maybe the cost to raise a Key could be 2 points a rank.

My only issue with that is that it may be easier and more rewarding to have lots of little keys than to get big keys. Of course if you say that you can use keys as augments for normal actions as well that could go right away.

Hmmm. First, Brand's rate is simply too high. I mean, I like it mechanically, but you're going to end up with mega-powerful characters after two sessions. What I'd do is to say that you get one tenth what Brand is saying. Or, put another way, one HP is purchased with ten EXP generated from the system using Brand's version for EXP instead of HP. I think that would work about right. You could tweak this rate just as it is tweakable in TSOY to come up with the right rate for your game. A HP, then, is an "advance" from TSOY. Which works about right.

Second, I'd limit Keys just like in TSOY. That is, you have to pay EXP to get them. Rather, in this version, it costs one HP (however many EXP that costs) to make a key. So you start with 3 HP (and the build points in theory) to make keys from, and can assign them as you like. When you "buy off" a key, going against the ability, you get the 17 EXP or whatever, convert ten EXP to one HP, and can buy another key (marked with an asterisk as Brand says) with it, just like in TSOY. Or, if that's too quick, make keys cost 3 or 6 HP like powerful magic does.

Mike

Mike is dead on about XP/HP in normal rates of HQ play being to high under my model.

Of course, I usually give about quintuple the normal amount of HP in my HQ games -- as I don't run games that last long enough for the PCs to become "playas" through normal progression and have players that like to hit a high level of competence/power inside the scope of the games -- so that explains why my head was where it was.

However, I worry that they'd be too low under yours Mike. Doesn't TSOY assume 10 to 15 xp per session from Keys? So wouldn't that come out to 1 HP per session with your system? Now I know not everyone gives out 15ish HP the way I do, but 1.5 seems way too low.

Edit: Actually finished the post.

Well, I'm working from the one session of actual play of TSOY that I had in which the players each racked up about 20 EXP, I'd guess (at least one had a lot more, I'm pretty sure). And that was under the assumption that they only got 10 EXP for a buyoff. In your system, they'd get as many as 25 or 30 at a time or more later in play for a buyoff.

Now that was a oneshot, and I was angling to try to have people do buyoffs. I also set the advance rate at 5 EXP to make things really roll along. So, again, what I might do is lower the HP cost to 5 EXP. If, with buyoffs, and the higher rates for gaining EXP in general, that comes out to 1.5 times the normal rate of 20 or so, that would mean about 6HP per session. Sounds about right to me.

Sounds very much like a playtest issue to me. Want to come back to IRC and run Thomas through a session or two like this, Brand? :-)

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Sounds very much like a playtest issue to me. Want to come back to IRC and run Thomas through a session or two like this, Brand? :-)

I've responded in PM to the play idea.

As for the system, does the 5EXP rate seem right to you? Or should we try something else?

Mike

Mike, Brand,

It seems a shame to introduce a new layer of experience points to HQ. Less aesthetically pleasing somehow, not to mention something else to keep track of.

What about 1 HP across the board (invariable) for injuring the ruling group, or whathaveyou (something that'd earn you 2 or 3 XP in TSOY), the augment amount (10%) for major blows, and 1/4 for buy-off.

Wouldn't this result in fairly good numbers (to be seen through playtesting, I guess)?

Charles Wotton

This whole idea is great. I had thought of posting a question about making goals abilities and had noted the TSOY key thing but hadn't made the connection.

My question is how does this relate to the idea of defeats being interesting? That is, concretizing the goals as keys is a good idea, but then you will end up with the players trying to "win" rather than get into tricky situations which are relevant to their goals and which they'd be happy to "lose" as it adds a new layer to this theme. Example: at the moment of delivering the final blow to the Revolution, the character's great love interest turns out to be a revolutionary, leading to a major defeat.

You could take the level of defeat or victory as an indicator of HP/XP or whatever it is. The important thing is that they get into such a situation, whatever the outcome. It might even promote futile desperate efforts which are bound to fail but are romantic and inspiring nevertheless.

Sam.

p.s. I feel bad posting here and not elsewhere, but it's a half-hour break from work and my lack of intellectual understanding of the issue may indicate the presently clogged up nature of my brain.

Mandacaru wrote: My question is how does this relate to the idea of defeats being interesting? That is, concretizing the goals as keys is a good idea, but then you will end up with the players trying to "win" rather than get into tricky situations which are relevant to their goals and which they'd be happy to "lose" as it adds a new layer to this theme.

Somehow having both keys and the hero goals sounds redundant to me, and not in a good way. Almost certainly the one that was being mechanically rewarded--keys--is apt to predominate over the the one merely stated--the hero's goals.

Now, a system to make the hero's goals mechanically important sounds just fine :) The question then is do you essentially replace the goal with a key (or keys), or do you somehow tie the keys to the hero goal?

Note that on a less formal level, as a player I'm reasonably trusting of narrators to reward heroes for chasing their goals. I'd not want a rigid system that let you game the rules rather than actually use narrator judgement. But at the same time, having some system in place is apt to emphasize the importance of chasing your goals.

So I guess really here I have questions:

- keys in addition to, augmenting, or replacing hero goals?
- how do you balance the mechanical reward versus narrator judgement?

--Bryan

On Sam's point. Some of the keys are stated as conditions of success. The key of Vengeance says, for instance, "Gain 1 XP every time your character hurts a member of that group or a lackey of that person..." Not "tries to hurt" but does. But Brand is right in that the general rule is that the motive comes up in play, or the character attempts something in play (successful or not). I think some of the keys are just worded ambiguously. Given the overal principle, I think that the real way to do this with HQ is to simply make the award whenever the ability is used, even as an augment. That, of course, requires it to be appropriate to the situation as ruled by the narrator.

Thus if you make "Loves Whashername" a key, you don't have to define the nature of the key, it's just whenever that's appropriate to play and gets used.

Bryan - well, I've always thought that the fact that goals don't have mechanical rules behind them linking them to HP was a problem. It's amazing how quickly players lose sight of their goals sometimes in HQ, because there's no mechanical rule. I think that's what we're doing here, actually.

I mean a player could, in theory list goals, and then not have any abilities related to those goals, but that would seem very odd to me. The players will, choose keys that will propell them towards their goals. In fact, I think with this you could simply eliminate goals, as they would become redundant, yes. Or keep the goals as a way to make a larger verbal statement about why the selected keys are selected. You could simply say that the narrator can rule out a payout if the use does not apply towards a goal. Which would simply result in the two things co-inciding. That is, the player would select his Vengeful personality trait to go along with his goal to, "Get revenge against Lord Voldemort."

Mike

Bryan_T wrote: - keys in addition to, augmenting, or replacing hero goals?
- how do you balance the mechanical reward versus narrator judgement?

OK, I don't have TSOY (I do think I know where to find it though). I'm not sure what conclusion is being reached here though as far as using Keys in HQ.

Are we suggesting having a player goal, and then choosing one or two abilities to be "keys". When you use it, you get XP? And how does the buyoff aspect work then?

It's easier if you check out TSOY: http://www.anvilwerks.com/src/tsoy/book1--rulebook.html

The most relevant portions are:

Keys (1)

Keys are the primary method of increasing a character's abilities in The Shadow of Yesterday. These are goals, emotional ties, or vows a character has. By bringing these into the story, the player gains experience points (XP) he can use to advance the character, increasing pools and abilities, or learning new Secrets and Keys.

Again, an example will illustrate this better:

Example

Key of Conscience: Your character has a soft spot for those weaker than their opponents. Gain 1 XP every time your character helps someone who cannot help themselves. Gain 2 XP every time your character defends someone with might who is in danger and cannot save themselves. Gain 5 XP every time your character takes someone in an unfortunate situation and changes their life to where they can help themselves.

Buyoff: Ignore a request for help.

The Buyoff shown above is a special bit about Keys. Whenever a player has a character perform the action shown in one of the Buyoffs, the player can (this is not mandatory) erase the Key and gain 10 XP.

Unlike abilities and Secrets, the number of Keys a character can have is limited. A character can have no more than five Keys at one time.

Secrets and Keys (2)

Before play, players can choose one Secret and one Key for their characters. These can be taken, like abilities, from the relevant Open, Species, and Cultural Secret and Key lists.

Keys (3)

Keys are the motivations, problems, connections, duties, and loyalties that pull on your character. To the player, they're highly important because they generate experience points. Creating new Keys may be easier than new Abilities or Secrets - they follow very simple rules.

* A Key must involve a motivation, problem, connection, duty, or loyalty.
* Keys come in two types: * Motivations. When the motivation is fulfilled in play, gain an experience point. When the motivation is fulfilled against good odds, gain three experience points. * Everything else. When the Key comes up in play, gain an experience point. When the Key presents a minor problem, gain two experience points. When it presents a major problem, gain five experience points.
* All Keys have a Buyoff, which is a reversal from the Key by the character. All Buyoffs give the character 10 experience points. This Buyoff occurs only when you, the player, wants it to happen: you can lose a battle with the Secret of Bloodlust and still keep the Secret. If you want your character to undergo a change in his personality, though, adding to the story, you can take this Buyoff by fulfilling it. If you do take the Buyoff, you can never take this Key again.

As always, see the pre-made Keys to get a feel for creating your own.
Open Keys

Key of Fraternity
Your character has someone he is sworn to, a friend who is more important than anyone else. Gain 1 XP every time this character is present in a scene with your character (maximum 3 per adventure). Gain 2 XP whenever your character has to make a decision that is influenced by them. Gain 5 XP every time your character defends them by putting himself at risk. Buyoff: Sever the relationship with this person.

Key of the Guardian
Your character has a ward, someone who depends on him for security and protection. Gain 1 XP every time this character is present in a scene with your character. Gain 2 XP whenever your character has to make a decision that is influenced by them. Gain 5 XP every time your character rescues them from harm. Buyoff: Sever the relationship with this person.

And so on.

What we're suggesting for HQ is that the general idea of Keys could be used to mechanically tie the goal into the game. One could do this by letting players take a key, or by having them use an ability (probably a personality trait or relationship) already on their sheet as a key. They would then get XP for bringing that key ability into game in plot important ways.

Has anyone tried this out yet, or come up with details of the mechanics? I might try to playtest it with my face to face group, although a couple of them are a bit new-rule shy, if I can hand them a relatively coherent mechanic.

Charles

So I presented it to an online group. I did so, in part, because in a PBEM without defined "adventures" there is no demarcation point to where to hand out HP. I thought that this would be an elegant solution to the problem.

But the players came up with some very good objections. The most important of which is that HQ already provokes the sorts of behaviors that the Keys system provokes. So it's redundant in this way. Basically people would be finding things that they wanted to do with their character, then calling them keys (or the abilities that they'd be likely to need), and then they'd collect.

Now, this would solve my problem of handing out HP. But the other problem is that Keys do limit players in terms of what responses they can have to something - well, not limit, but heavily incentivize. For example, if you have a situation in which a character might fall in love with an NPC who they have the Key of Vengeance against, well, the options with keys are to either exact vengeance, or buy it off, and fall in love. You can do both, but you'll get no reward for it. Unless you buy the love as a key, in which case you could have done so before and the situation doesn't exist (basically the hypothetical assumes that you have no points to buy another key).

So your options are channeled. Fun options, sure. But HQ is cool in that all options are just as incentivized at all times by all of the character's abilities. As opposed to just a select few. And they instinctively didn't want to give that up.

Mike