Hi there, folks. I'd like to get some opinions about the direction I should take with an RPG I am working on. When I first began this project, the system used dice like any other RPG. However, I had an idea that would take the system a step or two away from conventional mechanics. Instead of using dice, the game would use a bag of colored glass stones for a combined currency system and randomizer. Bags and glass stones are by no means proprietary. Any dice bag will do and glass stones can be found at almost any craft shop.

However, I am worried that this idea would actually turn out to be a disadvantage in the marketplace. All the players of the game would have to possess a bag of stones in order to play. That means an investment of time and money before anyone can even play the game.Eight years of working in customer service has taught me that people are great lovers of convenience.

So I would greatly appreciate other people's two cents. Can novelty overcome lethargy? Or could a game that relies on a non-standard component die a horrible death in the marketplace?

Both sides of the argument are true. But first, are you interested in sales or play? Because the reasons to buy and the reasons to play are different, and therefore you'll get different attitudes towards non-standard components as well. Consider:

Sales:
- I want to buy this game, because it's components look kewl.
- I don't want to buy this game, because I couldn't play it anyway.

Which is more likely? That depends completely on your representation and marketing venue. There is no meaningful way to give a general answer - normal polyhedrals can be considered "novelty dice" in the right environment, so there's no definite limit to what's standard equipment and what's not. People will buy even games they don't have equipment for, if they look interesting.

Play:
- This is cool, I'll have to get some components to play.
- I don't care enough about this to get the components.

After someone reads the book, it's a whole different game. They either like it, in which case they get the components, or they don't, in which case they don't. The thing is, getting those playing pieces is a relatively minor investment compared to the time and other investments (space, snacks, character sheets, whatever) the player is going to invest anyway. Thus the decision to play won't be affected by what components the game needs. Most avid gamers own a dozen perfectly normal games they've never played, so you won't get play by just having simple components. On the other hand, D&D gets plenty of play, even when it requires constant book investments, figures, battle mats, all kinds of dice, time (especially GM time) and all.

So my angle is that in reality you have much bigger worries than the component needs. They won't affect sales in most venues any more than your chosen cover, if even that. And there's a customer segment that goes for novel and innovative mechanics, so they counterbalance the possible losses, too. I know that I'll take another look at a game that uses stones for combined resource/randomizer, if for no other reason than having myself designed such a game. Compare with the generic fantasy game, which I'll pass without a second glance.

Just remember that people are going to invest plenty of time and probably some money in the game if they're going to play, whether you use strange components or not. It's worth it to them! If they like the game, it'll be dozens of hours of entertainment. You, your game and your components are minor things compared to friends, playing time, actual play and all that. A system truly worth playing more than once is certainly worthy of getting some stones for.

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One guy you should ask about this is Alexander Cherry. He sells a game which requires a friggin' roulette wheel to play. If he can do it, then so can we.

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As for bag & stones specifically... I personally would think that they're a pretty standard piece of equipment for any hardcore gamer. If they're your target audience, you're golden. Don't just expect to get much newbie market.

... that is, if the game really is better with the stones. Never design away from quality, that's my advice. If the game is as good as it can be with novelty components, then that's by golly what should be used! You can always give a dice variant, if you want to; most stone-draw mechanics can be simulated pretty interestingly by an empty random table the player fills and uses for draws. It's even better in some rare implementations (mainly ones requiring multiple bags or strange stone-switching).

Actually, look around for some posts on "Your Gods Are Dead", at least I believe that was it. Tobias of the Group Design/Shrodengers War was originally designing a game using a bag of colored tiles. He dropped it in favor of a DitV setting and moved on to SW, but he might have some insight yet as to how well it worked for him in his tests.

All the players of the game would have to possess a bag of stones in order to play.

There a lots of supplements for stones that people can use from their own homes. Rice, beans, pennies, etc. It might take a little work to mark or dye these items to represent different colors (I'm assuming they need different colors) but that's not a problem. You could also offer a virtual bead bag over the net with very little programming required.

In fact, I'd argue that it's possibly a good thing. If your system requires bags and beads, that's an extra product you can sell, which gives you one more way to make money. You don't see the cost of a WH40K army stopping them from making money. In fact, it's the other way around - most of their money comes from non-rules items. And for cheapskates... well, I once played WH40K using squares of paper with symbols written on them instead of miniatures. People who want to play will find a way.

Eero's major point is the most important though - the real investment is the time and energy to learn and play the game. Last year at GenCon, a company near us was giving their core books away and I understand that they still took books back home with them. That tells me that people considered the investment of carrying the book home and reading it more work than the entertainment value they'd get from it.

Once you convince someone to play the game, a $20-30 investment is nothing. Using WH40K as an example, most people will happily plunk down $200+ for an army and then spend a month painting it. Magic has addicts who still spend $50 a week on cards.

So, as I see it, beads provide you with a possible revenue source and their cost is not enough to stop someone who likes the game from playing.

The only concern I'd say you should have at this point in the discussion is this: do the beads add to people's enjoyment of the game or not? A lot of people like the feel of dice, for example. Or if people who play the game have problems with beads getting mixed up or lost, that might detract from it. But maybe the beads simplify math (or some other aspect) enough to really appeal to people. As long as you're confident that bags of stones improve the gameplay, I see no reason you shouldn't use them.

Eero Tuovinen wrote:

One guy you should ask about this is Alexander Cherry. He sells a game which requires a friggin' roulette wheel to play. If he can do it, then so can we.

paulkdad wrote: I'm not quite clear on this. Does each player have a different color stone? Or are you imagining that you will need so many stones to play a game that everyone will have to bring their own? If the latter, then I could imagine that being a bit of a hassle.

jdagna wrote: The only concern I'd say you should have at this point in the discussion is this: do the beads add to people's enjoyment of the game or not? A lot of people like the feel of dice, for example. Or if people who play the game have problems with beads getting mixed up or lost, that might detract from it. But maybe the beads simplify math (or some other aspect) enough to really appeal to people. As long as you're confident that bags of stones improve the gameplay, I see no reason you shouldn't use them.

Is there something in the air recently regarding glass beads in different colors used in this way? My little floor games rules ( A Cauldron of Magic beans) over in the design column also uses these components in a similar fashion...

Robert

The players can draw from the bag to create Traits for their characters. White stones create positive Traits and black stones create negative Traits. As play progresses, the GM will hand out Light and Dark (Clear and Blue) stones in accordance to the challenges and awards in the adventure.

If your going to have non-standard components, I think it helps to have some sort of availabilty of those components at your site ( even if you aren't selling them, a link to a site that does would be helpful0 or alternately provide suggestions for substitutes in your game. If you've seen the old edition of D&D that had cut-out chits to substitute for the polyhedrons, you can see an example of a game company doing just that sort of thing.

Robert

That's a good point Bob.

Although at this point Glass Stones are so ubiquitous that I can't imagine too many people not being able to find them. Pretty much every Bed Bath & Beyond, Michaels, MJ Design, and Pier One carries them now (often in a wide range of frilly frosted pastel colors), as well as most pet stores (in the Aquarium section where they've largely replaced gravel) and many Garden Centers.

As far as non gamers are considered, they're easier to find than polyhedral dice by far. So I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it.

Hearing the mechanic like this, it sounds to me like players could also use a deck of cards, with certain suits for the white/black and clear/blue colors. Or, you need more than 14 of a given color, you could have face cards stand in for the temporary cards and divide them by red/black. Players will certainly have cards already and they're probably cheaper than beads.

I think HGD's original question does point to something important:
Appearance matters, more than folks sometimes give credit to.

Colored glass beads in a bag? Well, you could use cards or marked pennies, or colored squares of cardboard. But really, colored beads are damn cool!

I think visual impressions do matter. Consider how Hasbro/WotC is marketing D&D these days. They kept the polyhedron dice and they went out of their way to emphasize the miniatures. Is D&D better for that? I dunno, but it sure has a whole lot of visual appeal. They could have just as easily gone with primarily books and a single type of die, probably a d6. But that does nothing for visual recognition.

I don't think that non-standard components are the issue. I think that having components that people associate with your game is the issue. Polyhedron dice (as a set) are still mentally "Dragon Dice" to me, even after playing many different games.

komradebob wrote: Is there something in the air recently regarding glass beads in different colors used in this way? My little floor games rules ( A Cauldron of Magic beans) over in the design column also uses these components in a similar fashion...

Robert

paulkdad wrote: This helps a lot. I think the unusual game components become a much bigger deal if everyone has to buy them. Of course, the GM could always run down to the local hobby store and get a hundred glass stones in a couple of colors, but that requires a "scavenger hunt" in order to play. If I were excited by the other aspects of the game, this wouldn't stop me from doing it, but I'd have to be enthusiastic enough to want to clear this hurdle.

This is something that I have been kicking around for a while. I think what finally kicked it over for me was when I noticed how readily available the stones were in craft shops and how cheap they are in bulk on the internet

komradebob wrote: If your going to have non-standard components, I think it helps to have some sort of availabilty of those components at your site ( even if you aren't selling them, a link to a site that does would be helpful0 or alternately provide suggestions for substitutes in your game. If you've seen the old edition of D&D that had cut-out chits to substitute for the polyhedrons, you can see an example of a game company doing just that sort of thing.

Have you had a chance to do research on the costs to do this? Also, have you considered plastic beads as an alternative ( safety concerns?).

Does anyone have suggestions where HGD can find these sorts of items at low cost?

jdagna wrote: Hearing the mechanic like this, it sounds to me like players could also use a deck of cards, with certain suits for the white/black and clear/blue colors. Or, you need more than 14 of a given color, you could have face cards stand in for the temporary cards and divide them by red/black. Players will certainly have cards already and they're probably cheaper than beads.

komradebob wrote: Have you had a chance to do research on the costs to do this? Also, have you considered plastic beads as an alternative ( safety concerns?).

Does anyone have suggestions where HGD can find these sorts of items at low cost?

Plastic beads are really cheap, although they're much smaller and generally look less snazzy than glass stones. Most bulk packages are in assorted colors. A quick search found http://www.joann.com/catalog.jhtml?CATID=101640 , which actually lists how many beads are in its bulk packs. (Most places state weight.) Joann.com has some black and white pony beads in packs of 900 for $1.88.

I'd probably go ahead with the glass stones, but maybe have a short section listing alternative methods.

The black and white beads in a pouch with your game logo on it would look very cool.

Since they're black and white, could you use beads produced for Go sets?

Selene Tan wrote: Plastic beads are really cheap, although they're much smaller and generally look less snazzy than glass stones. Most bulk packages are in assorted colors. A quick search found http://www.joann.com/catalog.jhtml?CATID=101640 , which actually lists how many beads are in its bulk packs. (Most places state weight.) Joann.com has some black and white pony beads in packs of 900 for $1.88.

I'd probably go ahead with the glass stones, but maybe have a short section listing alternative methods.

komradebob wrote: The black and white beads in a pouch with your game logo on it would look very cool.

Since they're black and white, could you use beads produced for Go sets?

Keith,

Don't sweat it. As you might have noticed, at my house I have a huge bag of glass stones. I've been using those things for years for numerous purposes. Blood Points for Jyhad (as someone else noted), bits for Netrunner, Coins for Universalis...the list goes on and on. Admittedly, I scavenged most of those stones from my mother, after she was finished with a given flower arrangement. But still, I happen to know that a bag of those stones costs about $2. A stop at any craft store or even your local Wal-mart (ward me from the evil eye) and an investment of $5 or so should provide all the stones that the average game group will need.

I bought three different colors of stones just to play Zendo (an Icehouse game). And I recently ordered $30 worth of dice just to play Dogs in the Vineyard. (I haven't played a game with non-d6's or Fudge Dice in years, and my polyhedral stock is very low. And I'm picky enough to want all-numbers on the d6's instead of pips.)

Now I'm crazy about bits and pieces, so I'm not typical. You will turn away customers because they don't want to buy a game without all the bits included. But if you include the bits, I bet that you're going to turn away even more customers because they don't want to pay for you to include the bits. (Because they may already have the necessary bits, or they can go buy simple glass stones for less than what it costs to get them with the game.)

On the otherhand, Wunderland Games did release a boxed version of Zendo with a standard set of pyramids and glass stones. So after they knew they had a hit on their hands, they provided both options... you can buy the pyramids with or without the bits necessary to play Zendo.

Dried lima beans and dried kidney beans could be used, or checkers if necessary. Inventive players will find a way to do this. One of the home-brewed games my friends and I used to play required eight colors of beads. We used plastic decorative beads that you see on fringed leather or denim clothes and accessories. You can get them at Hobby Lobby or even Walmart. We got ours at Walmart, and they were cheap and easy to find in the craft section.

I'd go with some bulk glass beads in a small ziplock bag put inside a box along with a 5.5x8.5 rules book. Slap a wrap-around color copy label on the front and back and sell it as a boxed set for $15-$20 a piece.

Of course that all depends on what your cost would be, but you get the idea.

GreatWolf wrote: But still, I happen to know that a bag of those stones costs about $2. A stop at any craft store or even your local Wal-mart (ward me from the evil eye) and an investment of $5 or so should provide all the stones that the average game group will need.

Shoot...dice shmise. Take a gander at any of the RPGNet reviews of Capes and you'll see an avalance of narrow mindedness trying to put RPGs in a box. You could put nothing but dice in a game and if it doesn't look like D&D some schmuck will tell you it isn't an RPG no matter what randomization system you use.

Welcome the criticism of fools, for it shows thou art on the right path.


BTW: Seth and I are happy to offer any insight we might into Luna...but don't you dare design it to make us happy. Design the game that YOU want to play. Not the game that you think someone else wants to play. Sometimes you need to tell even the best intentioned critics to shut the hell up.

Heraldic Game Design wrote:
Seth,

I am not at all concerned about the availability of the stones. That isnt' the issue. The issue I am brining up has more to do with the little gremlin that lives in most gamer's heads and tells them that Real RPGs only use dice. I guess that this is type of thinking isn't too uncommon among people in general...Once you find something you like, you tend to stick to it.

And once again, Ralph and I end up on the same page. Spooky...

Valamir wrote: BTW: Seth and I are happy to offer any insight we might into Luna...but don't you dare design it to make us happy. Design the game that YOU want to play. Not the game that you think someone else wants to play. Sometimes you need to tell even the best intentioned critics to shut the hell up.

GreatWolf wrote: And once again, Ralph and I end up on the same page. Spooky...

Thank you for the support, Ralph. I think that the biggest personal hurdle I have concerning game design is that I am picky

Heraldic Game Design wrote: I am not at all concerned about the availability of the stones. That isnt' the issue. The issue I am brining up has more to do with the little gremlin that lives in most gamer's heads and tells them that Real RPGs only use dice. I guess that this is type of thinking isn't too uncommon among people in general...Once you find something you like, you tend to stick to it.

jdagna wrote: Well, at least half of gamers say that D&D is all you need to run any kind of game you want... I suspect they're the same ones who insist on having dice. You're not going to please those people except by buying WotC from Hasbro.

Have you guys been in game stores lately? They all have these stones already. CCG players buy them every day.

While you're there, ask them if you can buy their Marvel RPG that used stones for 80% off retail because they never sold their original copy. You might get it.

LloydBrown wrote: Have you guys been in game stores lately? They all have these stones already. CCG players buy them every day.

While you're there, ask them if you can buy their Marvel RPG that used stones for 80% off retail because they never sold their original copy. You might get it.

Heraldic Game Design wrote: In your reply to my post on RPG.net, your answer was "Don't do it." I did take note of it because it was one of the few actual negative responses I have recieved. This doesn't make your answer invalid, however.

WalMart. $.99 Bag of 100+
Card stores, 2.99, 15-20. Found this out at GenCon when we realized we forgot our bags back home ^_^
I use them for damage counters for Final Twilight (probably going to do a "Pack" with a softback case and counters for perks. Cheap to assemble, cool to have).

Suppose this is the question: are you aiming for retail or are you aiming for self distribution & sales?
Retailers won't, as a rule of thumb, give a rats back side if the game really rocks, this much is true. Does it sell, yes or no. D&D operates on d20. Majority of hobby store shoppers are D&D players. New product, d20, likely to sell to that majority. Lloyd's point as a due one for retail sales, yes. Those with a sour taste in their mouth about one design will apply it to all future designs. "I'll never cary an indie title again! I'm up to my ears in "Groundhogs & Gophers", the quality of which sucks! Whats this? Dogs in the Vineyard? Must be another indie P.O.S! Oh look, Rodents & Rascals d20! oooo..."

But the question remains, are you designing it for retail or are you designing because its a damn cool idea that plays wicked awesome? If its wicked awesome, do whatever it takes by golly!

btw Lloyd, retail considerations don't seem to play as big a part of consideration here as they might at RPG.net. A lot of games here only see PDF release, meaning the retailers are the likes of RPGNow, Indie Revolution, DriveThruRPG, etc. A shopper at these stores is more apt to look at indie anyway, be it stones, roullette wheels or buttered monekys as the randomizer.

daMoose_Neo wrote: btw Lloyd, retail considerations don't seem to play as big a part of consideration here as they might at RPG.net. A lot of games here only see PDF release, meaning the retailers are the likes of RPGNow, Indie Revolution, DriveThruRPG, etc. A shopper at these stores is more apt to look at indie anyway, be it stones, roullette wheels or buttered monekys as the randomizer.

Retailers won't, as a rule of thumb, give a rats back side if the game really rocks, this much is true.

Heraldic Game Design wrote: In your reply to my post on RPG.net, your answer was "Don't do it." I did take note of it because it was one of the few actual negative responses I have recieved. This doesn't make your answer invalid, however. I realize what a big gamble I am taking by atempting to use something other than dice for my game. People tend to like what they like, and it is very difficult to break them out of that. I'm not going to fool myself about that. This game has a very good chance of tanking in the marketplace, but in order to have a chance of success, innovation is necessary.

LloydBrown wrote: Not true at all! Good games equal strong backlist sales. Bad games equal Decipher's LoTR. Unfortunately, they don't all realize this, and when the cash is tight, it's easier to cut back on a product that will make you $40 a year than one that will make you $16,000.

Catering to retailers is a bit tangental at this point but I'll just say from my own experience that Justin's advice about having a small audience who really likes you vs. a large audience who barely knows you applies equally forcefully to retailers.

There are a number of retailers who LOVE indie games. Many of us indie publishers who are in distribution can name names for which FLGSs stock and restock indie titles, give us prominent display racks, promote and push indie titles, encourage in store demos and so on.

Those retailers are worth their weight in gold. The rest...like the multitude of gamers who won't buy anything not d20...can blow it out their ear.

So I think the idea of "catering to retailers" is a pretty impossible and unnecessary goal. Build the best game you can, the game that gets you excited, gets your friends excited, gets outside playtesters excited, gets certain segments of the online community excited. There WILL be retailers who will stock it and happily reorder it when it sells. May not be the majority of them....but you don't have to move 10,000+ copies to be successful as a small press publisher. Put a few hundred copies on store shelves and you've got your next print run paid for easy. You only need a handful of indie-friendly retailers to do that...so don't even worry what the non-indie-friendly think.

jdagna wrote: I don't know if innovation is necessary, but finding a niche is.

The example I always use is that you're better off getting 50% of 10 people to buy than 1% of 100 people. Or, looking at it another way, you're better off with a little group of people who like you a lot than with a large group of people who like you a little. There's just too much competition out there to really appeal to a large market without a big name, budget or both.

I think you really need to focus on whether or not the stones make for a better game. If they do, then figure out how to emphasize this difference and market to the people who want it.

Valamir wrote: So I think the idea of "catering to retailers" is a pretty impossible and unnecessary goal.

You won't be alone. More and more games are going this way for randomizers. Crux, which I've mentioned to you, if/when it gets finished is already going to be paving the way for you. So I think going with the beads is a slamdunk.

But this all assumes that the game is actually better with the stones than with the dice. I think you're going about this backwards (and why no mention of this discussion on the list, BTW), you should discover if the beads would make for a good game, and then go with it if it's true. Asking if beads are a good idea, to justify whether or not build the rules may result in a whole lot of wasted time. You will only know the answer once you've looked at the rules.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: But this all assumes that the game is actually better with the stones than with the dice. I think you're going about this backwards (and why no mention of this discussion on the list, BTW), you should discover if the beads would make for a good game, and then go with it if it's true.

As silly as it sounds, I really do think some of this will hinge on whether or not the stones are actually included in the package with the game. I fully recognize that the stones are widely available, very often at the game shops, but I think there is a sort of marketing issue coming in to play here.

komradebob wrote: As silly as it sounds, I really do think some of this will hinge on whether or not the stones are actually included in the package with the game. I fully recognize that the stones are widely available, very often at the game shops, but I think there is a sort of marketing issue coming in to play here.

I have brought up the subject of the stones on the Yahoo group. I just didn't phrase it as well as I did on this thread. It just didn't feel right to bring it up again.

You know, this discussion is just going around in circles.

I suggest calling it off for a while, and Keith, now that you seem to have settled on the stones, try posting something more concrete to your actual goals next time. Like, "Ways to package stones for sale" or something like that.

Best,
Ron