Changes I would like to see in UW2:

Better explanation of the Charms: what is a charm (spell or artifact or both, well we dicussed all this in the GO UW forums about a year ago, but be sure to give your readers the answer those possible questions in UW2), how can you learn one, why you won't just teach it to your friends (since you will prolly include the infos on Secrets from DownBelow, that should be covered)

An additional map of New York, marked with the locations of the described UnderWorld areas and domains, for us Non-NewYorkers.

The majority of the artwork in UW1 is great. But please get rid of those sketchy drawings (I'm sure you can guess which ones I'm talking about), better to have fewer pictures of high quality than to boost your pic count with some not-so-high-quality ones.

A line on the charsheet for negative traits. The majority of players I know use this option.

Schreckenskäfer spelled correctly. =)

Looking forward to the new edition!

Some quick responses:

Better explanation of the Charms: what is a charm (spell or artifact or both, well we dicussed all this in the GO UW forums about a year ago, but be sure to give your readers the answer those possible questions in UW2), how can you learn one, why you won't just teach it to your friends (since you will prolly include the infos on Secrets from DownBelow, that should be covered)

Yeah, that ties into the rules for Secrets, which will be appearing in UW2. Briefly: Secrets are imbued with powerful magic, which gets less powerful as more people learn them. Charms are low-powered Secrets, which are 'on their way out'...gradually losing power. So, if you teach it to all your friends, you run the risk of completely depleting the power behind the Charm.

An additional map of New York, marked with the locations of the described UnderWorld areas and domains, for us Non-NewYorkers.

Hard to do, since a traditional map doesn't allow for three dimensions, and some of the locations are below others. I'm trying to figure out a way to represent this without having to include a dozen stacked maps. What I'm currently thinking is taking the subway map of NYC, and overlaying it with a grid, and just giving grid locations and depth in the location descriptions. Not sure.

The majority of the artwork in UW1 is great. But please get rid of those sketchy drawings (I'm sure you can guess which ones I'm talking about), better to have fewer pictures of high quality than to boost your pic count with some not-so-high-quality ones.

Yeah, the sketchy ones are being dropped, as are ones that I didn't like but got included anyway. We've got more material from the better artists, originally intended for DownBelow, and we've found some new artists as well. So, I'm afraid that you'll have to settle for more pictures of higher quality. :)

A line on the charsheet for negative traits. The majority of players I know use this option.

OK. Good idea, and thanks for pointing that out.

Back to work,

GMS

GMSkarka wrote: An additional map of New York, marked with the locations of the described UnderWorld areas and domains, for us Non-NewYorkers.

Hard to do, since a traditional map doesn't allow for three dimensions, and some of the locations are below others. I'm trying to figure out a way to represent this without having to include a dozen stacked maps. What I'm currently thinking is taking the subway map of NYC, and overlaying it with a grid, and just giving grid locations and depth in the location descriptions.

Yeah, that does make sense....and the diagram helps as well.

Problem is, that it's much more complex than that. The 'real map" top level is a map of NYC---309 square miles. Putting that into a perspective model would lose detail. The UW is also more than just a few levels deep, which would make things even more complex.

It's definitely going to be one of the biggest challenges in producing UW2.

GMS

GMSkarka wrote: Yeah, that does make sense...and the diagram helps as well.

Problem is, that it's much more complex than that. The 'real map" top level is a map of NYC---309 square miles.

GMSkarka wrote: Putting that into a perspective model would lose detail.

GMSkarka wrote: The UW is also more than just a few levels deep, which would make things even more complex.

GMSkarka wrote: It's definitely going to be one of the biggest challenges in producing UW2.

Well, I'll chime in with what I'd like in a map.

Just a map of the subway routes. I'm very familiar with the DC Metro system, enough to know its NOTHING like the ones in New York.

With the subway system being so vital to the core concepts of the game, I'd want to have a better understanding of how it actually functions. Including simple day to day type notes, like does it use tickets, or tokens, or express passes (in DC you get a magnetic strip cardboard ticket from a vending machine that carries a balance and then it debits the balance each time you ride based on what terminal you got on / off at).

I'd want a basic transit map with some caption notes on the major stops (I imagine there'd be far too many to do all of the stops). Things like "very dirty", or "right next to the zoo", or "a vender here makes the best pierogies" type of stuff.

After that the various UW locations could really just be abstracted from that "Approximately 300 yards below A train stop 37" (or however they're referred to in New York. In DC it would be "Approxiamately 300 yards below Shady Grove station on the Red Line"...which is actually an above ground station with the most available parking)

Capture the flavor of what makes the New York Subway system unique for those of us who don't really know it. Then just include a basic transit map so we can get from Queens to Manhattan with some semblance of knowledge. The rest is really just detail of the kind more suited to GURPs then UW, IMO.

Y'know, you could use an abstract system for travelling through the UnderWorld and use maps for getting the "stats" I call this "paying tolls."

Say the distance from Street A to Bus Station B is seven coins (which you can quickly find on the gridded map). But then Joe the Tagger has a navigation ability which cuts the distance to six coins. Factor in their vehicle, five coins. Then just do a flip of those five coins -- any tails that show up mean that something has happened in between here and there. A one-tail obstacle is something minor (some beastie), while a five-tail obstacle represents something major (like a cave-in).

Or something. I dunno, it's a bit like a wandering monster roll.

Fuck you, Jared, that's awesome.

I'd want a basic transit map with some caption notes on the major stops (I imagine there'd be far too many to do all of the stops). Things like "very dirty", or "right next to the zoo", or "a vender here makes the best pierogies" type of stuff.

After that the various UW locations could really just be abstracted from that

Well, that's pretty much what we had in the first edition. We swung a deal with the Metropolitan Transit Authority to reproduce the official NYC Subway map, and for the locations in the UnderWorld that we talked about, we gave brief descriptions of where they were in relation to the subway stops.

I think that just expanding what we've already got---making the map flow across two pages, so it's easier to read, for example, instead of shrinking it to one page, and adding descriptions of the stations, as you suggest above--would work for me better than maps.

UnderWorld is a fairy tale....and locations aren't entirely fixed. Plus, I'd want Conductors to be able to customize their own locations and stuff, which would be a lot harder if everything was spelled out and locked down.

GMS

Jared A. Sorensen wrote:
Y'know, you could use an abstract system for travelling through the UnderWorld and use maps for getting the "stats" I call this "paying tolls."

Say the distance from Street A to Bus Station B is seven coins (which you can quickly find on the gridded map). But then Joe the Tagger has a navigation ability which cuts the distance to six coins. Factor in their vehicle, five coins. Then just do a flip of those five coins -- any tails that show up mean that something has happened in between here and there. A one-tail obstacle is something minor (some beastie), while a five-tail obstacle represents something major (like a cave-in).

Or something. I dunno, it's a bit like a wandering monster roll.

I think it's a fine line to walk. On one hand, for non-New Yorkers, there should be some detail, to help simulate the city & below. On the other hand, Gareth's exactly right (& not just because it's his game), UnderWorld is a fairy tale/myth, & nothing should be set in stone.

I love Over the Edge, but I wish there was more in the rulebook on how to make a weird place like Al Amarja, & less on what specifically Al Amarja is like. I think Gareth could easily do that in UW mark 2--have lots of good stuff to help a GM (or Conductor) & players (since I could see a lot of the setting being created by players, along the lines of intuitive continuity) create a fairy tale/myth landscape under New York (or any big subway city), rather than lots of details of what his New York UnderWorld is like.

Key20Jason wrote:
Fuck you, Jared, that's awesome.

TSL wrote:

Key20Jason wrote:
Fuck you, Jared, that's awesome.

Now, now, Jason, you know Jared is insane as well as brilliant. He may not know whether that's an insult, a compliment or an invitation. :)

Key20Jason wrote:
Trust me, Jared knows it's all three.

GMSkarka wrote:
That's a great idea, Jared. You interested in doing some freelance, or are you just "donating" the idea for a name-check? :)

If you want to do freelance, let me know. I'll figure out the specifics on how we're handling the map-grid idea, and get that info to you so you can flesh out your 'paying tolls' idea.

GMSkarka wrote:

Key20Jason wrote:
Trust me, Jared knows it's all three.

OK....raise your hands if "Eww".

Thank you for buffing my mind's eyeball with THAT particular image.

Yeesh.

GMS

Key20Jason wrote:

GMSkarka wrote:

Key20Jason wrote:
Trust me, Jared knows it's all three.

OK....raise your hands if "Eww".

Thank you for buffing my mind's eyeball with THAT particular image.

Yeesh.

In case you missed it, that was Gareth volunteering to hold the camera.

GMSkarka wrote:
Hard to do, since a traditional map doesn't allow for three dimensions, and some of the locations are below others. I'm trying to figure out a way to represent this without having to include a dozen stacked maps. What I'm currently thinking is taking the subway map of NYC, and overlaying it with a grid, and just giving grid locations and depth in the location descriptions. Not sure.

Key20Jason wrote:
Fuck you, Jared, that's awesome.

Okay, I'm not gonna go *anywhere* near one side or the other of the whole "Eww" issue. It's just not my business. :)

A word on maps: It's not as important for me, as I live here in NYC, so I can get as many free subway maps as I want. However, including a *second* copy of the subway map, with all of the game-related details removed (ie: just the subway lines), would be nifty. Then this map could be photocopied and used by Conductors in individual games, and all manner of notes could be scribbled on it.

Just a thought. :)

*digs around in nearly forgotten databases, glad that he's a packrat*

http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/maps/submap.htm for a colour version of the same map.

Excellent resource Adam. And a damn well put together site to boot.

How about more like a subway timetable, Jared? Kinda like what MM has above, but with the stops on the way?

The interesting thing about something like that would be that it would drag the characters through important locales on the way to other places. Allow them to shorten the trip and/or avoid these locales with Navigation rolls. But in general, they'd need to follow certain paths to get from place to place. This is cool becuse it is so fairy-tale, and gives you an idea of the "terrain" between two points. Reminds me of the paths in the game Magic Realm. Sure you can go off the beaten path, but that's when people get lost...

Just seems like a better representation of things than free movement in 3D. After all, this is underground.

Mike

What I did was to print off a map from some subway site, then go through the book and mark on rough circles where the locations are. And really, that's all you need: a subway map on a reasonable scale, with locations roughly circled in felt-tip marker (or computer facsimile). If you wanted you could show depth with different colours or line styles (or just keep the confusing overlapping). Apply a bit of staining and crinkling and it's something you bought from a Tagger.

The layers with vertical connections version is good for explanation, but it's too modern, high-tech and precise. After all, locations routinely move around a bit to get comfortable, so exact guidelines have as much chance of getting you to the wrong spot as the right one.

For similar reasons a "timetable" of routes between stations would need to build in flexibility rather than being prescriptive about *the* route.

I support the idea behind Jared's travelling idea: think about the main activities characters will be doing and write the rules and support material accordingly. Eg travelling tunnels, visiting domains...

MadMoses (hey, that's me!) wrote:
A line on the charsheet for negative traits. The majority of players I know use this option.

Plus temporary wound levels (not quite sure whether that's another 3 spaces for each one).

A few things I'd like:

An INDEX. Please. Every game should have an index. Please.

A section on creating characters with out Guilds where they arent penalized.

I think that the choice and descriptions of Breeds is nice and they are quite open but the choices for Guilds are quite limiting. It seems to me that the UW would be loaded with folks who don't fit into such neat occupational catagories.

When I ran the game the only Guilds taken were Bravo and Tagger. The other characters were great concepts that were hampered by the system. Also the Guild requirements limits players from playing Newbies who just got downbelow.

jordvortexan wrote:
An INDEX. Please. Every game should have an index. Please.

A section on creating characters with out Guilds where they arent penalized.

There's also the fact that the Feral don't really fit into any Guilds, they're one of my favorite Breeds but the Guild requirement makes them too handicapped.

jordvortexan wrote: There's also the fact that the Feral don't really fit into any Guilds, they're one of my favorite Breeds but the Guild requirement makes them too handicapped.

In one corner of Wonderland there is a burrow. In the burrow lives the White Rabbit. Visiting unannounced is a poor idea, due to the various personal security and defence systems he has installed beneath the turf and in the tree trunks. It wasn't his idea to come here - some Homeless who liberated an animal research lab thought Wonderland ought to have a White Rabbit and brought him down - but he's got a nice spot and values his privacy. Under the gruff exterior there may be one or two soft spots, but don't put money on it. Caring little for the opinions or company of other Ferals, he has no qualms about using his manipulator arm rig.



BTW, the unkillable rat is brilliant.

Ferals. I LOVE the Ferals...but (and this is not some weird furry thing), it would be cool if the Radiance mucked with them a bit.

Radiance 0: Normal surface-world beasties
Radiance 1: standard UW beasties
Radiance 2: vaguely anthropamorphic beasties (ie: thumbs, bipedal)
Radiance 3+: weird "manimal" looking men and women (see http://www.daniellee.com for Daniel Lee's manimal photos)

This would rock the house.

THAT would be cool. Also, yes...the Undead (ie: ghosts) breed. I was also gonna say Fey as well but really, they're just Legendaries.

I thought about starting a new thread about this, but the subject of this thread covered it nicely, so I'll just add to it:

What would you folks like to see, in terms of progress reports/updates/sneak peaks of UW2? It's going to be 7 months or so before the game is released, and I know that people are going to want to see things to keep their interest level up.

A new "game design" column is not an option, because there are too many of the damn things nowadays, and updating to a second edition doesn't involve a lot of design anyway.

I would still like to do *something*, though. Any ideas?

GMS

How about a weekly/monthly/whatever "sneakpeak".

Maybe start off by making a list of all of the differences from trivial to signifigant (not including correcting typos of course) between the two, and then dedicating a thread to each.

The Graffiti art cover type of thread addresses the "Whats new with the cover" question.

The map thread was similiar, but could be updated when you decide how your going to go.

Maybe interior art would be another thread. Which 1e pics got scratched, what artists are doing the new art, give some links to sites they have so we can check em out.

d20 would be another one...give a sample UW character class template or two (like Pinnacle did with their D20 version), and discuss how you translate head counts to d20 rolls.

Some key items from the supplement that never came out that is now going to be included in the core book.

I wouldn't expect a full blown "column" on each, but I think this would be a good place to start.

Not just here - using the website is at least as important. The 'Godlike' folks did fairly well on that score. Make sure it always looks like something's happening, and that it caters for new interest as well as old timers like us. For instance, you may want to put up brief summaries of the Breeds and Guilds.

What do I personally want to see in UW 2ed. ?

1. More of Clayton Graham's artwork! This guy kicks. I dunno what it is, but his amerime style really does it for me.

2. More adventure seeds/hooks. The random generator in the back of 1ed. is fine, but I would have preferred a few more pages of pre-thought-through adventure ideas, and have the random generator as a web extra.

3. Smaller font sizes, and closer-packed text. Maybe I'm just used to the font sizes White Wolf and SJ Games (among others) use, but UW 1ed. seemed a little like the essays I used to write in high school: large fonts and few words on a line, to make it look like there's more text than there really is. :)

Besides, with the space you'd save using slighter smaller fonts, and laying off on the justified text alignment, you could pack in more nifty stuff and Clayton Graham artwork. :)

4. Better written and edited flavor text / game fiction. I loved the story about Goodfella Robin and the poker game, but the opening piece of fiction could really have been much better, especially since it served as an intro to the book.

5. More consistency in the layout and design, and general production values. Respect to the Jaffe brothers, love their work and all, but Joshua Jaffe still had a lot to learn about readability and consistency when he was working on UW 1ed. Yes, his work in Last Exodus is vastly improved, but it still suffers from some jarring awkwardnesses.

6. An updated inspirography. This was one of the sections I found very useful in 1ed., and I like to see an expanded (though smaller fonted and paragraph spaced :) ) version in 2ed. This is where I first discovered the works of China Mieville and others, and more readers should have the chance to do the same.

7. Better designed character sheets. Yes, the two sheets in 1ed. looked nice, but I would've preferred a single full-page sheet, with space for character extras like exploits and equipment notes, as well as more readable design.

I realise most of this is design commentary, but hopefully it's helpful. :)

soundwave wrote:
4. Better written and edited flavor text / game fiction. I loved the story about Goodfella Robin and the poker game, but the opening piece of fiction could really have been much better, especially since it served as an intro to the book.

On the fiction tip, what I would like to see is something like the scenes from the UW soundtrack. Maybe you could introduce each section with something like that? Since you're merging the UW mainbook and Down Below, I'm not sure how UW2 is going to be structured so perhaps that wouldn't fit. I do like the fiction, though, and think it should be kept. Some people have a hatred of fiction, but those people tend to think RPG books should look like stereo instructions (Insert Stat A into Slot C of the UW2ed Character Sheet [see diagram]). Bah. Art, baby! ART!

soundwave wrote: 7. Better designed character sheets. Yes, the two sheets in 1ed. looked nice, but I would've preferred a single full-page sheet, with space for character extras like exploits and equipment notes, as well as more readable design.

A couple of comments to the recent spate of posts:

1) Clayton Graham artwork. A lot of folks had exactly the opposite opinion...they HATED the anime-influenced stuff. To be honest, I haven't made up my mind yet regarding what to do with that stuff. Some of it (the Navigator, for example) I loved. But others (the Bravo) not so much. Not sure if I want more from him. All of which is wrapped up in the big question: is that style too much of a jarring switch from everything else. My instinct tells me yes...Clayton's stuff is amazing, but only workable if I did the whole book like that. I'd love to hear further comments.

2) Fiction. UW2 is going to have a bunch of new fiction pieces of varying length, and I might be dropping some of the work from the 1st edition, depending on how space works out.

3) Layout. It looks like I'm probably going to be doing that myself, unless I get a look at the sample pages that SOMEONE who recently posted said they were working up for me.... *ahem*

GMS

Heres my take on things;

1) The anime style artwork was great, and meshed well with the rest of the book, far better than a lot of the (frankly quite shit) other stuff in there

2) Fiction like the Goodfella Robin story and the interview with the subway worker is great, but the opener story left a lot to be desired. I think the emphasis should be on mystery and intrigue rather than action

3) Keep the hiphop/graffiti feel to the game. It is definately what sold it to me

Keep up the good work!

Nothing like getting complemented and insulted in the same sentence. LOL

As the party responsible for both the Goodfella Robin and the opening fiction piece, Down Below, I'll just tell you guys this:

Down Below was meant to be in pieces through-out the book, not one continuous story. But I agree with all and sundry, if I had it to over again, I'd re-written it a few more times...

Hey, wait a minute... I get to do it over again. Yipee!

New fiction though, new fiction. Hmm, maybe, after UW2 is out, I'll do a proper rewrite on the original story and put it up on the web.

Fiction - off the top of my head the only really expendable bit was the Alfred Ely Beach thing. The rest were quite good - or would have been, with editing etc.

Maybe some of it could be used to paint pictures of what it's like to walk into a domain, what everyday life is like, etc.

GMSkarka wrote: 1) Clayton Graham artwork. A lot of folks had exactly the opposite opinion...they HATED the anime-influenced stuff. To be honest, I haven't made up my mind yet regarding what to do with that stuff. Some of it (the Navigator, for example) I loved. But others (the Bravo) not so much. Not sure if I want more from him. All of which is wrapped up in the big question: is that style too much of a jarring switch from everything else. My instinct tells me yes...Clayton's stuff is amazing, but only workable if I did the whole book like that. I'd love to hear further comments.

I know the budget is tight, but if there are some bucks left for art, I would recommend to select your [insert number of chapters here] favourite artists from 1st Ed., and hire them for some additional artwork specifically for the chapter you want them in, so that you have consistent artwork in every chapter. This also helps when browsing the book for info during the game: when I spot a Clayton artwork, I know I am in the combat section, for example. Use one artist to illustrate all the Breeds and Guilds. Use another one for the magic section, you get my point.

soundwave wrote: This has to be the best RPG visual design idea I've ever heard.

soundwave wrote: As far as picking an artist to do the archetype portraits, my advice is make sure you get someone with a crisp, clean and recognisable style, so that readers do actually get some idea of what that Breed/Guild is all about. Also, it might be an idea to have the portraits depict either a) odd or unusual combinations of Breed and Guild, to show the variety possible and spark ideas (i.e. a Feral Artificer) OR b) common combinations, to illustrate traditional roles and mixes that work well together (i.e. a Junkman Bravo).

soundwave wrote: I'd like to see one or two more Guilds added, particularly ones with a more social/communicative role, like diplomats and/or messengers. I imagine there's a fair bit of call in the world below for individuals who can communicate easily with those in many other domains, as well as people who know quick, safe routes between them.

Re: Social Guild--

We are adding at least one new Guild: The Buskers (street musicians). They fill the niche of the historical bards: entertainment, news service, and messenger/diplomat. More on this is coming in the column over at RPGnet in a couple of weeks.

Re: Photos--
Thanks, Jurgen. Not only are we keeping the photos, we're adding a ton more. It's the medium that I work in (I did a few in the 1st edition book), and I've also lined up a couple of new artists who also work digital, as well.

Re: Art Direction--

I'm not really into the idea of "lumping" artists together. SCS tried that with The Last Exodus, and I'm not sure it was entirely successful there. I think that if you can get your artists on the same page, thematically, there is no problem with variety throughout the book.

GMS

GMSkarka wrote: The Buskers (street musicians). They fill the niche of the historical bards: entertainment, news service, and messenger/diplomat.

GMSkarka wrote: Not only are we keeping the photos, we're adding a ton more. It's the medium that I work in (I did a few in the 1st edition book), and I've also lined up a couple of new artists who also work digital, as well.

GMSkarka wrote: I'm not really into the idea of "lumping" artists together. SCS tried that with The Last Exodus, and I'm not sure it was entirely successful there. I think that if you can get your artists on the same page, thematically, there is no problem with variety throughout the book.

I would agree that the Breeds and Guilds need some really good artwork. One thing I like is when a number of different examples of each are presented on the page, kinda like the races in d20. Personally, I think that the style used for the Bravo, Navigator and Tagger (PARTICULARLY the Tagger) would be perfect, maybe smaller, with a few more examples.

GMSkarka wrote: Re: Social Guild--

We are adding at least one new Guild: The Buskers (street musicians). They fill the niche of the historical bards: entertainment, news service, and messenger/diplomat. More on this is coming in the column over at RPGnet in a couple of weeks.