I had a problem with handling raises and sees in Social Conflict last night. Fighting was easy enough.

Let's say you have a mob demanding that the criminal they have captured be strung up like the villain he is, and the Dogs insisting that he be subjected to a trial first. Basically, they wanted to see the evidence, and the crowd - one person in particular - wanted him strung up so that the evidence didn't come to light.

Can anyone suggest what sort of Raises (and how opponents might See those raises) would be appropriate in this case?

The way we played was unsatisfactory - basically, we couldn't think of appropriate raises and sees, so let the dice take over. It wasn't very compelling.

Mob (Raise): Outta the way, Brother, we're fixin' to hang this no-good killer.

Dog (See (Block)): Your stewardship does not extend over this man's life, no matter what he may have done.
(Raise:) Give him to us that he may be properly tried by those responsible for him.

Guy in Mob (See (Block)): No stewardship?! this filthy sinner killed my brother. Raise: (Raise, escalate to physcial) pulls out gun. If you won't let us hang 'im. He'll still die.

Dog:(See, (Reverse)): Then you intend to violate the commandment of the king of life, send your soul to hell, and leave your family with no one to care for them?
(Raise:) "For I have set you in service to those in need of you. Yay if you abandon that service you abondon me."

Mob:(See (Block)) "You would'nt do it, Kill a King fearing man in cold blood. Not over this trash" (Raise) cocks the hammer of his pistol

Dog:(See (Block, bring in coat)) "When I'm a witness to murder, my duty is clear. See this bloodstain on the yellow diamond of this coat? That man said he feared the King"
(Raise, escalate to physical, add in gun dice) Pulls out and cocks pistol "Now does your family's father go home tonight? Or will I need to ask the steward to make arrangments for them?"

Mob:(give) "Take him, Dog. But do him justice..."

Trevis Martin wrote: Mob (Raise): Outta the way, Brother, we're fixin' to hang this no-good killer.

Dog (See (Block)): Your stewardship does not extend over this man's life, no matter what he may have done.

(Raise:) Give him to us that he may be properly tried by those responsible for him.

demiurgeastaroth wrote:

Trevis Martin wrote: Mob (Raise): Outta the way, Brother, we're fixin' to hang this no-good killer.

Dog (See (Block)): Your stewardship does not extend over this man's life, no matter what he may have done.

What if the Dog Took the Blow - what would actually happen then?

(Raise:) Give him to us that he may be properly tried by those responsible for him.

If this was met by a Take the Blow, would this mean the mob gets the guy and the conflict is effectively over?

Ok

Mob (Raise): Outta the way, Brother, we're fixin' to hang this no-good killer.

(Raise:) Give him to us that he may be properly tried by those responsible for him

Wolfen wrote: If you take the blow, it might be more along the lines of "Well, if he did what you say, it's true he deserves to be hanged..." then Raise "but he's not going to be lynched in the streets by a mob." You have to concede or lose in some fashion when you take the blow, but it cannot end the stakes unless you give.

Wolfen wrote: Trevis, one thing I'd interpret differently than you did; Pulling a gun isn't escalation unless you fire it, or hit someone with it, or whatever. Vincent has pointed out that you can threaten a man with a gun, but unless you fire it, you're still doing talking fallout.. This says to me that it also doesn't count as escalation.

I also don't think that you get the gun's dice if used purely for intimidation.. I think in that case you'd treat it as an improvised item, because that's not the purpose it was designed for. This latter is probably purely stylistic, though.

Hm. I could be mistaken, Trevis, but my interpretation of physical, either fightin' or not fightin' was that contact had to be made. A hug, an arm barring the way..

And here I go shootin' myself in the foot as I remember the scenario where we tracked someone down... It was physical, but not fighting. Case conceded here, though I think I would still personally make the call that brandishing a weapon still counts as a raise in a talking conflict.

demiurgeastaroth wrote: Here's a ruling I made that I'd like your opinions on:
I expressly stated before play began that an item gives its dice to the sorts of things that item is for - if you use a big bible as a club, it's still a crap weapon so it only gives d4. An excellent gun used as a hammer is a crap hammer, and so d4.
Once in play I promptly forgot this rule and was giving full dice willy-nilly, so if it's wrong I haven't set a bad precendent.

demiurgeastaroth wrote:
During a conflict over whether the Gunslinger leaves town with his baby, Samuel told the players "Shoot him before he gets the baby!"
I ruled that if they didn't Take The Blow, they would have to draw and shoot (but not necessarily to kill). It wasn't a case of deciding the stakes, but it would force escalation they didn't want at the moment.
Was I unfair?

Here's a ruling I made that I'd like your opinions on:
I expressly stated before play began that an item gives its dice to the sorts of things that item is for - if you use a big bible as a club, it's still a crap weapon so it only gives d4. An excellent gun used as a hammer is a crap hammer, and so d4.
Once in play I promptly forgot this rule and was giving full dice willy-nilly, so if it's wrong I haven't set a bad precendent. :)

Dogs in the Vineyard wrote: Improvised Things: Sometimes you’ll have your character use a tool or weapon not listed on your sheet. If your character’s using it to its intended purpose— shooting a gun, looking through a spyglass, hitting things with a hammer— you get its normal dice. If your character’s using it for something unintended— hitting someone with a pistol’s butt, wedging a hammer into a doorjamb to hold it shut— you get 1d6, or 1d4 if it’s a dumb, desperate or dangerous thing to do.

Trevis Martin wrote:

demiurgeastaroth wrote:
During a conflict over whether the Gunslinger leaves town with his baby, Samuel told the players "Shoot him before he gets the baby!"
I ruled that if they didn't Take The Blow, they would have to draw and shoot (but not necessarily to kill). It wasn't a case of deciding the stakes, but it would force escalation they didn't want at the moment.
Was I unfair?

What were the stakes and the particpants there exactly? If the stakes are "Does the Gunslinger leave town with his baby" and another NPC particpant raises against the dogs with the "shoot him" line then I'd say that if they take the blow, they would shoot. I think that would be fair.

bla bla improved object bla bla

Dogs in the Vineyard wrote: If your character’s using it for something unintended— hitting someone with a pistol’s butt, wedging a hammer into a doorjamb to hold it shut— you get 1d6, or 1d4 if it’s a dumb, desperate or dangerous thing to do.

I don't know Lance. Pulling a gun is one big step on the road to using it. If it was an act that has less impact maybe I'd let it only be a raise. I guess the question is does does physical mean merely non-verbal, or does it mean contact. Tricky.

Or..."do I get escalation dice when I flip them off? " :)

Trevis

Wolfen wrote: Though I probably wouldn't have ruled to give full dice, it's not without justification that a 2d8 pistol (my but that's a big, high quality revolver you're waving in my face) could get it's full dice for intimidation. Personally though, my inner gamist would tell me not to roll dice for the weapon at all.. I may need them if the bullets start flying.

A good way, I think, to think of 'Taking the Blow' is that its a concession of some kind to what the other side wants. Lance and I interpreted it differently in our examples. In my case I narrated the crowd shoving the dog to the side (gave them what they wanted in the raise, me to get out of the way.) In Lance's case he had the dog agree with them about the nature of the crime (acknowledging that their point was valid.) they are both concessions to the other side, just ones that don't compromise the stakes of the whole conflict.


best

Trevis

Trevis Martin wrote: A good way, I think, to think of 'Taking the Blow' is that its a concession of some kind to what the other side wants.

Trevis Martin wrote: Wolfen, I disagree, brandishing a gun is a physical act that absolutely works for escalation to physical but not fighting.

Short answers!

a) The difference between a thing on your character sheet and an improvised thing: if it's on your character sheet, you get its whole full dice no matter what you do with it, even if it's desperate or dumb.

b) It's the escalater's decision whether to escalate. "I wave my gun around for emphasis" might be just talking still, or it might be escalating to physical, and the person doing the waving gets to decide.

Either way she gets the gun's dice, right then.

(There's no tactical advantage to holding back on rolling dice. There's sometimes tactical advantage to holding back on putting them forward after you've rolled them.)

c)

The one thing we didn't talk about is what the stakes actually were.

Thanks for the clarifications, there - especially the object dice points.

Not to undercut Vincent's point about determining stakes before dice. It is indeed critical, but the sentence he took out was from my post in which I was trying to say that I hadn't explicitly stated the stakes in my hypothetical example, though I knew what they were when I was writing the post.

Anyway, good to know about object dice and escalation both.

best

Trevis

Zorm. My bad.

-Vincent