My goal for this session was to introduce a bunch of NPCs, have the PCs interact a bit with each other, and provide a hook at the end to get them more directly involved in the Manjipor court. To introduce the characters... Stephan is a Seynyorean aristocrat who's come south to fight the Shadow and hopefully either find a wife or some land (or both). Lokesh is the second son of a local landowning rancher who's come to the city to live a little and make a name for himself. Barbon is a Seer, also from Seynyor, who has come to the Border lands to fight the Shadow and to remove the burden of supporting him from his family, who has fallen on hard times recently.

We started by finishing up some character creation stuff. I'm giving the characters five points to raise their keywords or their set of ten chosen abilities, and 30 points rather than 20 to raise abilities besides. Interestingly, Lokesh's player chose to lower many of his keyword abilities, feeling that his character wouldn't be equally good at all of them. After a little more dithering around dividing up extra points, we got started.

I briefly described Manjipor and then declared that today was a big day of celebration, because the planting has been finished. It's a very hopeful time; the hard work is over for now, and the inevitable pain of seeing many of the crops blight and fail hasn't set in yet. The decorations and food spread were pretty poor to the eyes of the two Seynyoreans in the party, but there was plenty of heartfelt singing and dancing.

Stephan introduced himself to Fiora, the wife of the vicar who rules the city, and then met Vitale, a diplomatic envoy from the costal country of Portona. Meanwhile, Lokesh made the acquaintance of Delfino, Vitale's glum personal assistant. Then Stephan and Barbon met up and sparred a few friendly rounds. A little while after that, Stephan met Tulasi and Davlesh, a couple of local aristos looking to make friends their own age. Finally Stephan and Lokesh met, as Lokesh tried (and failed) to steal away one of a group of ladies that Stephan was flirting with. The two gentlemen chatted and Lokesh decided to show off his whipsword, a local exotic weapon. Stephan couldn't resist the challenge of giving it a try, and managed to cut himself on the leg.

As he was limping off to have his wound bandaged (although he stayed and chatted for a few minutes, just to show that it didn't bother him), there was a big stir at one of the food tables. A whole roasted pig that had just been brought out spilled a mass of rotted flesh and maggots when it was cut. The mood of the gathering quickly soured, as everyone was reminded that they're all living on time stolen from the Border. A local noble, Nayan, announced that the animal had come from his lands, from stock that he thought was safe. He said that he would go investigate immediately. Stephan volunteered to help (being currently unattached to any fighting effort), and Lokesh was enlisted as well (his father's lands border on Nayan's, so they recognized each other). Barbon was volunteered to help by Stephan, and we ended on that note.

I was a little too contest-happy tonight, probably in part to introduce the system to people. Also, although I used the standard resistance of 14 for almost anything, a string of low rolls on my part turned out several marginal defeats for the characters as they tried to gather information or socially impress people. No one seemed to be getting terribly frustrated, but I was a little worried and I'll probably be a little more free with automatic successes next time.

Barbon's player is definitely cautious right now. Most of his play during the evening consisted of saying that his character was hanging back and watching what was happening. I'm not sure exactly where things will go with him in the long run. He's playing a Seer because they have psychic powers, but use of their powers is restricted by social rules. I don't mind if he breaks those rules, but I'm not sure that he's intersted in dealing with the consequences. So, I'm a little torn about how far to bend my game desires to make him happy, especially when the other two players seem to be on the same page as me.

I was a little concerned about Lokesh's player, because he's just as new to the system, but he seems to be adapting nicely. When he decided to introduce himself to Stephan by attempting to steal a girl, he swiftly committed one of his unused ability slots to be "Good wit da Ladies."

Most of the contests were social in nature. While I think I know how to apply the consequences of victory or defeat in these cases, I'm a little fuzzy on how long "wounds" should take to heal, or what that healing will entail. I think I might need to start jotting down contests, because now I think I might have forgotten one or two that should still be "healing" for a while. Still, I had fun, and the players claimed that they did too.

Sounds like a fun game, hope to see more soon!

On the narrator side, what you said about contests struck a note with me because I'm beginning to narrate HQ and have the opposite problem: I'm liking the freedom the system provides so much that overlook opportunities for contests.

If you like, do you have examples from your game? What was the best situation for a contest you had, did you use a contest, and what happened? Was there a clear "Damn that should have been automatic just now" situation for you, if so what happened? Did you have any contest in which the outcome suprised you?

StalkingBlue wrote: If you like, do you have examples from your game? What was the best situation for a contest you had, did you use a contest, and what happened? Was there a clear "Damn that should have been automatic just now" situation for you, if so what happened? Did you have any contest in which the outcome suprised you?

Thanks for the examples, that's great. I liked to see how the contest mechanics contributed to shaping what happened in game. Also interesting to see how many PC-PC contests you had - the majority of the contests you list didn't involve NPCs. Are you aiming to focus the game on relationships between PCs a great deal, or was this just an accumulation of coincidences in the session?

Cool flirting contest btw. What goal did you use for Lokesh in the contest, success in the flirt or attracting Stephan's attention?

Who asked for a contest for Stephan to know about Barbon's family, you or the players? If Stephen's or Barbon's player wanted the dice to decide, then maybe wasn't a superfluous contest. If on the other hand you all wanted Stephan to have the information, then yeah, automatic success or freeform negotation would have worked better. (Just sayin'. I've run a whopping three sessions of HeroQuest yet (although more in other systems), so who am I to talk...)

I wouldn't worry about a disparity in contests much yet, I think the amount of contests will likely vary from session to session. What was the reason most of the contests involved Stephan, do you think? If he is more proactive than the other players, then you might want to provide more or clearer opportunities for the others to get into the spotlight.
If on the other hand he was the "contest-happy" one and the others managed to get their fair share (or more) of screen time by doing non-contest stuff, it's not a problem. Also with Stephan being the diplomatic specialist, the environment for the first session may have favoured this player - again not necessarily a problem to have a "Stephan session" or even a "Stephan episode", as long as Barbon episodes and Lokesh episodes follow. When I'm a player I much prefer to see amounts of spotlight vary between characters, so sometimes I get to be entertained by another's performance and sometimes I'm more in the centre; and in my experience most players can live with that well once they realise they all get their turn.

Oh, and I forgot to say earlier: Barbon's player may be hanging back because he needs time to start trusting you. Lots of players have played under GMs with an "Anything you say or do will be used against you" attitude and won't engage until they have a clear "adventure hook" and know what they are "supposed to do". With these people, giving them time and inviting them in again and again and making sure their PCs get opportunities to look cool can help.
What abilities did Barbon increase, his psychic powers? If those are his only strong points (which in itself would suggest that he's used to games about winning), then starting out in a diplomatic situation might have been difficult for him to handle if he has trust issues: the player knows he could make his character look cool through successfully using his powers, but he "knows" there's a GM out there only waiting to pounce on the PC and make him look stupid (arrest him, get him thrown out of the gathering or use him as adventure hook in some other unpleasant fashion), so he's probably sitting there watching for the "more powerful NPC psychic" who will expose the PC when he starts psychicing around.
Assuming for a moment that I'm not completely off track (which I may well be, piloting on near zero data here) and Barbon's player has trust issues, then perhaps consider offering him a chance to shine with his powers in a situation in which he knows their use will be accepted, or remain undetected for sure. Just an idea.

StalkingBlue wrote: Thanks for the examples, that's great. I liked to see how the contest mechanics contributed to shaping what happened in game. Also interesting to see how many PC-PC contests you had - the majority of the contests you list didn't involve NPCs. Are you aiming to focus the game on relationships between PCs a great deal, or was this just an accumulation of coincidences in the session?

Cool flirting contest btw. What goal did you use for Lokesh in the contest, success in the flirt or attracting Stephan's attention?

I wouldn't worry about a disparity in contests much yet, I think the amount of contests will likely vary from session to session. What was the reason most of the contests involved Stephan, do you think? If he is more proactive than the other players, then you might want to provide more or clearer opportunities for the others to get into the spotlight.

What abilities did Barbon increase, his psychic powers? If those are his only strong points (which in itself would suggest that he's used to games about winning), then starting out in a diplomatic situation might have been difficult for him to handle if he has trust issues: the player knows he could make his character look cool through successfully using his powers, but he "knows" there's a GM out there only waiting to pounce on the PC and make him look stupid (arrest him, get him thrown out of the gathering or use him as adventure hook in some other unpleasant fashion), so he's probably sitting there watching for the "more powerful NPC psychic" who will expose the PC when he starts psychicing around.

Adrienne wrote: Even for the contests that did involve NPCs, I usually found myself using the default resistance of 14. That's something I might try to practice next time--getting into the habit of thinking, "would this person have an ability to resist?" to vary contest difficulty a bit.

The resulting focus on PC-PC contests was pretty much an accident. For flirting, Lokesh's player specified that his goal was to steal one of Stephan's audience. He figured (correctly) that success or failure would get him the desired attention from Stephan, and maybe a date on the side.

As for the Stephan-Barbon family contest, I don't remember whose idea it was to roll. I certainly had the opportunity to say "let's skip that," though, and I'm a little embarrassed that it didn't even occur to me.

I did want them to feel the connection, so you're quite right that an automatic success or discussion would have been better.

If I keep posting play reports, expect more "oops" moments like this, as thinking on my feet isn't my strongest suit. :)

Stephan's player is both more proactive and more eager to get in contests. The contest list I gave underrepresents Lokesh's screen time, but is pretty accurate for Barbon.

I think you might be right about the trust issues, although for a different reason: he's the youngest and least experienced gamer in the group, and I think he's worried about looking silly if he asserts himself. I don't know how to cure that, but I can at least throw him a couple of softball contests to try to draw him in a little more.

You also have an interesting point about fearing the "powerful NPC psychic" will come and punish him if he breaks the rules. There are definitely such characters in the setting, and I've mentioned them, although I wouldn't use them to smack down his character (because that would be much less interesting than the social or moral consequences of continued abuse of his powers).

Heck, maybe I have trust issues with him--I'm doubtful of his ability and/or willingness to play out those consequences, so I'm steering him away from that path more strongly than I otherwise would.

Thanks for the thoughtful questions!

(snip good advice)

StalkingBlue wrote: Are you concerned about him powergaming? Or why do smackdown and "continued abuse of his powers" come into this? What's your previous play experience with him?

So just how strong are those consequences in your game? Are they strong enough to frustrate his character concept if he wants to focus on exploring the psychic stuff? What will happen if he's found out wandering through the court reading minds in passing, say? Are there cool compensations for him if he's found out and marked an outsider because of it?

My previous experience with him is a little bit of D&D and a little Universalis. (He did fine with Universalis, which is the main reason I invited him to a regular game--unfortunately, he doesn't seem to be coming up with ideas in HQ the way he did in Uni.) I'm not worried about him powergaming at all. It's just that the psychic aspect seemed to be what interested him most during character creation, and it also happens to be the one that's most socially restricted in play. I'll definitely make an effort to insert "legal" uses of his Seer powers, but I don't know the player well enough to guess if that will be enough for him in the long term.

Adrienne wrote: It's just that the psychic aspect seemed to be what interested him most during character creation, and it also happens to be the one that's most socially restricted in play. I'll definitely make an effort to insert "legal" uses of his Seer powers, but I don't know the player well enough to guess if that will be enough for him in the long term.

It's a little hard to say, because the only character to abuse such powers in the books is otherwise so far over the line that reading people's minds is pretty much the least of his sins.

If Barbon went around reading thoughts and was discovered, I'd probably have a talk with the group about it--I'd explain that he was headed down the road to being reported, and brainstorm for interesting ways to avoid that consequence (blackmailing the local lord to keep quiet, for instance, or finding some way to explain to the lord that it was all "for the best").

If he plays it safe and doesn't take the bait, no harm will come to him.

If he goes for it, though, I might arrange for a tempting chance to use his powers illegally, and see what he does. I just don't want to come off like I'm pushing him into playing a certain way and then punishing him for it.

Anyway, that's probably more of a response than you were looking for, but I admit that I'm thinking out loud here.

Bryan_T wrote: - In the other games where you played with him, did he also go for "magic" characters? If so, what sort of magic?
- By chance have you read Robin Law's booklet "Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering"? In it he talks about player types, one of which he calls "the specialist", like the person who always plays a ninja type person. He suggests that part of what you need to do to keep this type happy is let them do whatever it is that makes their character special.

- How wedded are you to being faithful to the source material?

- Do you have a feel from him for how he wants his magic to work out?

OK, after all the questions, I did have one maybe suggestion: If you let the seer's player see another character get stomped, and how cool it actually can be, that might make him relax a bit more and trust you.

StalkingBlue wrote:

If he goes for it, though, I might arrange for a tempting chance to use his powers illegally, and see what he does. I just don't want to come off like I'm pushing him into playing a certain way and then punishing him for it.

Then don't punish him. Make the consequences of discovery as interesting as the results of remaining undiscovered.

So what's the bang you're planning? I'm curious now. :)

So my (maybe unanswerable) question is, how do I tell in advance if complicating Barbon's life would be badwrong fun? I don't know if I'm correctly reading his preferences and avoiding play he doesn't want, or just being an elitist GM who's stifling his potential.

Session Two: Picking at the Threads

(Events in this post, discussion in the next one.)

On his way home from the celebration, Stephan stops to break up a group of arguing Seynyorean and Borderer soldiers. He dresses down the Seynyoreans and the Borders go off mollified. Upon arriving home, he finds an anonymous gift, a jeweled pin. Meanwhile, a message waits for Barbon at the cheap inn where he's staying: a note saying simply, "Don't trust Nayan." Hmm.

Next morning, our three heroes ride out with Nayan to his holdings. As they go east of Manjipor, towards the Border, the area starts to show more signs of sickness, burned out houses and streaks of dead land. Nayan mentions with some pride that his land has been arable for twenty years--Lokesh's family, his neighbors to the south, aren't doing quite as well.

They arrive at the village that supplied the pig, and find it absolutely silent. Lokesh goes off to investigate the livestock barns and finds the bodies of pigs, split open and spilling maggots like the one at the feast. His major success on the investigation also tells him that the pigs were alive when they erupted, and that a substantial number of them are just plain missing.

Outside, Stephan calls out to see if anyone at all is around. After a silence, a door down the street cracks open and a child peers out. Questioning him, they find that almost everyone in town got sick a day or two ago, and most of them are packed up in the lord's manor house--he stayed to take care of his mother. Nayan rides off to get a Healer, leaving the three others to handle things in town.

They do what they can for the woman--Lokesh, thanks to a marginal failure to diagnose her, thinks that she's suffering from the same ailment as the pigs--and then head up to the big house. They find what seems like the entire population of town in crude pallets on the floor, living mixed in with the dead, and one exhausted woman tending them. Telling her to get some rest, they take over. Lokesh handles the funeral rites and they burn the corpses on a pyre (necessary, because this close to the Border the dead don't stay in the ground).

As they finish that hard work, night is falling, and Stephan notices need-fire flickering on the Border--a sign that an attack is in progress from the other side. They move the two stragglers up to the manor house and hunker down for the night, keeping a watch. Goblins attack, but Stephan and Lokesh drive them back with dazzling swordplay and much gore. As dawn comes, the area is safe. The first sick woman they found, who Barbon has been nursing all night, comes out of her delirium.

After Lokesh investigated the pigs, everything that happened was part of an extended contest. I thought it would be cool to use those mechanics to handle the day-long struggle against the forces of plague and Shadow in the village. Confusion began almost immediately, as I realized a starting resistance of 18 or so (comparable to Lokesh's first action in the contest) would give the "enemy" only 18 AP, a total that wouldn't last long against the efforts of all three PCs combined. However, setting the resistance at 20W2 to give a good AP total would cause the characters to lose every step of the contest along the way... also not good.

Well, okay, so I suggested splitting the "enemy" of the contest into sub-tasks like diagnosing the disease, properly disposing of the dead, etc. That didn't make much sense to Stephan's player--was there one opposing force, or more?--so we decided to run it as three separate extended contests, one per character.

Since Lokesh's efforts focused on investigating the disease and seeing to the proper rituals, I decided that his enemy (broadly speaking) was ignorance and confusion. As the day wore on into night, he started to get frustrated with the mystery of the disease, and also the question of where the missing livestock had gone. Were they headed toward his family's land to the south, carrying the splague while he stayed to tend a bunch of strangers? He almost broke down and abandoned the village to go warn his family, but stayed on. In the end, he came out of his contest with -6 AP (I'm thinking of some lingering nightmares or doubt that will last for a few days).

Barbon focused his efforts on nursing the first woman they found (more on this later, heh). His rounds were the most straightforward; his enemy was the disease in her. After a long string of verrrrry cautious bidding (2 or 3 AP, every time) Chris finally pointed out that with an aggressive bid and willingness to spend a hero point, he could finish in one round. He tried it, and the gamble worked, as he drove the disease down to -6 AP.

For Stephan, I had the hardest time pinning down the opposition, in part because the ideas I had were tied into secrets his character doesn't know yet. So, I decided that secrecy and the Shadow were his enemy. He began with a string of failures--trying to talk to the conscious villagers for information proved fruitless, as they were too confused and tired to remember anything. He helped Lokesh with the funeral rites, stayed alert, and then risked much on a high bid when the goblins attacked. He rolled a success and bumped to a critical, and I rolled a fumble. Final AP total: 95 to -35. The village will be safe from attack for some time, and in the next session he'll be finding out some of the secrets behind the plague.

The extended contest rules bogged things down a bit. I was confused at the beginning about how to define the opposition, and I had to stop several times to explain some rules bits. Overall, the result was ambivalent. For Stephan and Babon, a few simple contests would probably have worked as well and been much easier. For Lokesh, though, I think the extended framework was great for showing the development of his mental state over the night.

Barbon's player is nigh-inscrutable to me. He's keeping his Seer powers a secret from everyone, so Nayan couldn't ask him to call for a Healer from Manjipor. I even mentioned the possibility of calling for help like that, in case it hadn't occured to the player, but he was uninterested. He didn't read anyone's mind to find out what had happened, he just... nursed the sick woman. I had planned for him to communicate with the Seer in Manjipor, which would have been a very helpful and legal use of his powers. I completely didn't expect that he would ignore that, after psychic powers were the only thing he'd explicitly identified as drawing him to the character.

So what was the bang for Barbon? :)

Adrienne wrote: I'm unconvinced that the player is interested in exploring that story. My fear is that he wants Barbon to use his powers because "psychics are cool," and that if I start introducing complications like unsavory Clients seeking him out, he'll view it as a sign that he's making the wrong decisions.

StalkingBlue wrote: (a) You consider use of seer powers as unsavoury - dunno whether that's your value judgement or a value judgement in the setting or both (and in any case my apologies if I misunderstood); and
(b) the player expected seer powers to be "cool".

(a) is fine, taken on its own. (b) is fine, taken on its own. (a) and (b) in the same game won't mesh. You'll get a lot of grief out of that seer stuff if you have both (a) and (b). Do you think that might be the case?

StalkingBlue wrote: So what was the bang for Barbon? :)

(a) You consider use of seer powers as unsavoury - dunno whether that's your value judgement or a value judgement in the setting or both (and in any case my apologies if I misunderstood); and
(b) the player expected seer powers to be "cool".

(a) is fine, taken on its own. (b) is fine, taken on its own. (a) and (b) in the same game won't mesh. You'll get a lot of grief out of that seer stuff if you have both (a) and (b). Do you think that might be the case?

Adrienne wrote: ...I was more interested in getting input on the extended contest stuff.

After Lokesh investigated the pigs, everything that happened was part of an extended contest. I thought it would be cool to use those mechanics to handle the day-long struggle against the forces of plague and Shadow in the village.

Well, okay, so I suggested splitting the "enemy" of the contest into sub-tasks like diagnosing the disease, properly disposing of the dead, etc.

Since Lokesh's efforts focused on investigating the disease and seeing to the proper rituals, I decided that his enemy (broadly speaking) was ignorance and confusion.

After a long string of verrrrry cautious bidding (2 or 3 AP, every time) Chris finally pointed out that with an aggressive bid and willingness to spend a hero point, he could finish in one round. He tried it, and the gamble worked, as he drove the disease down to -6 AP.

For Stephan, I had the hardest time pinning down the opposition, in part because the ideas I had were tied into secrets his character doesn't know yet.

He helped Lokesh with the funeral rites, stayed alert, and then risked much on a high bid when the goblins attacked.

Final AP total: 95 to -35. The village will be safe from attack for some time, and in the next session he'll be finding out some of the secrets behind the plague.

For Stephan and Babon, a few simple contests would probably have worked as well and been much easier. For Lokesh, though, I think the extended framework was great for showing the development of his mental state over the night.

StalkingBlue wrote: First things first then. I had wanted to ask questions about the extended contest, but wasn't sure how much you wanted to discuss this.

Further down in your post you say the result was ambivalent and that simple contests might have worked better for both Barbon and Stephen.
What exactly did you expect extended contests would deliver in their cases that a simple contest wouldn't have? Why didn't it work, do you know?

What input did you get from your players for defining each PC's "enemy"?

After the enemy was defined, did the players each stick to their assigned enemy? I was wondering whether using an extended contest in this situation might have locked the players into doing one specific thing, by giving each of them a specific "enemy" to deal with.

Since Lokesh's efforts focused on investigating the disease and seeing to the proper rituals, I decided that his enemy (broadly speaking) was ignorance and confusion.

His own ignorance and confusion? Or some outside influence that was concealing the truth from the PCs?

Did the player get a chance to use different abilities thoughout the contest? (I'm assuming yes because he had a wide scope of things to do, what with investigating the place, talking to anyone not in a coma, examining animals, seeing to rituals etc.) What about the other players? Barbon's nursing sounds like he had only one single thing to do, which takes away much of the fun of an extended contest.

So he spent one HP to win his contest? Did the other players spend HPs to bump?

Oh, and who decided that Barbon nursed the woman all night? Was that simply for practical reasons because his extended contest went on for so many rounds, or was it for another reason?

For Stephan, I had the hardest time pinning down the opposition, in part because the ideas I had were tied into secrets his character doesn't know yet.

So you gave him an enemy but didn't reveal who or what the enemy was? Hm, it's no more than a hunch but that seems to speak against using an extended contest for me. (If not against using any sort of contest.)

Cool stuff. I have some thoughts.

I'm a little fuzzy on how long "wounds" should take to heal, or what that healing will entail.

Even for the contests that did involve NPCs, I usually found myself using the default resistance of 14. That's something I might try to practice next time--getting into the habit of thinking, "would this person have an ability to resist?" to vary contest difficulty a bit.

I'm currently working on the hypothesis that as long as I have a "benchmark" in mind for an NPC (roughly, the number of masteries in their best ability) I'll be able to be halfway consistent without worrying about details too much

As for the Stephan-Barbon family contest, I don't remember whose idea it was to roll.

I don't know how to cure that, but I can at least throw him a couple of softball contests to try to draw him in a little more.

In Barbon's case the conflict wasn't dramatic enough to warrant an extended contest rather than a simple one.

I'm trying a variant rule where HP become experience points after you use them, which obviously encouraged those decisions.

Adrienne wrote: As your questions indicate, I screwed lots of things up.

I'd love to have some advice on extended contests, because right now I'm inclined to avoid them until I know how to use them.

After the enemy was defined, did the players each stick to their assigned enemy? I was wondering whether using an extended contest in this situation might have locked the players into doing one specific thing, by giving each of them a specific "enemy" to deal with.

Not really much, that I can remember (CPXB should jump in if he remembers anything). I don't think it occurred to me to get their input; I was pretty confused at the time trying to sort it all out myself.

I decided each character's rough "enemy" by the first action they took in the contest: Lokesh tried to diagnose the disease, Stephan questioned the boy, and Barbon tried to make the sick woman more comfortable.

Lokesh's player commented after the game that he'd gotten to use a lot of the abilities on his character sheet, which matches my impression.

Mike Holmes wrote: You get rant #7: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9812

If you want narrativism from him force him to either play that way, or ask out of the game. Either way things will be better off than they are now.

For example, Barbon is declared an outlaw, and the psycops are coming for him. He's done nothing wrong, but he hears that the Count (I dunno, somebody suitable) has accused him, and they're not going to listen to reason.

Now that said, I think that you're like Kerstin somewhat in that you beat yourself up too much for percieved flaws in your narratoring.

I'll try to finish answering these questions, then move on to Mike's post and last night's session. One of the themes of the game is supposed to be intrigue, so revealing all to Stephan would indeed upset my plans. (That means that "secrecy" shouldn't have been his enemy, of course, but I already know that.) I talked to CPXB, and he was quite willing to come up with other ways for Stephan to have a strong lasting effect--like the village being safe from goblins forever, or getting a reputation (on both sides of the Border) as a great goblin killer.

StalkingBlue wrote: Why did it work so well for Lokesh when it didn't work for the other two? It sounds a bit like you defined Lokesh's conflict (and only Lokesh's) in a way that enabled the player to bring the character's personal issues into the contest.

Did he have any reason to care particularly about this particular patient? Unless he knew her well, had fallen in love with her at first sight or had some reason on his character sheet to get involved intensely emotionally in healing random strangers, where's the drama?

(Snip advice I will steal)

Mike Holmes wrote: That won't do it, nosir. You get rant #7: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9812

If you want narrativism from him force him to either play that way, or ask out of the game. Either way things will be better off than they are now.

(snip)

Just an example. What you really want to do, is look at the character sheet, find out two things that are really important to the character (and more importantly put there with enthusiasm by the player indicating his interest), and find some way to put them in conflict with a bang. Show the player why his character is cool in dramatic terms. Again, if he can't see it, then tell him you tried, and it's not going to work.

I'm going to have to do that in one of my games (hmm, that's about the last thing Isadora would need right now, a disease romping it's way through the camp...swamp, camp hygiene, close living quarters...thanks for the idea Adrienne!)

That said, I think that you bit off more than you could chew, Adrienne, by making three concurrent extended contests, and by not having a clear vision of what they'd be like. That is, as soon as you started floundering, you should have changed your mind. If it doesn't jump out at you and tell you how to make it an extended contest, then it shouldn't be an extended contest. When it's time, you'll think, "Oh, now this is when an extended contest is right!"

Alarms going off. How does this work precisely? If it's the version where you can't spend HP until you've spent them in play as HP to bump, I'm very agin it. HP represent a choice that has to balance out. Do I want to bump and make my character look cool here, or do I want to raise ability levels with them? If you go with your method, then everybody will always bump, and there's no thinking about when you want your character to be cool, and when it's cooler to fail.

Session Three

We opened in the wee hours of the morning, as Nayan rode in from Manjipor with a small group of Healers and soldiers in tow. He immediately changed horses and departed again, to scrounge a few more men from his estate. With all the necessary duties taken over, Lokesh headed outside to take another look at the surrounding farmland. When he was out of sight of everyone else, he was hailed by a dirty and slightly wounded figure--Sujit, the son of his mentor in the whipsword. In the name of his father, Sujit asked for sanctuary from Lokesh.

Before he could explain himself, two soldiers arrived--men Lokesh recognized as serving his father. They respectfully announced that they had to return Sujit to Lokesh's father's land to stand trial for defacing a family monument. (There are no graves in Manjipe, so this is as close as it gets to grave desecration.) Sujit repeated his plea for help, but said he couldn't explain more. Lokesh, curious, excused himself to ride back to his father's lands to investigate.

There, he learned that a monument dedicated to his ancestors had indeed been defaced by Sujit, who did not deny the crime but wouldn't explain himself. Lokesh tried to persuade him, and managed to learn that his ancestors had done some wrong to Sujit's family; the young man got drunk one night and damaged the monument because of it. Lokesh wanted to help, but was loyal to his father. So, he went and persuaded his father to let Sujit travel with him instead of going out to do dangerous Border service (not a guaranteed death sentence, but poor odds for survival). His father agreed, discharged the young man into Lokesh's care, and they returned to the plague-stricken village.

There, meanwhile, the soldiers brought Stephan's attention to a small pile of bones in the fireplace, blackened by smoke and carved with indecipherable writing. Stephan questioned the woman who had been tending the room when he arrived, and she claimed ignorance. Seeing no other option, he arrested her on suspicion of witchcraft.

Later in the day, Nayan returned, and Stephan filled him in on what they knew. Nayan thanked him for his help and said that his obligation was discharged, but asked one last favor--would he transport the bones back to Manjipor for examination? Barbon said he could translate the words, given a library. Stephan agreed to carry the bones, after one last look around...

So, he and the now-returned Lokesh rode out to make a final, thorough examination of the surrounding land. Thanks to Stephan's methodical search pattern and Lokesh's knowledge of the local plants, they realized that the vegetation surrounding the village was ailing, with the village apparently acting as both the temporal and spatial origin of the blight. They decided to see what was at the center of town, and it turned out to be the village well, which smelled a little on the funky side. They pulled up the bucket, and found that it contained a skull, with more characters carved on the forehead.

Checking around, they discovered that both people who were unaffected by the plague (the woman accused of sorcery and the little boy) had been recently drinking something other than well water. Furthermore, a strict accounting of bodies burned and living plage victims revealed five people who were completely missing. They reported these findings to Nayan as well, who was glumly pleased to have the extra information. We ended with the group ready to head back to Manjipor.

I had a bang for each character ready to try, but we only got to one of them because everyone stayed in the village much longer than I expected. The one that happened was for Lokesh, of course--would he help the son of his mentor, or side with his father? I was childishly gleeful when the player said, "Huh. I don't know what to do." He ended up taking a middle route, trying to please both his father and stick up for Sujit. He might be adding him as an official sidekick or retainer, which would be the group's first.

This whole thing might reveal much more about Lokesh in the long term than I expected, because he apparently feels an obligation to make Sujit's service as bad as Border duty in one way or another. Lokesh is starting to show hints of a cheerfully sadistic side, as he jokes about finding shit jobs for Sujit to do. "Sujit, go down in the well to see if anything horrible is there. Sujit, carry these cursed bones back to Manjipor." Poor guy.

I also introduced variable augments for the first time, with Lokesh getting a +4 to help Stephan search for a pattern around the village (it ended up making the difference in success level, which was cool). Other than that, contests were pretty straightforward; I'm getting pretty comfortable with using 14 for a default, 18 if it's "pretty hard" for some reason, and of course an opposing rating if one exists.

The unexpectedly long stay in the village resulted in Lokesh's abilities getting lots of screen time, and Stephan's persuasion and sword skills getting little. I'll do my best to remedy that next session. CPXB quite gamely kept looking for clues, even though Stephan's closest thing to a perception ability was Quick-witted 18.

And now, the inevitable Barbon section... The most interesting bit with him, from my point of view, was the conversation where Stephan told Nayan about the bones found in the fireplace and the woman he'd arrested for witchcraft. Nayan said that he didn't know anything about the occult to check for himself, and that he'd have to send for a Seer to question her, to see if her story was true.

Barbon, who was watching the whole conversation, didn't mention that he was a Seer and he could check for himself. (Part of me wants to have her lynched for witchcraft after the group leaves, before a Seer can arrive.) Instead, he used his Sense Lie ability on Nayan, but got a marginal failure.

As a follow-up, I asked the player via email why he was choosing for Barbon to hide his abilities. He's now saying that he didn't know what Barbon could do, and wants to go over "the whole Seer thing" with me to learn. I find myself regarding it as an ambivalent sign. One one hand, at least he's showing some interest now; on the other hand, it only follows direct questions on my part.

I'll probably start another thread this afternoon, where I can present my bang ideas and solicit advice away from CPXB's eyes.

I'll follow up here with some thoughts on what has transpired so far.

One of the themes of the game is supposed to be intrigue, so revealing all to Stephan would indeed upset my plans.

That means that "secrecy" shouldn't have been his enemy, of course, but I already know that.

I'm not sure why he latched on to that NPC so strongly. My uncharitable side says that he wasn't paying attention much at the session, so he probably stayed with her because anything else would have been too much effort to think of.

Although it's worked fine in the IRC game, I'm not completely comfortable with the default rules, so I wanted to see how the variant would work.

He ended up taking a middle route, trying to please both his father and stick up for Sujit.

CPXB quite gamely kept looking for clues, even though Stephan's closest thing to a perception ability was Quick-witted 18.

Session 4

Returning to his house in Manjipor, Stephan found two pieces of mail waiting: an invitation to a party the next night from Dhavlesh, and an unsigned note saying "Asha knows what Nayan is hiding. She'll talk." As he finished reading, his servant announced that the lady Asha had arrived to see him.

She came to ask him to escort her to a party, the same to which he was invited, because she wanted protection against a noble who'd been bothering her. After some teasing, he agreed, and then asked her about the note. She became distraught, saying that someone had been slandering her father. He persuaded her that he was trustworthy enough to hear more, and she admitted that Nayan did go a little mad when his wife died several years ago, but he hadn't done anything really terrible, and things had been quiet since. She couldn't think of anyone who hated him enough to cause such trouble. They parted on friendly terms, planning to be fashionably late to the party the next night.

Next we went to Barbon, who had a letter of his own waiting at his inn: a plea from one of his cousins to send money, saying that the family had just gotten a big commission but might not be able to meet it. As soon as he digested that, he received his first of several callers. Delfino, assistant to the Portonan envoy, came to ask him to read the thoughts of someone he suspected of sending threatening notes to his friend. In return, he said, he could have Vitale exert his influence on behalf of Barbon's family. Barbon refused, saying it was against the Hasturs' laws, and Delfino left looking glum.

The next morning, Barbon received his second caller, a masked and well-dressed gentleman. This fellow said he wanted to invite Barbon to join an association of individuals who studied powers not taught in the Seers' universities, "things your teachers kept from you because they feared your potential." In exchange for access to an extensive library, friendship, and other training, all that was needed was an oath of secrecy. Barbon said that it sounded good to him, and his visitor assured him that he'd be contacted soon.

Lokesh, meanwhile, had been invited to the same party as Stephan. Recognizing himself as a rustic fellow with no idea what to do at a fancy party, he appealed to Stephan for advice. Stephan instructed him to always remember to act as if he was the most important person in the room--unless, of course, there was actually someone more important present. But not just someone who looks more important, mind; Lokesh must be able to distinguish between apparent and actual importance. Also, he should make free with other men's wives, and be ready to fight if it seemed the least bit appropriate.

Barbon and Stephan then met briefly, to discuss the bones they'd brought back from the plague-stricken village. Stephan gave Barbon a letter of introduction to Fiora, who had mentioned previously that she had a library. Barbon departed to her house, and his research there revealed that the writing on the rib bones consisted of invocations of disease spirits and various obscene threats. The writing on the skull said, "My blessings will fall on those who have opened the way." Barbon reported these findings to Stephan.

Back to Lokesh, who decided to visit Delfino, of all people, for a second opinion on how to conduct himself at the party. He found Delfino's counsel remarkably similar to Stephan's, with a few helpful tips such as "don't flirt with the wife in front of the husband" and "try not to break anything when you're fighting, as it annoys the host." Lokesh left considering himself well-prepared to mix with high society.

The final part of this busy day saw Stephan call on Vitale. He wanted a letter of recommendation for his character, to assist him in gathering a troop of soldiers to call his own. He would, of course, owe Vitale a favor. The worthy (and bored) envoy from Portona agreed. Then, Stephan asked him if he knew of anyone who would wish Nayan harm. Aside from the usual friction between Border landholders and the Crown-appointed vicar of the province, Vitale could think of nothing--but said he would look into the matter. Stephan departed, satisfied.

Last night, I dreamed about needing to prepare bangs for people. I think that's a side effect of moving the session up a couple of days, causing me to go into a frenzy of preparation. I have until next Friday for the next session, and I think I'll need the time, because I see a couple of magic keywords on the horizon. Good thing I'm on vacation right now...

In the above session summary, only the first part (up through Barbon's masked visitor) was planned by me. The rest of the happenings were entirely suggested by the players, which was very fun. I'd never have thought of Lokesh's quest for good social advice (after which he purchased Seynyorean Etiquette 13), and I can't wait to see how he actually does at the party next week.

The two visitors to Barbon were quite funny. He was all about following the rules when Delfino offered to help his family, but I saw his eyes light up when his masked visitor dangled new powers in front of his face. I didn't think I was being especially subtle with the Dark Side schtick, but he didn't seem at all perturbed that a masked man wanted him to swear an oath of secrecy for access to rare texts and training. Oh, well. I'll have the "blood opera" talk with him before it goes as far as the character getting a magic keyword, and we'll see where things go. The player won't be around for two weeks, anyway.

The only other major point was something CPXB mentioned to me after the game. Towards the end of the conversation with Vitale, Stephan tried to persuade him to actually share anything he learned about Nayan (as opposed to just saying he'd share). He got a major victory, and the resistance was lower than Chris expected. I admitted that I was making things up as I went along, and would have made the resistance higher if I'd had it to do over. So, I think I need to draw up some sketchy NPC sheets before the next game, at least to assign ratings to what I see as the core competencies of each character. All in all, though, I had a fun time and I think the players did too. I really appreciate the advice from everyone, here and on the other thread.

Adrienne wrote: He persuaded her that he was trustworthy enough to hear more, and she admitted that Nayan did go a little mad when his wife died several years ago, but he hadn't done anything really terrible, and things had been quiet since. She couldn't think of anyone who hated him enough to cause such trouble. They parted on friendly terms, planning to be fashionably late to the party the next night.

Next we went to Barbon, who had a letter of his own waiting at his inn:

a plea from one of his cousins to send money, saying that the family had just gotten a big commission but might not be able to meet it.

Barbon refused, saying it was against the Hasturs' laws, and Delfino left looking glum.

In exchange for access to an extensive library, friendship, and other training, all that was needed was an oath of secrecy. Barbon said that it sounded good to him, and his visitor assured him that he'd be contacted soon.

Recognizing himself as a rustic fellow with no idea what to do at a fancy party, he appealed to Stephan for advice.

Barbon departed to her house, and his research there revealed that the writing on the rib bones consisted of invocations of disease spirits and various obscene threats.

Lokesh left considering himself well-prepared to mix with high society.

The final part of this busy day saw Stephan call on Vitale. He wanted a letter of recommendation for his character, to assist him in gathering a troop of soldiers to call his own. He would, of course, owe Vitale a favor. The worthy (and bored) envoy from Portona agreed. Then, Stephan asked him if he knew of anyone who would wish Nayan harm. Aside from the usual friction between Border landholders and the Crown-appointed vicar of the province, Vitale could think of nothing--but said he would look into the matter. Stephan departed, satisfied.

Mike Holmes wrote: ]Did this seem like a Bang? That is was CPBX really interested in the potential choice to have pressured her for information? In point of fact, he had his cake and ate it too. That is, he got the information and the girl. So did he have to make a choice at any time, really? CPBX, was it interesting that way? Or did you let him off the hook? Did she ever say, "please don't bring it up?"

The reason that I strongly suspected that it would turn out with Stephan helping her, is because no matter Stephan's goals, the hidden Sex keyword came out in spades here. You women don't realize the power you have over males. That is, given the choice between following your curiosity, or of being nice to a woman, that's really little choice at all for most. Most male players playing male characters will have the character fall all over himself just to help out. She didn't even need land. She's a potential sex partner (to men every reasonably attractive woman is a potential sex partner - yes every one), so the male needs some very strong incentive to go against this.

But what do I know. Was it a bang? Do we feel we know Stephan better now than we did before?

Sure, but was the player satisfied? Probably, players can hang on through a lot of information gathering and whatnot. But why not have Vitale have something that he could act on? Better yet, why not have Vitale only help him with the troops and information if Stephan actually did a specific favor for him?

Well, fortunately you can still do that - Stephan owes Vitale. :-)

CPXB wrote: I'm not sure where that sort of active play falls in with bangs, which are generally passive.

CCW wrote: I'm no great expert at bangs, but I've never thought of them as conflicting with active play. What do you mean when you say they're generally passive?

CPXB wrote: If the GM goes, "I don't care what Stephan's player wants, I'm going to create a bang that pits his honor against his ambition"

So, in the DB game, if I decide that Stephan is, say, going to marry Asha so he can kill Naryan and thus inherit land, without GM intervention, what good are bangs going to do?

StalkingBlue wrote: The problem you point out here is a painful one, and unfortunately one that most of us have suffered in one form or another. But it hasn't got a thing to do with bangs. (Nor with what Adrienne was doing in your game, am I right?) It's simply an abusive GM pushing through their vision of a game regardless of what the players would regard as fun. The important bit of the sentence is, "I don't care what X's player wants, I'm going to..."

Have you experienced a GM who used bangs in such an abusive way? If you have, could you be more specific on what happened?

Without GM intervention. How exactly does that work? Stephan marries Asha, kills Nayan and inherits the land. You state the action, it happens. Is that what you want? Somehow I think it isn't.

Oh and by the way. This...

CPXB wrote: If the GM goes, "I don't care what Stephan's player wants, I'm going to create a bang that pits his honor against his ambition" there's a good chance I'm going to feel railroaded, going, y'know, "But . . . what about me seducing Asha and then, y'know, killing Naryan to inherit?"

CPXB wrote: The GM, on their own, just does them without, generally, any sort of consultation with the character.

The GM misses a clue -- or, IME, which is more often the case they don't know how to handle a player who aggressively pursues a goal for a variety of reasons -- and, bam, you're in the position where the GM is ignoring what the player wants.

You might want to play Universalis to see how it works. GM adjudication is far from necessary to play a game.

Bangs as generally ran require a fairly passive player.

Kerstin,

Uh, so, if good communication is so utterly vital to bangs, why are you suggesting to Adrienne that she just hit Barbon's player with "bang after bang" until he "gets" it? That's not good communication. That's precisely what I'm talking about. Adrienne, who wants to use bangs, isn't even talking with the player (because she believes, and I believe she has reason for this, that he wouldn't really grasp the implications of the conversation); she's just doing them and she's doing them in lieu of good communication. Which you support.

I'm also not going to go do that thing where I go through your posts line by line. That's usually an attempt to obscure the issue. But I'll try to be as simple and clear as I can:

Active players need fewer bangs. Because, unprompted, they get their characters involved in situations and reveal things about their characters without being prompted then bangs -- which are often a GM trying to provoke a specific sort of reaction -- are less relevant and may even be frustrating to a character if they're not about things the player is interested in.

Lastly, uh, I'm not here for you to psychoanalyze my gaming. I most certainly do not need to talk to you about my prior experience with bangs. Your insistence that I do so -- even tho' I don't feel those situations are terribly relevant to the current situation -- confuses me, and the high tone you take in your demands aggravates me.