this may have been covered already, but i couldn't find any discussion of the subject anywhere on this site.

i've seen numerous game books quote popular song lyrics (a perfect example of this would be the core rulebook for vampire: the masquerade), and i'm wondering if this is something that indie rpgs can do as well. aren't there fees? isn't reproduction of copyrighted material (like song lyrics) prohibited without permission (which is usually costly)? how is it that white wolf managed to include hundreds of quotes in one book alone?

has anyone had any experience with this in an indie rpg sourcebook? just wondering. thanks!

deadguy wrote:
has anyone had any experience with this in an indie rpg sourcebook? just wondering. thanks!

Hi there,

None of the following is to be considered legal advice.

I don't ask anyone's permission and I don't pay any fees. Instead, in all my publications, I include a line very much like this: "All mention of copyrighted works is for reference purposes only and is not a challenge of copyright or trademark." Or something like that; I'm not recalling the precise phrasing.

Then I quote as I please, giving full title and author credit. There are limits to the quoting - I try to stay within certain length limits (once or twice I've gone over), I never quote a complete song or a complete story, and I always pick a quote very carefully to accompany a given piece of my own text.

Again, I'm not a lawyer and this is not advice. For all I know, the only reason I haven't been sued eighty zillion times is because my work is totally beneath the radar screen of those folks who are watching for copyright infringement. On the other hand, some much more prominent game companies practice the same policy that I do, and they have not experienced any problems either.

Finally, I want to remind anyone who contributes to the thread that we are talking about quoting, not about using characters or passages as game content. The latter, used without acknowledgment or permission, is what usually gets people annoyed.

Best,
Ron

And just to add a wrinkle: my understanding (I have not researched this issue) is that you can refer to a musician or song by name in fiction, but quoting, say, a stanza of "Yesterday" in your story is verboten. Assuming the story is for sale, of course.

Best,

Blake

Hey,

I probably know just enough about this to be dangerous to myself, but I'll share. There are "fair use" laws that allow writers to quote from the copyrighted works of others without securing permission to do so. I believe you have to be very careful how much you quote though. If a poem is only five lines long, and you quote three lines of it, that's probably too much. You better get permission.

However, I don't think percentage is an absolute guide either. If a book is a hundred chapters long, and you quote two complete chapters, just 2% of the book, that's still probably a copyright infringement.

"Fair use" has not protected musicians who sample a riff from another musician's song and use it in their own. I believe Weird Al always gets permission, even though parody is recognized as an art form that doesn't require permission. I seriously doubt that Mad magazine gets permission.

I've heard people say that quoting from copyrighted works is fine if it's exposing the material to a potential audience. Like it's good for the copyright holder, free marketing or something. "I did him no damage. I didn't infringe him, I did him good." That's not true. Infringement isn't about intent to damage. My understanding of infringement is that it's about whether the owner of the copyrighted work deserves compensation, and whether the owner's right to control where his stuff is appearing has been violated.

But, y'know, this isn't legal advice. So don't subpoena me to your hearing.

Sorry in advance,

Paul

Like everyone else - this is really not legal advice in any way.

I've read all morning about fair use, though, and here's what I've found: it usually applies to educational purposes. You could apply it to quoting in an RPG, though, especially if you could argue that the RPG is commentary on the lyrics/book quote/whatever.

Size of the quote does matter. One line of a book or song is not going to get you fined.

The major factor in this case, though, is that the quote would have no effect whatsoever on the market for the original. You are not only quoting a small amount of a whole, but you're doing it in a completely different format (music lyrics -> text, and even novel -> RPG flavor). No one is going to buy your RPG instead of that Def Leppard tape because you quoted the chorus of "Pour Some Sugar On Me."

Because of that, quoting song lyrics in an RPG should fall under "fair use" relatively easily.

I used a lot of sources, but the main one for this post is: http://www.utsystem.edu/ogc/intellectualproperty/copypol2.htm.

Actually, music lyrics have to paid for, no matter what the length. Steven King tells a story that the only way that his publisher was willing to go to press with CHRISTINE was after King offered to pay the ASCAP licensing fees for all of the 50's song quotes out of his own pocket. It was prohibitively expensive, apparently....although King at this point was already a millionaire, and went into his own cash.

White Wolf pretty much started the whole lyric-quoting thing in the RPG biz...and a lot of other people followed suit. However, the fact of the matter is, what WW did is a copyright violation---just one that ASCAP never noticed.

I think that's the crux, right there: even this industry's larger success-stories are too small to be noticed. But if they are ever noticed, watch out. Lawsuits will fly.

I'm only familiar with the song-lyrics side of the argument, through my experiences with ASCAP (long story). Not sure how it applies to quoting film or written works.

GMS

thanks, all, for the feedback. i'm not sure if it's something i even want to do, but it's best to know this sort of thing beforehand.

strange to think of white wolf as below someone's radar -- they seem vast. but you're right. they're not mainstream culture. not really.

guess that makes me plankton. i kind of like that.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Seek advice of competent counsel before proceeding. Swim at your own risk.

Clinton R Nixon wrote: The major factor in this case, though, is that the quote would have no effect whatsoever on the market for the original. You are not only quoting a small amount of a whole, but you're doing it in a completely different format (music lyrics -> text, and even novel -> RPG flavor). No one is going to buy your RPG instead of that Def Leppard tape because you quoted the chorus of "Pour Some Sugar On Me."

Because of that, quoting song lyrics in an RPG should fall under "fair use" relatively easily.

I don't think you'd be at risk, insert standard disclaimer.

As I understand it, copyright is not a form of intellectual property. The media good you buy, in this case CD's, is the product retailed by the record company - at no point do you pay to hear the music, you pay for the medium on which it was published. Because the motive you had for your particular purchase was the material on the media, it is right and proper that the author should get a cut, which is why the usual arrangement is perecentages and why some people think fixed deals are immoral. Copyright is intended to protect the author from an unscrupulous publisher moving product and failing to give a due cut; however, this applies to the actual work i.e. the music. Reproducing the music lyrics does not in any sense reduce anyones capacity to profit from the actual work rteailed on its media. The time limit on copyrights reflects the recognition that certain works become public domain, as in the case of Jingle Bells.

I'm no lawyer either, but thats how they taught it in my cost and management accounting course; of course our primary focus was physical product.

I may be mistaken, but, I think WW did have some repercussions. I have a first printing of the softback V:TM book, which I believe was recalled from distributors because of copyright issues with the lyrics. As I recall, the next printing had fewer quotes, because they couldn't get permission for all of them.

Anyone else who can confirm or deny this?

Skippy

contracycle wrote: I'm no lawyer either, but thats how they taught it in my cost and management accounting course; of course our primary focus was physical product.

Quoting lyrics is just Wrong.

;)

First up, quoting lyrics is not bad, and you'll just have to register and pay a straight mechanical.

Hello,

I'd like to see a little more signal in this thread. As usual with discussions of IP and copyright, a lot of opinions and impressions are coming up, but we're not really achieving

Ralph, a while ago, you looked up about ten tons of material on copyright issues. Any chance of insight from them regarding lyrics specifically?

I also want to state that I was not as careful as I should have been in my last post - none of the quotes I used in my books were actually music lyrics, and so nothing I said was actually relevant to the topic. I apologize for the carelessness.

In conclusion, I'd greatly appreciate it if folks would consider carefully whether their post really addresses and illuminates the issue at hand, especially when we're talking about the messy and prone-to-wander topic of IP and copyright.

Best,
Ron

A few things,

1) Music lyrics are not intelectual property as such. They are commercial property available for sale, at profit, in the form of physical material good. A sticky point, but as the Napster case established, lyrics, music, and the relevant industry is not an IP industry.

2) Quoting lyrics without permission is a technical violation of copyright. It is also a violation to quote books, poems, or other published material. "Technically" becomes the keyword. While many could sue, none will. I repeat: many could sue, none will. The reasons for this are many-fold:
a) not enough cash. b) takes a long time. c) 25-35% success rate, unless the quote is clearly derogatory to the original intent of the source. d) no one notices. e) artists have this thing about allowing other artists harmless reproduction and use (in many ways, it is an advert.)

That's the law as it reads. An important note to include is this: anyone can sue anyone for anything. The question becomes whether or not the suit will be upheld in the eyes of the law. Quoting lyrics in a game is not a problem, and would only be upheld by the courts in the most extreme of circumstances.

Sidenote: this all does not include such material as has been designated as open source, or public domain. This would include the bible (pick your religious text), and many older composers or songs that never found publication during the lifetime of the artist in general.

To sum up, do what you want, you won't owe money.

Dav

Fair Use is covered in the following document: http://www.loc.gov/copyright/fls/fl102.pdf

There's also a mention of it at: http://www.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html [Which is where I found the fl102 document.]

Really though, no answers are provided. I could argue the issue either way based on the material given and depending on how one defines a RPG book. So I'm just going to hush up. ;)

It's worth pointing out what "mechanicals" are since I mentioned them earlier and y'all might not know what they are. A mechanical is a royalty that is not based on sales but on reproduction. The term is shorthand from the royalty generated when mechanically reproducing a musical work or a part of it. Unless you negotiate for a lower mechanical the going rate is four and a half cents per reproduction.

Which means if you have five quotes that costs you twenty two and a half cents for each book that the printer rolls out. A print run of 2000 would incur a cost of $4500.

It's real easy to get license unless RPGs are on the artist's "do not apporve reproduction" list. In fact you'll ususally go through ASCAP or BMI without the artist ever knowing. If there isn't an ASCAP/BMI notice then contact the artist's management for securing rights. It's also worth noting that several artists have switched over to SESAC to manage their publishing though ASCAP still acts like they do it if you contact them. Check newer albums to see who they're with. If there is any inconsistency check with the artist's management.

i've seen numerous game books quote popular song lyrics (a perfect example of this would be the core rulebook for vampire: the masquerade), and i'm wondering if this is something that indie rpgs can do as well. aren't there fees? isn't reproduction of copyrighted material (like song lyrics) prohibited without permission (which is usually costly)? how is it that white wolf managed to include hundreds of quotes in one book alone?

"Fair use" is completely irrelevant to RPGs. It applies to educational uses, parody, and reviews, and it never applies to song lyrics.

Bailey wrote: Which means if you have five quotes that costs you twenty two and a half cents for each book that the printer rolls out. A print run of 2000 would incur a cost of $4500.

i decided to contact the band whose lyrics i wanted to quote in my game rulebook. they were receptive to the idea, asking only that i note, "lyrics used with permission," and that i cite the band's URL in the publication. this seemed more than fair. they also asked for a copy of the rulebook, which i'm more than happy to do.

there weren't any fees to pay or forms to sign. it was almost too good to be true. so there you have it: if you contact the artist directly, you might obviate legal issues altogether.

Deadguy: how very nice to hear that, in the midst of all this somewhat depressing legalese, a couple of parties can work out something eminently fair without paying any lawyers at all. Here's to common sense!

--JB