When do skills become trademarked/copyrighted? Do skills become trademarked/copyrighted? If your game's skills and skill system are similar to another, is that a problem? Would changing a skill to correct the problem if there is one?

I appreciate any feedback on the legalities of skills for publishing a free PDF RPG game.

Generally, the names of skills are just words or short phrases. A collection of skills may not necessarily require any "art" to compose. In general, skill names are not copyrighted and I do not know of any instance of anyone applying for a trademark for a skill name.

If you're concerned about legalities, consult a lawyer.

My well-educated but non-lawyer opinion is that you have nothing to worry about as long as you do not copy in bulk large amounts from anyone else's work. The fact that your game is free does not change the legalities though it may reduce the publisher's desire to sue you.

Because different role-playing games solve similar problems, it is likely that there will be overlap in certain areas. If your skill system is a lot like another game's purely due to coincidence, do not worry about it. If it's a lot like another game's because you based your skill list on that game's, you are probably plagiarizing and should reconsider. For one, you're really not contributing to the hobby. For two, you might get a nasty-gram from their lawyer.

Perhaps if you showed us the skill list and told us which game it resembles, we could help you more.

Oh, and welcome to the Forge!

I cannot go into details because I am partnering with someone who is unavailable to give me permission to do so at this time.

I am going to have to lean towards, based on what you said, that it is too close to the original at this point in design. Good for home use, but not for publication. If we ever do decide to publish, we'll have to change some of it. That's what I thought, but I wanted a second opinion. Thanks again!

And thanks to everyone for a great board - if I hadn't been reading it, it wouldn't have occurred to me to post to get this feedback.

A free bit of advice unrelated to your question.

When partnering with someone on your game design, make sure you have very a clear cut and agreed upon place where the buck stops. That is, know going in who gets final say on important decisions. It may not be the same person for each decision (e.g. one person may have final say on creative content, another on business and financial matters, another on art direction, whatever). But make sure you know who's word is law for those times when such decisiveness is needed.

The gaming hobby is littered with the battered and bruised bodies of people who thought that they could always "just find a way to agree on what to do".

If you have any commercial aspirations for the project at all...figure out that relationship now (if you haven't already)...long before it becomes an issue. It will save much heartache and bad feelings later.

Actually, my partner is my husband. We cut our teeth on writing a (for fun) BladeRunner (TM) game about 10-11 years ago and phew, THAT was a way to start a marriage! It was a blast when we didnt' want to kill each other. I still remember him slaying my test character Smith by accident because the damage rules were unbalanced.

I agree, you need to know who decides what/does what. Basically for us, we always consult one another on trivial AND important decisions, and agree to agree or disagree. Funny enough, nothing else works for us.

We were really just sniffing out what the options were for publishing, should we try to get paid or do it for free, should we keep it to ourself just for fun like usual, and how much (a lot, actually) more work we would have to do to make a publishable game. Please keep in mind, this game hasn't even been play-tested yet, and has been in development off-and-on only 2 months. I just wanted to see what kinds of options were available.

After developing a game system every two years or so, we've taken the tack now that you should incorporate what works and work back from there - thus our present predicament. We had heard, though, that no one could own skills, and that anyone could use them -- I am VERY glad we verified!

I am just astonished by the number of games available online, free or for money. I guess the question is, is there a need for another RPG? It seems like there is a glut. Would anyone even look at our game if we published it? Does this put anyone else off? Thanks again, Ria

Ria wrote:
I am just astonished by the number of games available online, free or for money. I guess the question is, is there a need for another RPG? It seems like there is a glut. Would anyone even look at our game if we published it? Does this put anyone else off?

Ria, there has NEVER been a better time to self publish an RPG.

The hobby started at a grass roots level before being largely taken over by corporate style game companies. Now advances in technology have made it easier than ever for a indie game designer to publish their own game without going the freelancer route of selling your idea to an existing publisher. There is a sizeable market of gamers ready and eager to try new games, in fact, far from driving other game systems out of the hobby I'd say d20 has been largely responsible for generating a big back lash that's opened the door wider to new game systems.

I think the following are the MOST important areas for you and your husband to consider if you're thinking of self publishing.

1) Have a unique offering. The game doesn't have to be bleeding edge revolutionary...but it also shouldn't be something I could do myself with GURPs or FUDGE and a couple of house rules. My recommendation is to think of all of the many things characters in your game COULD be or COULD do. Then pick what, to you, seems the coolest, most amazing, most exciting characters to play and the coolest, most amazing, most exciting things those characters could do. THEN make your game JUST about those characters doing those things. Design your game so that no other game ever written is better at portraying THOSE characters doing THOSE things and take the approach that any player not interested in those characters and those things can go play something else. That approach will help ensure that your game is unique among the universe of game offerings.

2) Recognize that your game is not going to be the great new fantastic game that will cause everyone to stop playing D&D and White Wolf...and then recognize that this is a GOOD thing and capitalize on it. Since there is no way that you (or any indie publisher really) has a chance of capturing a huge chunk of the gaming market...specialize. Where a game like D&D appeals a little bit to alot of people you have the freedom to appeal alot to a few people. This is VERY liberating. Consider...this is something Wizards and White Wolf CAN'T do. They can NEVER design a game focused and specialized on being unbelievably perfect for a small number of people...because their business model requires sales to a large number of people. They HAVE to cater to a larger market and that means the whole "least common denominator" and "dilution of vision" thing. You, on the other hand, can be quite nicely profitable selling to a very small niche group of players. You can define that niche as exclusively as you want and you can give those players a mind blowing game experience. Even if the "majority" of gamers would turn their noses up and walk away from your game...you can have quite an active little community and thriving business around a very small niche. This ties into the idea of having a unique offering above and I don't have any stronger advice to any aspiring game designer than to approach the business with the idea that being small and low volume is a GOOD thing and seek to take advantage of it.

3) Decide early what would constitute success for you. If you do decide to take the plunge, what will have to happen before you feel happy that you did it? Is just knowing that there are a couple of play groups out there in the world who regularly play your game sufficient to constitue success? Do you need to see your game on game store shelves before you'd consider it to be a success? Are you thinking that you need to be able to make a passable living doing it full time before it would be worthwhile? Would you be satisfied if you just broke even on the expenses? Define what would constitute success first. Then use that to evaluate what your chances are of meeting that criteria and make your future decisions based on achieving those.

4) Avail yourself of all of the many resources available to small press publishers. This site being one of them, but there are many others. You'll soon realize that it doesn't take that much starting capital to commercially publish an attractive, professional quality game these days. And if it doesn't require that much capital, there's little risk to trying.

A skill description, if sufficiently novel, is copyrightable. As for the name of a skill, typically it is not copyrightable.

Longish lists which have some creativity about what was picked and what was excluded -- those are copyrightable, but only as lists. People can use smaller sub-sets of the list, but if they try to produce an identical list or substantially similar list they could violate copyrights.

Scenes a faire rules apply. If we could research and agree, that for a particular genre, about everyone who designs a game will have 30 common skills on their list, and 50 more skills as reasonably common, then odds on that inclusion of any or all of those skills will not generate copyrightability except for identical reproduction of your list of skills. They are just treated as tropes of a genre.

Skill names are trademarkable only if they contain a trademark. Let's say, for example, that you think up a game called ABFE (TM), standing for "Alien Busters from Earth". Well, if some of your skills are "Wear ABFE Armor" and "Use ABFE Weaponry" then those skill names contain trademarks. Normally skill names are not used as trademarks.

Cheers

Veritas Games wrote: A skill description, if sufficiently novel, is copyrightable.

Now that we cleared up the skills issue question, my husband and I set to the problem and cleared it up -- we managed to add greater flexibility while also preserving our original idea. There is absolutely no way someone could call BS or assume we are plagiarizing (that we know of). We still have to come up with a world concept (we are thinking of doing futurish), but want to focus on doing the game system we have always wanted at this time. Once we have that, we will focus on the dramatics.

I am relieved that I did not misunderstand that our game is not needed -- my logic is then, just have fun doing it and don't fret, since more people are going to leave it than take it. Takes the pressure off!

It seems to me, but I could be wrong, that the publishing industry has spun off its collective access (as far as role-playing goes) and people are not even approaching the publishing houses as they once felt they had to. It didn't seem like this a few years ago - now it seems there is a flourishing indie publishing industry that doesn't even need the publishing houses. Does anyone know how this happened, or is the answer just the Internet?

We think our game is original - certainly not cutting edge, but from our hearts and minds and a lot of trial and error, our system is really oriented to our style of play. We hope five other guys like it, but at this point, our level of success is actually getting published. Just to say we did it. We aren't doing this to be rich. My husband (an artist) is going to do the art, so we have decided we will charge $5 or something for it - on principle, as a professional, he refuses to give away his art for free. Having read this forum, it seems like a bad idea to include no art, especially when my husband went to bloody art school and kicks ass!

Thank you for the information about what is copyrightable/trademarkable. Basically, it sounds to me like you should have an idea of what you want and what you want it to do, and put down that description, customizing it as necessary for what the characters will do. I think since most beings have certain universal skills, it's really hard to come up with something entirely novel - but I understand now what is and isn't copyrightable about skills, which I was fuzzy on before. I really liked the example for TradeMarking; it was very clear.

PS - Any conversation where tightie wighties can be used as a comparison to armor has my regards. It brings back the days when my brother wore his tightie-wighties and a cape and was invincible!

daMoose_Neo wrote: Slight correction, you got it right later on: copyright is applied to YOUR description, regardless of what the skill is.

Copyright protects individual expressions upon creation, trademark protects all instances and confusingly similar icons expressly unique to you. IE Pepsi Cola can be copyrighted, but Cola cannot.

My bad on the Pepsi name, I meant the trademark but slipped.

Your description on Tracking, however, is still copyrighted. No, you don't hold the copyright on tracking as a process or a skill, but that set of two paragraphs is yours and yours alone. With something as mundane as Tracking, Bob could write three paragraphs and so long as he does not duplicate your work verbatim, Bob is in the clear. Hell, Jim could come along and write it up in one and still be safe. Should it show up in court for whatever reason, the responsible parties would evaluate content, how similar the pair are, how much is unavoidable with something as mundane as this, and find based on that.
Copyright protects the expression, not the concept. Trademarks cover the concept. Trademarks cannot be applied to mundane concepts as tracking, but a text entry in a game book can be (is) copyrighted.