Recently, I was excited to hear that Trollbabe might be offered in a print version, because I've wanted to buy it for a while, but the fact that it was only offered as a PDF put me off. Thinking about this, I realized it's because I can't see an electronic version as having the same value as print.

Now, I know that there are good reasons for offering PDFs. Not everyone feels the way I do, obviously. Also, customers in countries where shipping would be expensive may find this a better option. I'm not arguing the value of offering an electronic version of a game.

My question is whether publishers who offer PDF games have found any good strategies for winning over individuals such as myself, who can't get past the gut-level aversion to paying for an intangible product. Any information or theories would be welcome.

I'm of the opinion that there is absolutely nothing a publisher can do to overcome a consumer's gut-lever aversion to PDFs.

I mean, if I'm offering a PDF for sale, and you have a gut-level aversion to buying it, that's it. Game over, you're not going to buy it. Right?

Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course. There are drawbacks to PDFs, no question, and some people just don't like them, and that's fine.

To turn the question back to you, what could Ron, the seller of the Trollbabe PDF, have told you that would have convinced you to buy it?

Probably the only thing that would get me to buy a PDF would be knowing that I'd be able to get the print version for a reduced amount. It'd have to be pretty close to what the PDF cost, though -- a $1 discount from buying, say, a $10 PDF wouldn't sway me. I'm not sure where the cutoff would be, but I think the discount would have to be at least a 50% of the PDF price. So, taking Trollbabe as an example, if I knew that my PDF purchase would give me a $5-$10 discount on any eventual print versions, I'd probably talk myself into buying the PDF.

I've often wondered that myself.

I was thinking about a similar approach -- offering a discount on the hard-back version if you buy the pdf.

I was also wondering if it might be a wise decision to offer free or cheap pdfs with the print copy.

In other words, provide some sort of serial number in the print version that allows you to say email the publisher. Said publisher then sends a response email containing the pdf version to the person providing the serial number (which has been cross-referenced with a database).

If you get people interested in pdfs, then eventually they'll want other copies of your stuff in pdf format.

So, after a while, perhaps you could offer pdf-only supplements -- and since the buyers of print versions have seen your pdfs, they'll be more inclined to buy your new ones.

Just some thoughts.

Hmm.

How about you buy Trollbabe, and I send you a bunch of paper with stuff printed on it. An equal amount of paper to the amount that you'd get with the book.

I really don't understand the aversion to PDFs. Do you have the same problem with music? That is, are you unwilling to pay for a MP3 unless it comes on a CD?

So what you're saying is that it's not the art that you want, it's really just the medium? You're actually after the paper?

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Do you have the same problem with music? That is, are you unwilling to pay for a MP3 unless it comes on a CD?

Mike Holmes wrote: So what you're saying is that it's not the art that you want, it's really just the medium? You're actually after the paper?

Well, the only thing I can suggest is "Offer something everyone will want but don't offer it in print."

If you want it enough, you will overcome your aversion and give the PDF a chance.

Meh. This is an evolution of acceptance of a technology, and it will happen at its own pace, and does not need publishers to try to make it happen.

For me, I am in Australia. The total lack of contacts in the US distribution network means that I have no choice but to only make use of the electronic medium to sell my stuff. As it turns out, RPGnow are doing POD so I gave that a burl. 1 sale POD, 30 electronic. There is also the reverse fact that now there are heaps of people that will not pay the extra for the print version of things anymore. Go figure. :)

Warm regards,
Evan

I'm actually pretty aversive of PDFs myself. After thinking about it a while, though, I realized that I'm not, anymore. Buying a couple of them pretty much cured me of the aversion. So I consider it as a case of just not being accustomed to doing something like that. I still don't buy many, but it's more about not buying much stuff overall.

So what I'd be interested in is to get another PDF averse person to buy and play a couple of PDFs, and then see if it still persists. It might be that this aversion is more about hesitance to try something new than about actual PDF-specific aversion. It's interesting psychologically, because if it's just general fear of new things, then there's nothing to be done in terms of improving PDFs - that'll just make them a slightly different kind of new thing, and won't affect the aversion. On the other hand, if there's somebody out there who's still aversive after trying it for real, perhaps that person can tell us what he disliked. Perhaps the same thing is the source for initial aversion as well.

How's that for a zero hypothesis and a test case?

As for the conditions of buying... for me they're exactly the same as conditions for buying other stuff, really. The stimulus just needs to be stronger. Like, I first buy all other Ron Edwards products I can, and then only buy Trollbabe when there's a prospect of getting to play it with RL babes. So the stimulus is the same that'd get me to buy other stuff, but stronger.

Wow, dude, tough one.

Aside from either 1.) Giving you a financial incentive based on forthcoming product or 2.) Giving away a pdf with a print copy so you can get your feet wet with that format in the hopes that you'll realize its a good method of delivery. I don't know what else a publisher could do. I mean from what you say you intellectually realize that a pdf isn't any different, content wise, from the book, but in your case instinctual dislike of pdf prevents you. What more can be done?

There are only two reasons to buy anything. It makes you feel good, or it solves a problem. If the pdf can't offer you either one then what's the point?

I could expound on merits of pdf as a support (strictly speaking a book isn't a medium, it's a support, the medium is the words.) These are the ways they solve problems for me.

The ease of printing sections as necessary for all your players (such as character generation, Luke Crane has begun to sell pdf's of the lifepath chapters of Burning Wheel's character burner.),

The ability to copy and paste sections of the rules as necessary for players, etc.

The low physical storage space necessary for quite a library of games. (I'm already a bibliophile so I got books a plenty.)

Most PDF's I've encountered are below the asking price of the print version, for someone with a budget it's a great consideration, stretching that gaming doller.

Anyhow, sorry I can't help out more, but I get the feeling there isn't much more can be done. I'm not sure how a computer hard drive is any less physical than a book or a CD. Sure, a HD can fail, but a book can be torn, burned, soaked, lost, and CD's can be scratched and broken.

I do understand that you (and me too) get a deep sense of satisfaction from a printed book. They're still easier to read, though screens are getting better.

(aside)
I'd be interested to see that test case solution too, Eero.

best

Trevis

Let me make it clear that I'm not looking for ways to convice people (or myself) that PDFs are good. I'm looking for practical ways to entice people to go the PDF route. Down the line, when I have a product for sale, I'd like to know what will spark sales of all sorts. I plan to offer print and PDF versions, but exactly how I do so is still up in the air.

Evan: Sure, if you want something enough, you'll buy it. But what makes someone who doesn't value PDFs as much as a printed version want the PDF enough to shell out the money for it? Your suggestion of "offer something everyone will want but don't offer it in print" sounds good, but it doesn't work in practice -- at least not in my personal experience. For example, as I mentioned at the start of this thread, I really want Trollbabe, and it's only offered (currently) as a PDF. So, I'm not buying it, which is what made me think about this topic in the first place.

Euro: I have bought games that came with a free PDF (Capes and Dogs in the Vineyard). Yes, they have advantages over print. Still, I'm not going to buy PDF games based on my experiences. So you've got at least one case study right there. As to why I wouldn't buy a PDF-only game...well, I don't know, which is what I find so frustrating. My best theory was the "perceived value" concept.

New Thoughts
As I tossed this topic around in my head, I realized that I'm not averse to buying PDFs, just PDF games. For example, if one of my courses required a text and it came in a print version and a (less expensive) PDF version, I'd snap up the PDF version in a second. As to why, I think it's because I see college texts as purely functional, so cost is my primary consideration. Game texts I see as a luxury item, so quality is more important. This ties back in to my original idea -- I believe, rightly or wrongly, that a physical book has more value than an electronic one.

But still, there's an element of functionality, as well. A book is easy enough to toss in your car and bring to a friend's house, but if you have a PDF, you either need to print it out or drag along a laptop. These add inconvenience and/or expense.

Upon further reflection, I realized another scenario where I'd buy a PDF -- if it was specifically formatted for a PDA. Since my Palm controls my life, it's always on me, and I can carry it around in my pocket. It'd be easy enough to use at the gaming table, and you'd still be able to seach and keep most of the other advantages of a PDF.

Re: answer to my point: fair enough. Guess you don't want the Tollbabe enough.

So the answer is "what would make you want the item enough to overcome your aversion to pdfs to get it." You might as well ask "what marketing strategy will make you want something like this more?"

Anything targeted to increase interest in the product is key. but if you want a specific strategy to crow-bar a sale from someone with reticence to the concept of pdfs, try:

1) offering discount on print. Mentioned elsewhere and done almost universally by everyone.
2) Give away freebie PDFs in the same line that show how neat and useful the concept is.
3) Offer discounts to other items only available to people that buy the pdf (vouchers) and let everyone know they need to buy the pdf to get the discounts on the other (print?) stuff
4) Offer to send the pdf to the client on CD. (hard copy transition)

Hope some of that helps...

Evan

I think the PDA bit is a great idea! That is the one point where PDF is lacking (short of actually printing it out and putting it in a folder, which is what I do most of the time.)

I suggest that there is a big enough part of the market that will buy PDFs that I don't think you need to convince or entice people who are fundamentally averse to buying them. I think the best suggestion I've seen so far in this thread. for making the PDF more sellable is the one you made above about formatting for PDA devices. It would even be more slick if you could package a custom die rolling program with it that works on PDA platform or a character generation app. Also making sure the entire text is properly hyperlinked. I mean, make it something really useable in its electronic form. In other words, maybe delivering a more comprehensive electronic tabletop gaming product would be a strong incentive to those who would ordinarily avoid PDF. (Of course maybe we are talking about a completely different product, other than PDF, at this point.)

best,

Trevis

PlotDevice wrote: Re: answer to my point: fair enough. Guess you don't want the Tollbabe enough.

This seems so specific to you as a consumer, Andrew. Your assumption is that you are in some vast majority that means that you have to market to yourself in order to make sure it gets to everyone.

Well, ignore for a moment that there are people like myself who are more likely to buy a PDF than a print copy of the book. I'll admit that I am in a minority there, likely (though not for long, I sense). PDA formatting? I mean, yay, go for it. But how many people actually have PDAs? I don't. And I'm a computer geek.

This would be a marginal increase in sales at best. Heck, I don't even own a laptop. What do I do with PDAs? Well, I print just the few pages I need for reference. If an RPG needs a full book that needs to be constantly referenced, then I don't want to play that RPG. Nobody wants to play that RPG. If you can't print out the essential references on just a few pages, then the game has worse problems than PDF format sales will produce.

In any case, I do want a laptop. Because how much heavier is that than a book? If the game is D&D, the laptop will be lighter than the books. And oh so much easier to reference. I do, in fact, usually email the PDF to the place where I'm going to play (yeah, very techically illegal, but we erase the copy so...). Just in case I absolutely do have to reference something. Never had to use it so far, however.


As for reading... I don't want to get too off on a tangent, but I've never understood this one. What makes a book easier to read than a screen? The whole CRT eyestrain thing has been discredited (believe me, I have my eyes glued to a CRT for as many as 14 hours a day). I absolutely hate books. No matter how I read them, either my arms get tired holding the book up, or fall asleep in other positions. I literally can't find a comfortable position to read a book in. Reading on a computer screen is the only time in my life that I've been comfortable reading. I don't have to turn pages (risking dropping the book and losing my place), just click in the scroll bar or on a hyperlink. Ah, hyperlinks (I actually prefer HTML to PDF as it reads better on screen). If there's a reference, a good PDF will allow me to get there just by clicking instead of flipping pages and losing my place. I can click "back" to get back to where I was.

And best, if I can't remember where something is, I have the Find function. I mean, how many hours of my life has this saved? So, is reading a book easier somehow? I remain completely unconvinced.

I completely understand that you're talking about your own emotional position regarding this. But as others have pointed out, if you can't be convinced of the advantages of PDF, then the only things that can be done to make a PDF more attractive is other marketing (which would make it attractive otherwise and has nothing to do with the format).

But I'd consider that you are actually in the minority. Oh, yes, there are people who prefer books. But prefer them to the point of never buying a PDF no matter how much they want the product? I think that's pretty rare. You're not the only one I've seen say this, but most PDF haters say, "Well, I don't like having to buy it this way, but I'll do it if it's the only way." And what do they use as an emotional rationalizer? The fact that the PDF costs less.

Nobody charges the same price for a book and a PDF. It would be non-sensical to do so, because the producer doesn't pay for the paper. So neither should you as the buyer. The point being that you're actually solely paying the price of the ideas when you pay for a PDF. Most people understand this.

So, again, you're creating only a marginal increase in sales here by catering to people with your own peccadilloes about the format. Note that when we put out Universalis, I would have personally prefered to have PDF only as a consumer. But as a producer, I realized that there were advantages to the print format in terms of sales and such. So we went with that. I ignored my own personal preference in the name of sales.

So, ask yourself, is this really a problem that needs to be solved? Or just Andrew wishing that things were different?

Mike

Well, yes, of course this is specific to me, Mike, it's about my own preferences. I recognize I'm a minority. And no, I'm not trying to change the market or create a distribution system that caters to my own tastes. I'm simply pointing to myself as an interesting example of strong consumer preferences as they relate to PDF games. I've worked to identify the root of my aversion in order to see if that brings about any broader considerations about games in electronic formats.

So, no, there's no problem to be solved. No agenda here either, other than, "Hey, I find my own emotions on this topic unusual and noteworthy, let's discuss it, and see if that takes us anywhere interesting." That's all I'm looking for, and I'd be just as interested in doing the same for someone who'd never buy the print version.

As to your point about PDA-formatted electronic game texts being a minority, I'd agree. But in previous threads, publishers have noted that PDF and print sales combined create higher sales than either one by itself. Wouldn't it be likely, or at least worth discussing, that offering an even wider range of options or formats would also increase sales?

Andrew,

I too prefer hard copies to pdf files.

I have not paid for and pdfs, nor do I have plans to; however, I don't plan to own any pdfs that I should have to purchase -- i.e. copyrighted material that should be purchased in pdf.

But, I do plan to actually publish my own games via pdf first which kind of makes me scratch my head.

I have the same aversion to pdfs that you do, but I think mine might be even greater. I would prefer not to have pdfs. I like the smell and feel of books. I prefer to hold it in my hands and staring at an unlit page that I have to look at under a warm lamp.

Call me a curmudgeon or an ancient freak of by-gone days, but I would much rather use the "real thing" as opposed to electronic bits.

I don't want to be tied to my computer (even though it's a laptop) any more than necessary.

So, with that, know that I fully appreciate your position. I too would like to know a way to make pdfs more "palatable" or appealing to a wider audience (including myself).

I don't have any salient comments or wisdom to post right now, just some support.

Always,
Kenny+

Andrew Morris wrote: As to your point about PDA-formatted electronic game texts being a minority, I'd agree. But in previous threads, publishers have noted that PDF and print sales combined create higher sales than either one by itself. Wouldn't it be likely, or at least worth discussing, that offering an even wider range of options or formats would also increase sales?

Mike,

One of the reasons I would say that PDF is the more popular electronic distribution format is due to the fact that most of the material has its origins in printed media. I, as a designer can do a lot more cool stuff with a layout app than I can in straight html.

Another likely reason is it is cheaper and easier for me as a publisher to export a PDF from my source material than it is for me to take the time and reformat an html version.

Multimedia shit is cool. I should know, it is what I do for a living. But it is all about diminishing returns. It would take me twice as long to take a print piece (even if it is just word text) and create a dynamite multimedia presentation, be it a DVD, a Flash/Director piece or some other poison that tickles your fancy.

Keith

I find that my choosing between PDF and print often has to do with how much I know about the game and whether or not I think it's worth the cover price.

If I want to try out a game that I'm unfamiliar with I'm much more likely to buy the PDF which is almost always cheeper for the same content. If the print version is particularly nice, or if there are a lot of pages to print I might eventually buy the print version despite having to pay twice.

If you really want to encourage people to buy the PDF you can include additional material that isn't available in the print version.

I like the idea of using Flash and stuff like that in a game, but i don't think html is the way to go about it. I bought the html version of EPICS a few years back and I found it quite annoying to deal with. HTML has lots of advantages as far as navigating and using Flash, but layout wise it's just aweful unless you really know what you're doing.

Now if you could incorporate Flash into a PDF, that would be awesome.

On a related note, WOTC is now offering their core books in PDF format. However, they are charging the exact same price as the print version which I just don't get.

,Matt

Matt Gwinn wrote: Now if you could incorporate Flash into a PDF, that would be awesome.

On a related note, WOTC is now offering their core books in PDF format. However, they are charging the exact same price as the print version which I just don't get.

Bob Goat wrote: One of the reasons I would say that PDF is the more popular electronic distribution format is due to the fact that most of the material has its origins in printed media. I, as a designer can do a lot more cool stuff with a layout app than I can in straight html.

Another likely reason is it is cheaper and easier for me as a publisher to export a PDF from my source material than it is for me to take the time and reformat an html version.

Multimedia shit is cool. I should know, it is what I do for a living. But it is all about diminishing returns. It would take me twice as long to take a print piece (even if it is just word text) and create a dynamite multimedia presentation, be it a DVD, a Flash/Director piece or some other poison that tickles your fancy.

Mike Holmes wrote: [I don't mind printed versions being available, you know. I just don't want them myself, if an electronic version is available. :-)

Hi Chris,

I think you're missing an element which, culturally, appears to have occurred without much pain: customers of PDFs routinely print and bind them. Again, apparently this has not been as much of an obstruction as initial foes of PDF publishing anticipated.

Therefore now it's very common for a person to buy a PDF product, print it, and then play the game with the "book" in front of the group as usual.

Don't confound electronic commerce with (a) electronic usage of the product or (b) computer-mediated play.

Best,
Ron

But, as the guy who doesn't print them out entirely - and I'm probably rare in this, again - I've already said what I do in these cases where I'm playing FTF. I print out only the parts of the game text that I need to play. Which is often about three pages. Or less. Yes, three unbound pages, but...

When I have game books and they are there, they don't come out of the bag often. When they do, yeah, it's an insufferable delay. Basically with the games I play, I don't need books to play them. They are well enough designed, and short enough, generally, that I can memorize the entire text on how to play. If not in the first session, by the third at most.

Everything you need to play Hero Quest, for instance is just a fraction of this handout: http://www.glorantha.com/support/GameAids.pdf I managed to get it down to only one or two pages, and didn't need that after only a couple of sessions. If I am uncertain of the rules, I just make something up, and then check between sessions in most cases. I don't stop to check what's in the book during play if I can help it.

So a book is waaaay more than I need to have on hand to run the game. In fact, I often intentionally "forget" to bring it along just to avoid the temptation to get it out. Much easier if I only have a PDF version. :-)

Anyhow, like I said, when I do this, I often email the PDF there to be sure it's available in case of emergencies, but, to date, I haven't needed to resort to this.

Oh, BTW, one more thing I hate about books. You have to handle them carefully. My books all look like trash, because, as objects, I really don't care about them so much as what's in them. So they tend to fall apart over time. The lamination on my Hero Quest is coming off in the most annoying fashion (makes me want to rip off the cover entirely). I can't mishandle an electronic version. And, yes, I make backups of everything so that I don't ever lose games due to computer frying - that's basic to using an electronic format (or should be).

All that said, I think that having a game on a laptop is no more distracting than having a book handy. Why would it be so? A tendency to use the laptop for something else? That's an uninterested player, not the fault of the computer. Same player watches TV while the game is going on if allowed to do so.

So until you at least come up with a hypothesis as to why a computer is more distracting, its at least going to sound to me like computer hating. I'll admit that I'm a computer lover, and don't actually expect people to have my preference on this.

You like minis? What do you think of this? http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=122099&page=1&pp=40

Mike

Okay, so if you break down (as the case may be) and buy the PDF vs. print version, what makes it so valuable compared to print (obviously the price and accessibility, but what else)? How can you make it more valuable than a printed version?

Won't people mis-handle an 'unlocked' PDF or will they respect the copyrights? What if you could email the authors and ask for an unlocked version even if the main PDF was locked? Or does it have to be unlocked when you buy it? Is an unlocked PDF more valuable than the printed word? Would that entice buyers, even if they avoid buying PDF games?

If some buyers don't want to buy PDF, shouldn't you make a printed version available? Let the buyer choose? I mean if you're going to boil something down to the size of a hand-held, wouldn't it be worth-while to make a print copy available? Even if it's not fancy? Would a non-fancy paper version be better than a PDF to some people?

Ria wrote: Won't people mis-handle an 'unlocked' PDF or will they respect the copyrights?

Is an unlocked PDF more valuable than the printed word? Would that entice buyers, even if they avoid buying PDF games?

If some buyers don't want to buy PDF, shouldn't you make a printed version available? Let the buyer choose? I mean if you're going to boil something down to the size of a hand-held, wouldn't it be worth-while to make a print copy available? Even if it's not fancy? Would a non-fancy paper version be better than a PDF to some people?

Your question is valid. And though a few of these designers wear chips on their shoulders, I will answer your question from a gaming company that has done it's share in research on this matter, and even purchased studies from other gaming companies, as it has been a major concern of ours.

PDF files, while convenient for some, and certainly enable the low budget designer to release their game to the public, are not accepted as reputable, products. What does that mean? It means that (and we actually did this study ourselves) if you hand someone a CD (in a full color, professionally printed CD plastic casing) at a gaming convention with a PDF file on it, it is likely to end up in the trash. If I handed someone a physical print out (well produced full color stack of paper, but not bound) they seemed to respect it. How do I know? Because we imprinted on the back of the CD and printed material a registration codes to get the full version, and while only a handful of CD takers registered, nearly all the paper or hardcopy handouts did register. And while they registered, we offered them some choices - Would you like the full version in hardcopy printed form, non-bound, stack of paper or a CD with the PDF file? Again, most people chose the non-bound stack of paper...Why? Its perceived value, that is why.

There is many studies done that reflect this simple fact. That was only one. Our company will offer both choices to the consumers, as the PDF file is accepted as a more economical solution for people already interested in your game. While the book offers people a feeling of legitimacy. If you don’t have a large budget, then look towards a grass roots approach. Sell your product to friends, and market the game at local gaming conventions. Then take your PDF sales and save the money to afford your first P.O.D job.

OR

If you have some business sense, and I mean more then a college degree. And you believe in your product, develop a business plan and setup meetings with large distributors and gaming companies. If you are excited about your product, they will be excited too.

In regards to PDA I believe that they are not popular enough to facilitate the costs of writing your game on such a device. If you wanted to create a device that would facilitate your game - including digital dice rolling, I would look towards a Flash application on cell phones, as almost everyone has a cell-phone.

With all that being said, the question really is, what is your marketing plan?

I hear over and over, about how there is no real money in this market. And it makes me laugh each and every time. The only reason there is no money, is because people are creating games, without any business sense. Marketing is the key to making your game popular and financially successful. This forum should focus on business plans as much as it focuses on game design. I can promise you, that I can take the crappiest game on this forum and sell thousands of copies more then the best designed game here.

As for the no money comment: Let me give you the financials on a company that creates a popular tabletop game:

Avg Sale: $35.00
Worldwide marketing: European, US
Yearly Sales: $7 million

Last time I checked: $7million is a lot of money

One last hint, don't limit yourself to US markets. These games are far more popular in Germany and other European countries.


And another note, the constant comments like: This seems specific to you Andrew, and what your motives Andrew, further denote the hostility in this market that keeps the amateur designers that populate this board, amateurs. The only truth about this market is that it’s hostile. So as you are considering the points here, weed out the information, and dump the smartass comments of no-name designers that would like you to perceive their self generated egos. And then take the people who are kind and genuine and reward them with replies and gratitude, and eventually the worthless shall dissipate or adapt.

What can you expect; everyone has balls when they are behind a computer screen

Of course don’t take my word for it, I am just some guy behind a computer…

Ryan, thanks for sharing your personal experiences with this. I'm not surprised to hear about your results when offering a game on a CD versus a print out of the same material. Heck, I'm the first one to say that I have a preference for print, so it's not a stretch for me to think that others feel this way as well.

And I'm certainly not going to dispute the power of marketing and advertising, since that's the field I work in. I've seen plenty of inferior products beat out superior products.

The question I'm really looking to answer is "why?" Why do I (and others) perceive electronic versions of a game as less valid or valuable than a print version?

As to the perceived hostility of the other posters, I don't think that's accurate at all. I honestly don't believe that anyone who'd posted was doing anything but attempting to discuss and address the topic. Now, I don't agree with everything that's been stated in this thread, but I have found the discussion to be honest, open, and useful.

Andrew Morris wrote: Ryan, thanks for sharing your personal experiences with this. I'm not surprised to hear about your results when offering a game on a CD versus a print out of the same material. Heck, I'm the first one to say that I have a preference for print, so it's not a stretch for me to think that others feel this way as well.

And I'm certainly not going to dispute the power of marketing and advertising, since that's the field I work in. I've seen plenty of inferior products beat out superior products.

The question I'm really looking to answer is "why?" Why do I (and others) perceive electronic versions of a game as less valid or valuable than a print version?

As to the perceived hostility of the other posters, I don't think that's accurate at all. I honestly don't believe that anyone who'd posted was doing anything but attempting to discuss and address the topic. Now, I don't agree with everything that's been stated in this thread, but I have found the discussion to be honest, open, and useful.

I see what you are saying regarding print vs. PDF, and you answered one of my questions. I was wondering if we offered printed material whether we should bind it or not. Thank you!

Also, in general, I don't think you're going to replace that feeling of owning something that you buy and hold in your hand vs. a PDF which you have to print out (perceived work AND payment and resources).

Also, I buy things visually - if I like the look of something, I pick it up and flip through it. If something seems put together with good eye-candy and useful material as well, I'll buy it. I think a web-site that offers PDF has to offer me the same thing looking at the book in the store would, or I am not going to think the creators know what I want or what they're talking about.

I also think that CDs or PDF are useful to give as a supplement, but I wouldn't want them instead of a book. It goes back to perceptions. For instance, I was reading the Dark Matter series, and they decided to put the next book online to be printed out by me. Screw that I said, and I stopped reading the series. I'd rather go to the store and buy it, than print it myself unless there are outstanding circumstances that show me why a PDF is just as good as a book.

I do not think this is prejudice or Ludditism, I think one literally has more value than another. I am glad to see I am not the only one who thinks that way. And no, I don't think someone can change my mind, because that's what I feel and believe and that's unlikely to change, no matter whether I should change or not.

Ria, Ryan, you haven't really read this thread very carefully. Because if you had, you'd see that nobody here really disagrees with what you're saying. For example, I pointed out repeatedly how my personal predelictions for PDF had no bearing on their acceptability or percieved perceptions of the public - that in fact, the general public feels otherwise. I made no attempt to make Andrew think that the public wants these products more than printed books (and I don't think anyone else did, either). Again, if you think that's what I was saying, you weren't reading very closely.

Other of your assertments you make here have been addressed in other places. Take some time to read up.

As for my snarky comments to Andrew, the reason he didn't get up in arms about them is that he knows me, and I know him. The Forge is not some anti-social posting board with no personal context. So before you come in with all sorts of assumptions, you might want to get to know the place a bit. It's substantively different than other sites this way.

No, I'm not a moderator, just a concerned member, so take it as you will.

Mike

1) I think people have to work harder to get taken seriously if they do PDF only.

2) I think a lot of websites are not as professional as they could be, or aren't designed and laid out well, and they don't offer a perceived value. I have seen a lot of amateur looking websites or even really bad websites, and few top-notch ones. This makes the products seem cheap or, well, amateur. If I want to buy a product, it will likely be from a professional, not a hobbyist or perceived hobbyist. I won't give examples because this isn't a slam, but I'm sure one can find stuff out there that shows this example.

3) Even if the website is top of the line, if they offered me a hard-copy, I would buy that instead of a PDF. I don't think I am alone in this, and if one wants to reach the largest potential market possible, maybe one (as in any indie publisher) should make a hard-copy available.

Since this is supposed to be a forum for an exchange of ideas, I don't see how these points do not add to the conversation. I was under the apprehension that this topic covered a particular segment of the market and their preferences, which are largely based on the perception that PDFs are not worthwhile. I think if some of these issues were addressed, I, as one of these people who prefer hard copy, would feel my needs were being addressed. If those needs are not addressed, if one does not work to change my assumption, my assumption will remain as it is, and I will not buy PDF games. This is offered in the sincerest hope someone finds this feedback useful.

Ria wrote: Since this is supposed to be a forum for an exchange of ideas, I don't see how these points do not add to the conversation.

Andrew Morris wrote:

Ria wrote: Since this is supposed to be a forum for an exchange of ideas, I don't see how these points do not add to the conversation.

The original topic was to discuss whether it's possible to make PDFs palatable to those who don't perceive them as being as valuable as a print version. Discussion along the lines of "you should also offer a print version," doesn't address that point. It's not a matter of stifling exchange of ideas, just of keeping them on topic.

To make an analogy, it's like asking for strategies to make people who instinctively dislike motorcycles consider buying one, then pointing out "you should also sell cars."

While I'm not a moderator, I suggest that this thread has served its purpose, and all further discussion should take place in new threads.

Ryan. That is entirely enough attitude from you.

For future reference as to how the Forge works, Andrew created this thread. Therefor Andrew can determine what is and isn't on topic for the thread. Not you. If you have additional comments to make that Andrew has declared to be off topic, you are welcome to start your own thread and set the topic as you please. You don't get to ramrod your opinion on what is and isn't on topic through on this thread. And you sure as hell don't get to use some "professional vs. amateur" bullshit to pretend like you have the authority to do so.

I don't know what your "professional" credentials are. Or how you've acquired your "business sense" but if you are as skilled in the areas of business and marketing as you claim, then I'm sure you have alot of great suggestions and advice to contribute to this site, particularly in the Publishing forum.

But leave the condescending attitude at the door. Whatever chops you think you have elsewhere don't make you anything special here.

To be honest, It looks like you all are doing great, and don't need help from me or the companies I work with. Our reason for coming to this site was based on a recomendation from a very fine author of books on game design, and we thought our recent market poll could use some research from beginner, amateur, and professional game designers. Speaking of which, the only thing that seperates anyone is passion for your product, and the ability to listen. I have collected the research I needed from this site, and I will return as promised to post the nearly 10k results we received, to help anyone who can utilize them.

I bid everyone good luck, and look forward to seeing your products on the shelves.

Ryan

This is off-topic, but in direct response to a question I was asked. I'll be brief.

I'm sorry Ryan, but I have no hands-on market research. I go from my own reactions and my gut, and that is that you can't make someone want something they perceive as valueless or a bother.

The only way to fix that is to find a different way to give them what they want, make a concession so to speak. If you're only going to give a PDF, then make it seem as good as a book, or better. I think this reassures the customer and encourages them to make future purchases even if they normally wouldn't, because they perceive that you give them what you want. In other words, make a promise and deliver. The web-site is the promise, your product is the delivery. DON'T PROMISE MORE THAN YOU CAN DELIVER, or you shoot yourself in the foot!!!

The question a publisher has to ask his or herself about their website is, does this show the product (in whatever format) to its best advantage? Does it reassure the consumer that their money will be well-spent? Does it answer any questions or leave doubts or sow confusion? ANYTHING you sell where the consumer has to take your word for it (instead of like where they can handle it, in a store) puts the risk on the consumer. Reduce that sense of risk, and you make a sale. I only like to gamble in Vegas, so to speak.

I think a website can boost sales if done well and can really instill a sense of value and desire in someone if done right. Look at a few movie sites with their trailer. They have to get someone into the theater, and a lot of someones, because they put all the money up up-front. Their web-designs MUST tease the viewer, and also answer questions, what's it about, what's in it for you, why would you like it.... If more people did their game sites in a similar fashion, I think people would be more game to try new games, again in whatever format. Based on these movie sites, I plan on watching or buying something; a website is like an online commercial -- but I can look at it whenever I feel like it, as often as I want, and I can send a copy to all of my friends if it's really cool (!!!).

The other thing to remember is having teasers before something becomes available (an ad for a pre-release item) and eventually a page for the newly released item. Make sure a release date is on the pre-release notice. Don't ever forget the drama of anticipation -- people get excited about things, and mark them on their calendar. If you're excited about your product, other people get excited too.

Finally, if it works for the big boys, why wouldn't it work for the little guys? I feel it's important to let the people who can afford to do the market research do so, and I just learn from what they do. It's important to remember we don't live in a vacuum, and not to design things as if role-playing was so different from anything else. It's an entertainment product, and needs to be marketed as such.

An example of a movie site I'm talking about is: http://www.eternalthemovie.com/default_f.asp

I am not saying you need to have a trailer on your website, I am saying look at what they did here. Look at the information they packaged to the audience. How can you do the same thing for your audience? Unless you convince me I want your product, PDF or not, I won't buy. Convince me I want your PDF - sell me on what it's going to do for me. Isn't your PDF the same as all the other thousand PDFs out there? Convince me it's not.

I'm done posting on this topic, since it seems to just irritate people. My apologies in advance to those who find this irrelevant. Thank you for your time. I wish you well.

Andrew Morris wrote:
My question is whether publishers who offer PDF games have found any good strategies for winning over individuals such as myself, who can't get past the gut-level aversion to paying for an intangible product. Any information or theories would be welcome.

Well naturally there are many different values which both formats present, and I do believe that the more means of exposure you have, the greater your chances of gaining a customer.

I do agree with Mike Holmes that reading at a computer screen is generally more comfortable and easier to navigate in some ways. I do however feel that I can more easily get a point of reference by viewing an entire page in hand, whereas in PDF format it's a bit hard since the formatting does not allow for clear viewing of full pages unless your LCD monitor has flipped landscape capabilities (and very few do).

Then of course there is the physiological argument of it. Print just provides a higher material value for most people. If you can't physically feel it or see it's perceived value, most people are less inclined to get it. this is the exact reason that most people decline extended warranties when buying electronics and other items when the warranties are offered. There is no tangible value, it;s the same thing with insurance.

I think the bottom line of PDFs is that they are an excellent promotional tool. If a publisher has PDF version of their game at less than half the price of the full version, more people will be willing to take the plunge and take a chance on that game since the cost is much less. Throw in the "discount on hard copy for PDF purchases" deal and you have a formula for success. For instance our printed RPG book The Crossroads of Eternity retails for $24.99, we are going to sell a PDF for $9.99 and discount the printed book by the cost of the PDF for those who buy the PDF first.

My point of thought on this is that you are not out any sales since 1) the PDF didn't cost anything (no cost of goods) 2) they paid for the hard copy and thus have it in print anyways so you aren't out anything by them having both formats for the same price, and 3) the customer may feel a bit less jilted in paying $9.99 for a game they may not like, than if they spent $24.99 for the hard copy and now have a physical book they don't need lying around. They may even be inclined to try out a different product since the cheaper PDFs are available.

Format wise, PDF's are most popular since the acrobat distiller is a format that many major press printers use (mine included) which means a PDF output is needed to go to press anyways. The embedded fonts are also a nice plus so you don't need to mess around with including all font material with your printing material submissions. PDF's are also universal, one program reads them (acrobat) which is free to download and use, and included on so much retail software, that's it's quite easy.

Web formats I think are just silly, since all web browsers view the content differently and formatting would be a chaotic mess. Not only that, but formatting is difficult for those of us who program in raw HTML code without a GUI.

Of course the point then comes, the more formats the more potential sales, but also you cannot please all the people all the time, if you over diversify you loose the primary focus of your product and also have the ever daunting problem that you will have to be constantly updating content in multiple formats in order to keep everyone on the same page. Luckily for me, PDF and print content goes hand in hand anyways, but other mediums can bog down progress. I have plans for a flash based resource CD which highlights most of the aspects of the game for quick reference. This was an idea to increase ease of accessibility of the content because bottom line is that most people do not memorize all the material in a game, they like to have reference material on hand so that they can concentrate on the story which is happening around them, but that's a totally different point for a totally different topic. I myself don't even know all the ins and outs of every table and chart in my own RPG, but I know right where to flip to in a book to show you.

Personally I prefer to have a book in hand for play. I have tried to use PDF formats during the process of running a game with friends and found it entirely too constrictive, access time is so much slower than if you have familiarity with the location of the content in hard copy form. I like being able to just flip through or look up in contents/indexes the desired material rather than scrolling through page after page in a PDF. In the learning stage of reading the game and understanding it, I do very much agree that PDf is a better and much more clean format, but once we hit the game table, give me a book baby.