Hi,

I'm hoping some members of this forum can chime in and help me out - I'm experiencing a bit of a creative failure regarding a take on demons I'm excited about. Here's the kernel of my idea:

It's 1750, and modern science is obsessed with electricity without understanding it at all - there are Leyden jars and static machines and lots of crackpot theories about resinous electrical fluid. Electricity invoked by humans is essentially a brand new phenomena. I'm thinking that the demons of the setting live between the electrons somehow - they are energy, and they can be unleashed by a very small coterie of top-flight scientists, including people like Ben Franklin and a young Henry Cavendish.

Although "beings of pure energy" and "weird background noises" are listed as possibilities for demon origins, all the examples in Sorcerer seem to posit real, physical demons that can have direct conversations with the sorcerers. All the examples for needs and desires are straightforward - "desires mayhem", "needs the still-beating heart of a Kinko's employee". But these don't seem to map to more ephemeral types, like my electrical demons. What do these things *need*?

Since the science is new, Lore seems like it would be universally low. I'm interested on your take about this - whether it would be problematic, and if so, what to do about it.

Some demon types (passing) and many abilities (big, shapeshift, etc) just don't fit my idea. Having never played Sorcerer, I'd like to ask how finely tuned the lists are, and whether heavily modifying it throws off play balance or the quality of the experience.

Thanks for your suggestions and feedback!

--Jason

In my experience all of the aspects you list - demon needs/wants, lore levels, demon types/powers - are somewhat secondary to the actual action of the game. That threw me too when reading the game first, but when you consider it, a demon's a demon. Doesn't matter much what it can do or what it wants, as long as it's suitably rigged to the Humanity definition.

Which brings us to the meat of the matter: what's your humanity definition? That's the absolutely most important thing to define, the exact demon abilities and such are rather insignificant in comparison.

While waiting for your take on Humanity, some random notes about your questions:

Demons communicating with sorcerers: some demons can speak, but not all. In the main book there's the gun named Woo, for instance, and it's assumed that most object demons can't speak. This is explained well in... Art-Deco Melodrama? Some old thread anyway, with a demon paint brush. The key idea is that the demon still has ways to communicate:
- Refuse to use powers until sorcerer guesses what it wants
- Communicate by position and arrangement, if it's an object: stuff like always waiting at the door of the apartment when the sorcerer wakes up, wanting to go out (object demons can move, but only when not seen)
- Communicate by phenomenon, if it's a light/gas/whatever presense: for example, cause the windows to rattle
- If all else fails, the sorcerer could try a contact ritual if the campaign metaphysics allow (some times it makes sense to allow a contact to a summoned and bound demon, if it's seen as residing in some otherworld even when bound) to talk to something that won't normally be able to talk. A kind of seance.

Demon needs and wants for abstract beings: it's not necessary for demons to have widely varying needs and wants. Also, they don't have to make sense. It's better if they're relevant to the Humanity definition, though. If I may riff on your electrical demons, some ideas:
- Eating electricity, simply. How are you gonna procure, especially if it's large amounts? This could be the standard need.
- Normal ones, like violence and blood. Why not? The demons are weird electricity beings with inhuman aesthetics. Like Hellraiser demons, perhaps human suffering has some meaning to them that's unperceivable to us.
- Emotions. If thought is electrical impulses, there's a kind of poetic sense in demons feeding on human thoughts. Perhaps they like certain kind of emotion better than others.

General Lore levels: I suggest that you not worry overmuch about the hypothetical lore levels or other stats of NPCs. What matters are the PCs. If a PC has a high lore, that obviously means that he knows more about the electrosorcery than most of his peers. Perhaps he belongs to an ancient Aristotelian conspiracy, or that "high" Lore is just relative? Similar explanations can be found if you for some reason really want a high Lore NPC.

Demon types and abilities: It's perfectly viable to limit demon powers and invent new ones for the campaign. It took me a while to understand, but that power list is not very necessary to play the game, even if it's represented as authoritative. You could, for example, decide that all the electricity demons get Cloak for free, and can only have powers from a list of six or seven possibilities. Nothing in the game will be broken, it'll just mean that demon activities are somewhat more predictable.

The explanation for the latter feature is that each of those powers in the list is balanced independently of each other towards the dice currency. They only represent special ways to project the demon's statistics all over the place, game mechanics snippets, if you will. The worst possible "unbalance" that can happen is that a player has a really dangerous demon, while none of the NPCs is even a sorcerer. Being that this is a pretty common situation in Sorcerer, it's a given that you can't cause any bigger unbalancing by removing powers. Even adding more powers will cause no problems as long as the dice currency is respected.

Anyway, tell us about the Humanity, and you get more exact ideas if you still need any.

Thanks Eero, that's enormously helpful.

My initial thought about Humanity, given the time period, is that it equates to reason. Trafficking in electro-demons brings with it an acceptance of a reality antithetical to the scientific world-view of the time. At zero humanity, a character cannot think critically and is entirely lost to science, embracing all manner of fanaticism and superstition, perhaps even madness.

This might not work, given that the demons are an outgrowth of scientific inquiry and could be seen as simply a new discovery rather than something unnatural and evil. Unless they were *obviously* unnatural and evil in some way...I'm open to suggestions! I recognize that the right definition of Humanity is key, so let me know what you think.

I like that Humanity definition. By that note, we also know that demons are anti-intellectual. Which doesn't make their "scientific" origins a problem, it just means that this is one of those sciences "man was not meant to know". Science opening a door to something else, as it were. Some random thoughts:

Demons lie, constantly. They lie about the nature of reality, but also about other things. Being a demon means embracing falsehood, because falsehood is the nemesis of reason.

Demons, when they are viewed by humans, seem conjoined to common symbols of religion and myth, suggesting science-trumping truths about reality. They might have animal heads or angel wings, for example, or seem so. Or perhaps their electrical cycles conform with Kabbalah-based numerology. Whatever to suggest connections where there is none.

The relationship between the methods utilized by sorcerers and the nature of demons is coincidental; it just so happens that these particular scientifically inspired methods enable one to contact planes of intellectual suppression. Opening the gates of heaven through science.

If reason is Humanity, then non-European cultures and feminity are both anti-Humanity to a degree.

Eero Tuovinen wrote: If reason is Humanity, then non-European cultures and feminity are both anti-Humanity to a degree.

Hi Jason,

I urge you to check out Electric Ghosts, one of the first Sorcerer mini-supplements. It's very, very close to what you're describing and extremely well-conceived.

Best,
Ron

Hey Jason,

Its an interesting concept, and if you haven't read Greg Keyes' "Newton's Cannon" and the rest of the "Age of Unreason". I've only read the first book, but I think its very close to what you have in mind for the feel of the game. In a more historical sense, there's Neil Stephenson's Quicksilver and Confusion which has a slightly earlier feel but try and capture the feel of academic and scientific inquiry.

That said, I think Humanity is the central question in any game and it sounds like you're off to a good start. But do the electrical demons have to actually be electrical, or can they be electrical like? Some sort of aethyr demons or some quasi-scientific source - in that your game is more speculative in nature than scientific - this gives you a lot more leeway in tweaking things.

I think reason vs madness is an interesting tension in the game, and I would work around that - what if in the field of science some things couldn't be explained, couldn't be articulated and were beyond our knowledge? Looking too deep, and probing into "ye olde things man was not meant to know?". Here, I'm thinking of the movie "Pi" for example, where one man's search into numbers takes a mystical turn.

So what happens at Humanity = 0? In your setting, what causes a humanity gain or loss roll?

As for Demons, they can have other than electrical powers, what about magnetism and its powers? The Age of Reason demons can communicate and interact via all kinds of devices - a sort of telegraph device where it eerily taps away, moves lodes stones about on a calculus table, causes a series of blinking signals in a strange contraption... Here I'm thinking of inexplicable phenomenon - perhaps they way in which the Scientists summons and binds the entity would determine what form it takes. One demon could be inconspicuous and communicates by slowly moving a magnet about a ouija-like board, another speaks through a human cadaver tied up to a large electrical contraption, another has posssessed a person from an insane asylum who was administered aetherial shock treatments, while a last one is a lamp hooked up to a battery device which flashes its signal, while the last resides as an arc of electricity suspended in conducing rods running through flasks of different materials.

Anyhow, do continue sharing your ideas, I'd love to hear things that trigger humanity and I'd love to see your descriptors for the setting.

--
Garett

Thanks for the pointers and ideas! I checked out the "ghosts" thread on the Sorcerer site.

I've not read Keyes, or Stephenson's Quicksilver books, but I am devouring Tim Powers' DECLARE currently and that must be shaping my ideas.

I'm thinking the opposite of reason is irrationality, so Humanity can be lost in the normal way, through conflict with a demon's Power when binding, &c. Demons do not behave predictably and there's a certain ecstatic component to interacting with them - maybe they suffuse their manifestations with religious symbolism. Surrendering to this lowers Humanity/reason. This is my initial direction.

Being powerfully guided by faith or superstition should call for a roll, and since irrationality can be tied to madness, excessive actions like brutal killing might call for a roll as well.

--Jason

The only thing I'd like to add is a suggestion that you might want to talk with your players ahead of time about the look and feel of Demons and Sorcery. An electricity demon could look like a lot of things, and if you don't want 10-foot tall glowing ball-lightning with eyes, better to say so before your player falls in love with that as a concept.

jasonm wrote: Thanks for the pointers and ideas! I checked out the "ghosts" thread on the Sorcerer site.

I've not read Keyes, or Stephenson's Quicksilver books, but I am devouring Tim Powers' DECLARE currently and that must be shaping my ideas.

Danny, that's an excellent sugestion. I'll definitely want to run this by my players and reach some kind of consensus on demonic parameters.

Garett, I'm on page 382 and enjoying the hell out of Declare, and I've read The Anubis Gates as well.

I like your idea about using scientific hubris as Humanity but can't get my mind around how that would be implemented in play.

--Jason

jasonm wrote:
I like your idea about using scientific hubris as Humanity but can't get my mind around how that would be implemented in play.

Since Sorcerer is new to me and this mode of play will be largely new to some of my players, I think a great deal of subtlety is right out. If I can describe a clear progression from A to B, that will be good. I'm thinking that if "Reason - Irrationality" is too complex a transition, they can map it to "Sanity - Lunacy" without much trouble.

I am concerned, because everyone stresses that Humanity is key, and I don't want to muck it up.

Hope you don't mind me weighing in here again...

Eero has put the point quite well... After all, rationality is very problematic and usually ethnocentric - we are rational, they are not... When in truth most knowledge systems are perfectly rational if you adopt the premises that the system is built upon. So to avoid that, you could just use Rationality as the basis for which Humanity is to be explored:

As such, one premise would be this:

Will you use your knowledge for all or for your own ambitious gain?

Humanity = Compassion

This would follow the debate: is knowledge objective and cold or can we use knowledge to help others. A person with a low humanity is one who is divorced from others and is coldly analytical: we're talking Swift's "A Modest Proposal" or proponents of eugenics or systematic genocide.

Case in point: Busy, packed cities. Women seen as inferior. Lower classes have revolutionary dispositions. Current theories and classifications suggest that some people have a biological basis for criminal behavior and subhuman intelligence. Women seen as weak and hysterical and lacking in reason. A refined and distinguished gentleman is not led by emotions or compassion, but cold, clinical, and distant behavior. The body is to be regulated, we're talking sexually repressed male characters who regularly give themselves enemas to ensure their body is working.

Add to this Victorian mixture Demons, and we've got Gentlemen's Clubs and Scientific Societies which are intimately tied in to the existing power structure and utterly insensitive or at the best, condescending, to those less well off. Personal ambitions and pettiness are expressed in journals and articles and even the occasional duel.

Humanity Gain rolls are expressed when one does compassionate things with their knowledge.

Humanity Loss rolls are expressed when one acts in an uncompassionate manner. The demons are there to drive the story:

A Demon needs a new body every couple of days as its uses the bodies electrical system which degrades down as the body decays, and thus the scientist-sorcerer goes to the morgue and buys a body - from grave robbers, from ruthless morticians? But whose bodies are being bought? The poor and indigent? What happens when a pair of orphans see their reanimated dad walking down the street?

Experiments and rituals with electrical currents may require sacrifices: think here of animal vivisection or the horrific electrocution of an elephant at Coney Island for the crowd's amusement.

The use of Demons to put down a riot against the monarch, despite the riot being the result of cruelty and carelessness by the authorities towards hungry and starving children.

An electrical demon corners a young thief in the corner of a lab... What will the sorcerer do with this desperate and poor immigrant thief trapped in the house?

Not all rolls have to be related to the demon - in compassion, this can be broaded to the Sorcerer's own family. His younger son is taken on as an apprentice, yet the younger daughter who wants badly to do the same is supposed to go to a finishing school. What does the Sorcerer do?

The Sorcerer's wife is seen beating a maid who made an error, or the Sorcerer himself is having an affair with the maid and asks for money, maybe she is so desperate she threatens to blackmail the Sorcerer.

A rival Sorcerer has gotten himself into trouble and as a coach is passing by terrible flashes appear in the rival's lab and windows burst out - will the Sorcerer show compassion towards his hated rival?

The Sorcerer passes by an ex-apprentice thrown out for stealing the Sorcerer's secrets. The ex-apprentice is sick and begging for cash from strangers and has not yet his old master.

The monarch has a conference with the Sorcerer wondering if the Sorcerer would be willing to take on a contract and see if the Demons can be used to publicly execute condemned men with the electrical demons as a display of the sovereign's power. The condemned men are often petty thieves and poachers and people who never had much luck.

Those are some examples of exploring the theme of compassion in a seeming age of promise and science - things will get better - but only for the wealthy and the elites.

Another approach would be to use Eero's example of Obsession in science, which sets up a neat dichotomy: science is supposed to be objective and analytical but can be infused with enthusiasm and obsession. In this case, Humanity = Temperance. Here the demands of the scientific fields and the Demons place great demands on the Scientist-Sorcerer and prevent them from having full lives... Gain rolls when they cope and deal with problems in life WITHOUT having to resort to their demons or Lore, while over-reliance on these will cause humanity loss rolls.

We can imagine the bangs for this: awarded an Imperial grant for research distant from the family, an overworked apprentice who wants to go home for the holidays, a family whose wealth is being spent on lab goods and not an education for the children, the testing of science and demonic powers on oneself or family.

Well, sorry about that, whatever I wanted to say, I couldn't seem to be very clear or brief about it. But I was just trying to illustrate how I suspect certain themes involving humanity can be explored. Remember, you want to use Humanity constantly and construct "Bangs" for players around that. You want to constantly imperil and challenge their humanity to drive the game, after all, these are people living on the edge.

Having said all that, Jason, Humanity = Sanity is a perfectly reasonable and very sensible definition of Humanity. A classic, in fact.

What kind of Bangs do you think you would do to test Humanity?

What would they do to gain Sanity in your setting, and how would they risk it?

Would you be willing to show us a one-sheet write up of the setting?

I hope you get something out of that blathering!

Oh... Concerning Electric Ghosts: I've never seen any reviews or actually much detail on it... Could someone (perhaps Raven) provide us with a bit more detail on it? I've been interested in it for a while now, but would like a little bit more information!

Oh... Concerning Anubis Gates: the reason I recommended that is because of the wierd surgery angle in the book - which could be used as a means of exploring the cruel edge of science. Also the wierd magical grounding thing using chains could be something to consider, since you're using magical electrical demons of a sort.

----
Garett

Garret, thanks again for your thoughtful reply. There's a lot there to assimilate!

I read about Electric Ghosts here.

I have read the rest of Keyes' Age of Unreason, and highly recommend finishing it to those who have only read the first book.

Watch From Beyond (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091083/) for a bit of mad science gone awry and some ideas about fitting demonic beings into the equation. I'll avoid mentioning Howard the Duck, because frankly, that's just wacky.

Also, a slightly more oblique reference is Studio Foglio's comic Girl Genius (http://www.studiofoglio.com/girlgenius.html), which depicts a world in which the Mad in Mad Science is caused by "the Spark", a phenomenon which may appear at any time in a scientist's career, granting them almost supernatural scientific genius, while simultaneously driving them slowly insane.