Topic: [TSOY] 2 parter re: pool refreshes
Started by: Darcy Burgess
Started on: 6/20/2005
Board: CRN Games
On 6/20/2005 at 2:22pm, Darcy Burgess wrote:
[TSOY] 2 parter re: pool refreshes
part the first, aka the "general question":
Aren't the pool refresh rules a "gimme"? Since the only requirement is to narrate something, then the only obstacle to overcome is the GM allowing the characters the time to engage in the narrated activities?
part the second, aka the "question about what I'm trying to do with TSOY"
I'm working on adapting TSOY (or at least lifting huge bleeding chunks of it) to run MegaTrav. So far I've ditched the Secrets, since I don't see them fitting terribly well in a scifi universe. I'm planning on amping up weapons and armour to compensate (also allowing a greater emphasis on technology, which I think is in keeping with MT).
Regarding pool refreshes, drunken orgies and hunting bucks are all well and good for Near, but:
What would be a more appropriate mechanic for a setting like the shattered imperium?"
I'd really like to find a way to do it that doesn't feel so much like a "here ya go. I've decided you can refresh your pools" -- something that ties into the active conflict a little more.
Suggestions?
On 6/20/2005 at 6:15pm, Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
RE: [TSOY] 2 parter re: pool refreshes
When I was recently trying to sell a member of my RPG group on playing a game, another member said, "Clinton sucks at selling games. He's great at running them, though."
So, I'm going to do something probably horribly inappropriate and say TSOY is not the right game for what you want to run.
Yes, pool refreshes depend on narration. Your sentence:
Since the only requirement is to narrate something, then the only obstacle to overcome is the GM allowing the characters the time to engage in the narrated activities?
"Allowing" is where you get it wrong. The text of TSOY tries to be explicit: it's not up to the GM. The GM's power is very limited and is there only to guide scenes and help tie a story together. Pool refreshment is a direct reward for players narrating something in the theme of TSOY stories.
On 6/20/2005 at 7:40pm, Darcy Burgess wrote:
RE: [TSOY] 2 parter re: pool refreshes
so, my response is why is TSOY inappropriate? simply because I want to retool the pool mechanics?
or is it a larger issue -- do you really think that the mechanics are that married to Near that they can't be ported to other settings? I still want a system that does conres in a (basically) narrativist environment, while still allowing the GM to present the plot (aka, work up a module based around a set of key scenes and NPCs).
I'm befuddled.
On 6/20/2005 at 7:51pm, Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
RE: [TSOY] 2 parter re: pool refreshes
Eggo von Eggo wrote: so, my response is why is TSOY inappropriate? simply because I want to retool the pool mechanics?
Well, yes. They are an absolutely fundamental part of the game. It'd be like My Life with Master if you could disobey the Master at any time, or Sorcerer if there was no way to bind demons, or Gamma World if you could pick your mutations. (I know some of you did that last one. Bad!)
or is it a larger issue -- do you really think that the mechanics are that married to Near that they can't be ported to other settings? I still want a system that does conres in a (basically) narrativist environment, while still allowing the GM to present the plot (aka, work up a module based around a set of key scenes and NPCs).
Honestly, I'm not sure how to say this without coming off as a prick. The game you want to play is not TSOY. "GM presenting the plot" does not work in TSOY at all. The mechanics aren't tied to Near, but they are tied to one type of story - sweaty adventure. MegaTraveller - and specifically, how you described your game - is reasonable science-fiction, with much more focus on technology and gear than people. I mean, it's cool. If I lived in your neighborhood and you said, "Hey, we're playing this," I might play it. It just really isn't made for the TSOY system.
You know what I would look at? Look at Chad Underkoffler's Dead Inside, or specifically, his PDQ system. (Hey, it's free right here!) It's got the system feel I think you might be going for without being heavily wedded to any particular type of story.
On 6/20/2005 at 9:26pm, Darcy Burgess wrote:
RE: [TSOY] 2 parter re: pool refreshes
Thanks for the link to PDQ -- it's downloading as I'm typing. I will check it out later this eve.
Regarding your concerns over coming off like a prick, you won't ruffle my feathers. I appreciate your candour. I hope you'll take my queries in the same vein.
Now, I'd like to return to the discussion at hand, and specifically three things:
1) I don't see MT as being a techno-fetishistic game (aka "shopping game") where players are always trying to gear up. My allusion to amping up weapons and armour was merely referencing the fact that +1 to +3 could be a little restrictive when dealing with ultra-high tech stuff. I'm not sure of that, but at least I'm looking at it with eyes open.
2) Of all of the mechanics in TSOY that I see as being "absolutely fundamental", I'd be much more likely to list keys and/or BDTP than pool refreshes. Perhaps it's because I haven't been able to sit in on a game and experienced how you run it -- but to me, these scenes that the pool refresh derives from are spurious -- potentially cool, but a sideline to the story. They seem to be colour, and perhaps establish the world, but serve little purpose other than generating new pool points.
The closest analogy that I can draw would be if it were a supers game -- and superman were one of the PCs. How many times would we need to have the "I slip into a phone booth to transform from Clark Kent into Superman" scene narrated (or iterations thereof) before it became: a) tedious and b) obvious that it serves no other purpose than to allow Superman to use his powers.
Perhaps the real issue here is that at its core, the mechanic as presented is merely a "kewl way" to let the players say "yep. pool's back". If that's the case, why bother with a mechanic at all? At it's core, what the mechanic really means is "refresh your pools during downtime, but come up with a good story about how it happens". (As an aside, I have no particular issue with this, it's a workable mechanic, I'm merely pointing out what I interpret it to do within the context of a gaming session.)
3) If "GM Presenting the plot" doesn't work in TSOY "at all", then how do you explain 'Rat Moon Rising'? Agreed, there aren't any keyed wilderness maps or stock descriptions (aka, old skool D&D module style), but at the end of the day, with the setup presented, the GM will still be an active part in driving the plot. To say otherwise would merely be relegating the (major) NPCs to the role of being railroaded by the PCs -- a reversal of the situation. Obviously, a healthy group will work together so long as they know what sort of game they're playing -- achieving a balance between Player-mandated and GM-mandated events/scenes/drama/whatever.
??
On 6/20/2005 at 10:05pm, Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
RE: [TSOY] 2 parter re: pool refreshes
Eggo von Eggo wrote: Thanks for the link to PDQ -- it's downloading as I'm typing. I will check it out later this eve.
Cool! I re-read it earlier, and it has a lot of similiarities to TSOY in pure mechanics.
1) I don't see MT as being a techno-fetishistic game (aka "shopping game") where players are always trying to gear up. My allusion to amping up weapons and armour was merely referencing the fact that +1 to +3 could be a little restrictive when dealing with ultra-high tech stuff. I'm not sure of that, but at least I'm looking at it with eyes open.
I'll grant that you have better knowledge of the game. Otherwise, I dunno.
2) Of all of the mechanics in TSOY that I see as being "absolutely fundamental", I'd be much more likely to list keys and/or BDTP than pool refreshes. Perhaps it's because I haven't been able to sit in on a game and experienced how you run it -- but to me, these scenes that the pool refresh derives from are spurious -- potentially cool, but a sideline to the story. They seem to be colour, and perhaps establish the world, but serve little purpose other than generating new pool points.
I'd say Keys, then Gift of Dice, then Pool Refreshment. (BDTP is a minor side note. Neat, but not the real game.)
Stories need breathers, little places where you can sit back and watch the character doing something unnecessary but fun. Here's an example: in "Rogues in the House," Conan and another guy are going to go kill this evil priest. (And then they find a monkey! But, anyway...) Before they do so, though, Conan goes to visit his ex-girlfriend who got him thrown in jail. As she's all "Honey, I didn't know..." he picks her up and throws her off a second-story balcony into the sludge pit (full of poop) below.
So unnecessary. So incredibly great to see Conan in all his foolish glory.
So, that's the first reason for pool refreshment. The other is that these breathers will turn into catalysts. Note that most of them involve other people. You've got to get NPCs engaged to really refresh your pools. I think I see the confusion as I type that. Compare this to Vampire for a sec. In Vampire, you've got to drink blood to "refresh your pool." In every game I've played, that never really happens. You never actually play out a hunt - you might just say "my character goes hunting for the evening."
In TSOY, the Story Guide - and this is his job - can't let the players get away with that. You have to engage NPCs to refresh, which will probably enhance the story.
3) If "GM Presenting the plot" doesn't work in TSOY "at all", then how do you explain 'Rat Moon Rising'? Agreed, there aren't any keyed wilderness maps or stock descriptions (aka, old skool D&D module style), but at the end of the day, with the setup presented, the GM will still be an active part in driving the plot. To say otherwise would merely be relegating the (major) NPCs to the role of being railroaded by the PCs -- a reversal of the situation. Obviously, a healthy group will work together so long as they know what sort of game they're playing -- achieving a balance between Player-mandated and GM-mandated events/scenes/drama/whatever.
Well, "Rat Moon Rising" is an aberration. It's meant just to get you started. But even in that, no PC is restricted from doing anything, and the NPCs should be used to react by the Story Guide. Player characters in TSOY should be the protagonists of the story. Everyone else is dressing - they aren't equal.
On 6/20/2005 at 11:09pm, Darcy Burgess wrote:
RE: [TSOY] 2 parter re: pool refreshes
wow. we're burning up the bandwidth here -- but I think we're getting somewher (at least I know I am...)
i apologizer for even worse typing/ghrammar, but my 11month old is curenty on my lap playing "no daddy, type this!"
re: intimate knowledge of MT. I'm not "the Megatraveller guru": by any stretch of the imagination. What I should have said was, my version of Megatraveller isn't a shopping game. In fact, I'm pretty much lifting the setting, which I've always liked.
In TSOY, the Story Guide - and this is his job - can't let the players get away with that. You have to engage NPCs to refresh, which will probably enhance the story.
That is exceptionally enlightening. I'd also argue that to support your statement that pool refreshment is critical as all that, that very sentence (or a variation) was a critical omission in the text of TSOY. Check that section out again. As presented, it (to me) really comes off like the player can just make up some dumbass reason to get their points back. If engaging NPCs is part of the deal, then I'd also argue that some of the examples you present (reading a book, f'rex) are misleading.
If I'm reading you correctly, GMs should use Pool Refreshment as a new opportunity to develop plot hooks. That should also be articulated. This is big time critical info.
(sidenote: nice Conan reference. you're right that the pools also serve a pacing purpose -- so the question arises, can the GM disallow pool refreshment if he wishes to keep the pace frenetic?)
Regarding RMR, I think you're undervaluing it by calling it an aberration. It's a wicked cool setup, and as actual play has demonstrated, it has spawned some great results. Calling it something "to get you started" is downplaying a whole style of play that (IMHO) TSOY supports.
Regarding the "restriction" of PCs, in no way do I see GM-aided plot development automatically being restrictive of PC protagonism, assuming that all players have an equal voice at the table (which ultimately they do, if only through the right of abstention). Or at least, GM-aided plot development is no more restrictive to Player A than Player B's actions.
And you notion that NPCs are "just dressing" is disturbing to say the least -- if that's the case, then the GM really is just the players' bitch, and probably won't have much incentive to bother showing up (unless he likes being a dice rolling machine that's forced to wear about 6000 different hats, come up with cool names nonstop, and still do a metric buttload of prep before every session -- those NPCs don't stat themselves).
On 6/21/2005 at 5:24am, Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
RE: [TSOY] 2 parter re: pool refreshes
Eggo von Eggo wrote:In TSOY, the Story Guide - and this is his job - can't let the players get away with that. You have to engage NPCs to refresh, which will probably enhance the story.
That is exceptionally enlightening. I'd also argue that to support your statement that pool refreshment is critical as all that, that very sentence (or a variation) was a critical omission in the text of TSOY. Check that section out again. As presented, it (to me) really comes off like the player can just make up some dumbass reason to get their points back. If engaging NPCs is part of the deal, then I'd also argue that some of the examples you present (reading a book, f'rex) are misleading.
You're right here. I could clarify this quite a bit when revising the game.
(sidenote: nice Conan reference. you're right that the pools also serve a pacing purpose -- so the question arises, can the GM disallow pool refreshment if he wishes to keep the pace frenetic?)
Most certainly.
Regarding the "restriction" of PCs, in no way do I see GM-aided plot development automatically being restrictive of PC protagonism, assuming that all players have an equal voice at the table (which ultimately they do, if only through the right of abstention). Or at least, GM-aided plot development is no more restrictive to Player A than Player B's actions.
And you notion that NPCs are "just dressing" is disturbing to say the least -- if that's the case, then the GM really is just the players' bitch, and probably won't have much incentive to bother showing up (unless he likes being a dice rolling machine that's forced to wear about 6000 different hats, come up with cool names nonstop, and still do a metric buttload of prep before every session -- those NPCs don't stat themselves).
You clarified this better than I ever could have. The GM isn't completely tied down, but should have no more power to affect the story than any other player.
On 6/21/2005 at 2:21pm, Darcy Burgess wrote:
RE: [TSOY] 2 parter re: pool refreshes
Quote:
(sidenote: nice Conan reference. you're right that the pools also serve a pacing purpose -- so the question arises, can the GM disallow pool refreshment if he wishes to keep the pace frenetic?)
Most certainly.
Cool. That raises other questions regarding GM power -- is it strictly reactionary ("no, you can't do that"), or is it proactive ("this is what happens")? Does it only apply to the NPCs, or is it something that transcends the in-play structure, to other meta-issues?
Or, is this something that the text leaves open to each group to figure out for themselves? If this is the case, what was your intention, or phrased differently, how do you do it?
After reading your last message, I get the distinct impression that we were (more or less) envisioning things unspooling during a game in much the same way -- our positions aren't as far apart as they originally appeared. I think that the initial divide was one based on semantics, not theory.
That being said, the play structure that TSOY supports didn't come truly clear to me until I "saw" it in comparison to a more stripped-down system (PDQ). I can now see what you mean about the importance of Gift Dice and Pool Refreshes, if only by their absence from PDQ -- they would have a huge impact on player power and proactivity.
However, I still don't see how TSOY lends itself any better to "sweaty" fantasy as opposed to any other style of fantasy (I'm using a broad definition of fantasy, meaning "something fantastic" as opposed to "orks and trolls and elfs, oh my!"), so long as the setting supports a williing supsension of disbelief in order to achieve narrativist goals.
??
On 6/21/2005 at 2:33pm, Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
RE: [TSOY] 2 parter re: pool refreshes
Eggo von Eggo wrote:Quote:
(sidenote: nice Conan reference. you're right that the pools also serve a pacing purpose -- so the question arises, can the GM disallow pool refreshment if he wishes to keep the pace frenetic?)
Most certainly.
Cool. That raises other questions regarding GM power -- is it strictly reactionary ("no, you can't do that"), or is it proactive ("this is what happens")? Does it only apply to the NPCs, or is it something that transcends the in-play structure, to other meta-issues?
Or, is this something that the text leaves open to each group to figure out for themselves? If this is the case, what was your intention, or phrased differently, how do you do it?
It is something I purposefully left for each group to figure out, as each group has different social dynamics.
How I'd ideally do it myself: well, TSOY definitely supports a very story-like structure. The protagonists are the primary motivators in the story. There will be non-protagonists doing things that the protagonists must react to, but they are there for the sole purpose of the protagonists' action.
In this framework, the GM has a lot to do: play NPCs, cause events to transpire, thwart the PCs. His or her power is limited, though, to causing stuff to happen specifically to highlight the PCs and guide them through a story tailored for their strengths. This is where Keys really come in: the story should revolve around those Keys completely.
A big part of where I show GM limits is actually in the resolution section. Note that bringing arbitrary difficulty to a task by the GM is near impossible. Between the strong limits on how hard the GM can make actions, and the block against Bringing Down the Pain being started by the GM, his or her power is greatly restricted as compared to many RPGs.
However, I still don't see how TSOY lends itself any better to "sweaty" fantasy as opposed to any other style of fantasy (I'm using a broad definition of fantasy, meaning "something fantastic" as opposed to "orks and trolls and elfs, oh my!"), so long as the setting supports a williing supsension of disbelief in order to achieve narrativist goals.
Maybe so. You'd have to change the pool refreshes so that they were triggered by events common to the genre in question and so that they were motivators to engage NPCs.
On 6/21/2005 at 4:34pm, Darcy Burgess wrote:
RE: [TSOY] 2 parter re: pool refreshes
regarding GM power, that's what I figured your intentions were. good to know, though.
A big part of where I show GM limits is actually in the resolution section. Note that bringing arbitrary difficulty to a task by the GM is near impossible. Between the strong limits on how hard the GM can make actions, and the block against Bringing Down the Pain being started by the GM, his or her power is greatly restricted as compared to many RPGs.
I'd noticed that there wasn't a large scale of "difficulties" in the game, but I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of limiting the GM's power. That's really enlightening.
However, I still don't see how TSOY lends itself any better to "sweaty" fantasy as opposed to any other style of fantasy (I'm using a broad definition of fantasy, meaning "something fantastic" as opposed to "orks and trolls and elfs, oh my!"), so long as the setting supports a williing supsension of disbelief in order to achieve narrativist goals.
Maybe so. You'd have to change the pool refreshes so that they were triggered by events common to the genre in question and so that they were motivators to engage NPCs.
That's too damn funny. that's the sort of thing I was thinking about when I posted:
Regarding pool refreshes, drunken orgies and hunting bucks are all well and good for Near, but:
What would be a more appropriate mechanic for a setting like the shattered imperium?"
Wow. nothing like coming full circle. If/when you and yours come up my way (Ottawa, Canada), you should definitely drop a line. It would be awesome to game with you.