Topic: Copyright - movie frames
Started by: PrzeSzkoda
Started on: 7/4/2005
Board: Publishing
On 7/4/2005 at 6:57pm, PrzeSzkoda wrote:
Copyright - movie frames
Although I've been lurking around The Forge for some time now, I never made my presence apparent to other users - so I guess it's time to say 'Hi'.
Hi.
Now to the point.
I am planning to write (surprise, surprise) an RPG and publish it in a .pdf format, so I decided that it'd be best to have everything planned beforehand. I will gladly discuss the game concept I'm going to develop with fellow Forgers, but first I'd like to know what is the copyright status of single movie frames - does it depend on the legal status of the movie itself, or is it the same for every one? Can I use several frames from a given movie in a product without raising any copyright issues? Or do I need the permission of the copyright holders of the movie?
The movie I'm thinking about is Pier Paolo Passolini's "Salò o le 120 giornate di Sodoma" and as far as I remember it is a part of the Pasolini Estate, currently in possesion of his descendants.
Thanks in advance,
PSz
On 7/4/2005 at 7:59pm, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
RE: Copyright - movie frames
If you want to know if the given movie is currently under copyright, you need to give the country of production, the original rightsholder and the year of publishing. Also the death year of the author, if made by a human. Then we might be able to answer that. If I remember the movie you're talking about, it'll still be under copyright for a while.
As for movie stills generally, they of course are just as protected as the movie itself. The reason you some times see movie stills without attribution is that they're used through fair use rights. Which is pretty much impossible to do, if your reason to use them in the first place is to use them as illustrations.
So, assuming that the movie is still under copyright, you can't use still frames from it without permission. The "can't" in this sentence means that it's illegal, not that it'll be prosecuted. It's not a good idea to try your luck, though.
--
However, all is not lost. It might surprise some, but some times you can get a permission to use something just by asking. For certain properties a new product is free publicity that doesn't diminish it's value, and some people like to allow this kind of thing on principle. So you should ask nicely if you can use stuff from the movie, and you might get a permission. I don't need to tell you that you should be courteous, and give a complete and realistic picture about your product when approaching the rights-holder. Promise to send them a complementary copy, too.
I don't know the Italian culture enough to guess if that works in this case, though.
On 7/4/2005 at 9:14pm, PrzeSzkoda wrote:
RE: Copyright - movie frames
Thanks for the swift reply.
Yes, it'd seem that it's just as I was afraid it would be - "Salo" is still under copyright. It's author was killed in 1975 (the movie was published the very same year). And he was the original rightsholder, too.
Sure, I'll try asking the rights-holder(s) if I'll get a chance. I just can't find any specific contact information (I might try asking around national movie boards, especially the Italian one).
Reproducing stills in a drawn form wouldn't violate any laws, would it? Maybe instead of using actual frames from the movie I could illustrate the book with drawings based on the stills. But this would probably cost as much as acquiring some original art... Fortunately, I've got all the time in the world to think it over.
I'm also considering using reproductions of paintings as illustrations - and the ones I'm thinking of using surely are not under copyright anymore (I'll double-check it, though).
On 7/4/2005 at 9:56pm, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
RE: Copyright - movie frames
PrzeSzkoda wrote:
Reproducing stills in a drawn form wouldn't violate any laws, would it? Maybe instead of using actual frames from the movie I could illustrate the book with drawings based on the stills. But this would probably cost as much as acquiring some original art... Fortunately, I've got all the time in the world to think it over.
Drawings could be all right, or not, depending on how special the composition of the said frames was. I'd say that if your market segment would recognize the movie from the frames, then whatever it is that you took from the movie for the drawing would still be protected by copyright. This is based on the concept of derivative work - if you base a new work of art on an old one, the owner of the old one has rights over the new one. Specifically, he can deny rights of publication.
However, ideas are not copyrighted. That's why you could have a drawing of guys fighting with light sabers, as long as nothing explicitly communicated that it's a particular fight from the Star Wars series. Similarly, a scene of debauchery might or might not be ok, depending on whether there's some particular detail in the depiction that you're copying, or just the general idea.
Of course, the farther you go from the originals, the less likely a law suit is, and the more likely you're going to win. Of course, stupidity occurs, like that Da Vinci Code trial where the complaining party has no chance in hell of winning.
I'm also considering using reproductions of paintings as illustrations - and the ones I'm thinking of using surely are not under copyright anymore (I'll double-check it, though).
You can generally assume that anything from before the twenties is public domain. If your stuff is all from the nineteenth century, for example, there's even no need to check. Younger than that, there's some tricky copyright law to navigate, and the exact cut-off points depend on the country of production, the country where you're publishing, the year of author's death and whether the copyright's been reneved. So it's a bit elaborate, and there's all kinds of weirdness there. I hear Mickey Mouse is already public domain in Canada, for example.
On 7/5/2005 at 2:53am, c wrote:
RE: Copyright - movie frames
If you plan to use something copyrighted as inspiration you may want to talk to a lawyer. One of the problems presented with using things that are copyrighted is that even for uses that are covered under the fair use clause in our court system you have to prove your use is "fair". This can cost 250000 to 500000 dollars (according to Lawrence Lessig's book free culture) to get the sort of legal experience you would need to defend yourself from something like a movie studio.
I'm not a lawyer, but my advice would be, that unless you can negotiate permission, which is likely a difficult task, find yourself an illustrator and get something nice and custom made that you own the rights to rather than trying to puzzle out a thorny realm like copyright law.
On 7/5/2005 at 1:49pm, PrzeSzkoda wrote:
RE: Copyright - movie frames
Sure, I'll consult a lawyer (or maybe even two, one specializing in local law and the other in its international or EU variant). It might be that, due to discrepancies between legal systems, I could use certain images/stills/whatever in my country or in the EU as illustrations or promotional material, but wouldn't be allowed to do the same thing internationally.
Still, if I had an opportunity to use such materials legally, I'd only decide to do it if it was less expensive than getting original illustrations. Otherwise, I'd have to resign (no matter how neat it would look in the finished product).