My experience at Origins this year also led this observation: We must find a way to accept credit cards at the Forge booth this year.

Must.

To do this, we'll need an internet connection at the booth and a computer.

Internet Connection Solution 1: I have a Mac Powerbook 12". If any Forgies know a cheap way to get a CDMA 1x wireless networking card to work with a Mac, we are good for internet access. Alternately, if any Forgies have a laptop with a CDMA 1x wireless networking card and would be willing to let us use it as our credit card machine, contact me immediately.

Wireless services range from $20 to $50 a month. And many places offer monthly deals for small business, rather than signing a year contract.

Internet Connection Solution 2: If we can't develop a wireless solution, then we can purchase an ethernet connection from the Exhibitor's hall. The connection costs $450 for four days. (that's $25 each)

Payment Solution: I recommend we use Paypal. They offer two services now, pay with your paypal account (of course) and pay via credit card. Paypal simply acts as the processing agent for the transaction. They charge ¢30 + 2% for each transaction.

The Whole Model (so to speak): I'm imagining that we have a laptop set to a home page that displays links to all of our paypal accounts. If a customer wants to pay with PP, we let them log in and pay. Julie or Ralph or whomever's at the register checks the confirmation screen (preferably even takes a screen shot of it) and then hands over the merchandise. This is the easiest option since the money goes straight to individual accounts. If they customer is buying two or three items, it's feasible that we can direct them to multiple accounts for payment. If they don't want to do that, we can just process the order as a credit card. See below!

If a customer does not have a PP account, then we direct them to a FORGE order page that has a shopping cart installed. They check off what they've grabbed at the booth, Julie and/or Ralph check it, and then we let Paypal process the credit card. Payment ends up in a "master" Paypal account. CC purchases like this will then be paid out at the end of GenCon, either by check or cash on hand if there's enough of it.

The drawback to this arrangement is our communal nature. There's no one central company, someone's got to step up and take charge of the CC payments. I'll do it, if you all are comfortable with it. I think BW might have enough cash flow to make most of the payments at the con, so you folks can go home with cash in your pocket.

What I need from you: Head nodding. "Ok, I'm in." Or something like that.

Wireless solutions. The conventions fees are usurious. If we can come up with a wireless solution, this is just going to work better all around.

Paypal account payment pages all set up and ready to accept payment. Try to make it as simple as possible.

-Luke

Luke,

I don't have the use of a laptop, but I am more than willing to pony up extra money for the internet access if needs be and put together some web pages for all the folks at the booth and whatnot.

Oh and you don't have to have a PayPal account to use PayPal to purchase from someone. Just a credit card and email address.

Keith

Is a CDMA modem just a standard laptop wireless modem? Or is it a special kind of wireless modem?

I'm in. It would be nice if we didn't have to pay for the connection, but if we have to, it's not that much.

But if we're going to use Paypal, then we might need to have 2 cashiers working at a time. Entering all the info into Paypal is going to take alot longer than a standard credit card swipe at the corner Target or grocery store or whatever. We might want one person to handle credit card sales and one person to handle cash sales.

Luke,

I know we lost sales last year at the booth because we didn't have the ability to accept credit card payments. And you are right, the big stumbling block is that as a collective of game designers there is no central account for distributing credit card monies. The laptop option you describe does seem viable, but I do need to raise an issue that bothers me about such a set-up. As a potential buyer, I would have serious problems logging into my paypal account on a stranger's computer across an unknown network.

I'm really trying not to be a luddite about this. Does anyone have any experience with accepting payment the way Luke describes? What can we do to assure buyers that we are not collecting there paypal logins and passwords?

Julie

Julie,

I dig your concern, but it really isn't any different than the risk you take at a restaurant when a waiter walks off with your credit card for a few minutes. Some people will feel uncomfortable with it and opt out. I think most won't think twice about it.

My company does a really big convention every year and used to do something similar when taking credit card payments at our convention store (now we have the swipers). For the most part, folks were fine with it.

Keith

Well, first off, paypal is the most secure web credit card agent. far more so than 2checkout.

Also, the SAFARI browser for Mac OS 10.4 (what my laptop is currently running) has a RESET option. Doing so "erases your browsing history, empties the cache, clears the downloads window, and removes cookies. It also removes any saved names and passwords or other autofill text and clears Google search entries."

So we could reset my browser after each customer. And we can assure everyone that we have neither the time, inclination nor technical know-how to install key-capture software for stealing passwords. Besides, such an endeavor is bootless. We're all legitimate private merchants who would be tracked down and hounded by the credit card companies (who are very good about pursuing claims these days).

Key20 used this system at Origins and no one complained or balked.



Tim, I agree that two operators would be great. And what I need is a wireless modem, a service that supports it, and hack software that'll allow the Mac to operate it. See, as far as I can tell, none of the wireless modem manufacturers write software for the Mac. I've searched high and low. But if anyone has a lead, I'd love to hear it.

Oh! Another option would be to use a TREO 600/650 with a small business data transfer plan (about $20 a month). We can bluetooth an internet connection into the TREO and use that as a modem. Jason Valore used this method and it seemed to work well enough. Anyone got a Treo?

-L

Luke,

Are you thinking of connecting via Verizon Wireless Mobile Office service? I know there is a way to use your cell phone as a wireless modem if you get the usb cable for it (which you can get for sure at cellphonemall.net).

Keith

The Treo 600 is not bluetooth enabled.

Bob Goat wrote: Luke,

Are you thinking of connecting via Verizon Wireless Mobile Office service? I know there is a way to use your cell phone as a wireless modem if you get the usb cable for it (which you can get for sure at cellphonemall.net).

Keith

Luke, while I agree with Julie that customers might feel uncomfortable with such a setup (I certainly would, if I didn't know the people involved), I don't think making note of the "reset" option would do much in the way of reassuring such folks. All it would really do is remind them of the possibilty that their information could be captured, and that you've thought of this, as well.

Also, as long as someone has a GSM card to a service with a wireless plan, I can provide a phone and cable for the duration of the convention (I have tons of cell phones lying around).

Internet access through a cell phone is slow, slow, slow. I believe Verizon has a higher-speed service than GPRS, though I know nothing about it. Also, they're not a GSM service, so I wouldn't have any neat gadgets or cables lying around that would help.

[EDITED TO ADD:]
Oh, and the "bluetooth to Treo with data plan" should work with any bluetooth phone and data plan. It's the data service that's important here, not the phone. I have a couple of spare GSM bluetooth phones (unlocked Nokia 6820 and T-Mobile Motorola a630) that I'd be willing to lend for the duration of the con.

Ok, duly noted that some folks might be nervous about their information. Those folks are going to be in the minority and they'll probably be as reluctant to purchase from us as they would be from anyone else. In my experience last weekend, this was not a factor. Let's move on.

-L

I agree that this is a great idea and we should Forge ahead. One thing to keep in mind when laying out tables at the booth on Wednesday is to have enough table space for the laptop with space next to it for someone to sit and type. The booth's going to be tight and this'll make it tighter, but I think it's well worth it.

BTW, the above encapsulates my entire tech-savvy on this issue, so I'll likely need some help when it comes time to actually set up pages, etc.

For simplicity's sake i think all the paypal sales should go into one account. If someone want's five games it'll be a pain in the ass to process 5 orders (not to mention time consuming), and doing it both ways will just confuse matters at the end of the day.

I'm pretty sure we all have Paypal accounts, so it wouldn't take much to transfer each of our total sales monies into our accounts at the end of each day. Granted, this let's Paypal double dip, but it may be worth the saved hassle.

I'd be willing to pony up the $25 for the internet access. If you think about it, if accepting credit cards gives me a couple extra sales, I'll make that $25 back easily.

,Matt

Hey guys,

Here's another solution, which is very low-tech and inelegant, but perhaps suitable as a fallback plan if the whole wireless thing doesn't work out.

We get one of those slidey-things that process credit cards, and have ONE company be the receiver of all those funds. Then that company pays off the other companies at the end of the con.

Problem #1: accounting; basically this means a whole new headache for the troubled people who have to work the cash register already.

Problem #2: ripoff; the company who's serving as recipient stands to lose money because there's no way to check whether the card is any good through this method.

As I say, it's a backup suggestion.

Best,
Ron

From a technical standpoint - I have no idea what you're talking about with CDMA and whatnot.

Purchasing a wireless connection from the convention center may be our only option, but it's an expensive one. Your other problem is power - no laptop's going to go all day. I have an iBook with wireless that I'll bring - that's 4 hours of power per day there. We'll want two more laptops with wireless service to get us through a day.

Clinton, is that time considering that it'll be in sleep mode a good chunk of the time? You can also force it into sleep mode directly after each transaction, or (less convenient, but very power-saving) shut it down each time.

Andrew Morris wrote: Clinton, is that time considering that it'll be in sleep mode a good chunk of the time? You can also force it into sleep mode directly after each transaction, or (less convenient, but very power-saving) shut it down each time.

Lisa and I used to do little shows, and Lisa sold cellphones out of a kiosk for a tiny cellphone company. We were talking about Ron's suggestion of a last-ditch effort to use the slidey-dealy. Here's what came to mind.

1. If you go with the slidey-dealy, you don't necessarily have to deal with the possibility of fraud. Each credit card company has a toll-free number you can call (as a business) to confirm the validity of the card. Downside being that this takes a while. Those toll-free numbers are usually poorly maned. From Lisa's experience anyway.

2. Has anyone yet contacted their bank to determine if they would provide the necessary materials for this endeavour? I know my bank's pretty cool about stuff like that and if I took the time to walk into any one of the branches and explained the situation, I'd have someone there who knew what they were talking about sitting right next to me, explaining all my options and what I needed to do to get the ball rolling. Good banks are worth every penny of fees.

3. On the same note as above; Has anyone contacted the major credit card companies' information lines? Certainly there are people from Visa, Mastercard, Amex, and Discover that are just eagerly waiting to help you help people use their cards. After all, they don't make a dime on cash sales and want their consumers to swipe that card. It's third-hand info, but when I was bartending for a little (yet insanely expensive) italian place last year the owner of the place haggled with AmEx 'till they provided us with boxes and boxes of useful items. From running a new telephone line for us, to providing all new swipe machines, to providing us with a case of those little books you get your bill in at the end of the meal.

Hope some of that helps. I probably would have spent twice as much at Origins if the right people had taken plastic.

-Eric (with help from Lisa)

Hi Clinton,

As far as I know, power's not an issue. Greg Porter brings his laptop and drycell arrangement every year. Last year he powered the register and his own computer. I'll bet we could get by with our batteries and his.

And, there is no wireless option at the convention center. There is only a wired ethernet option at 56kps rate for $450 for the weekend. As I said, that's $25 each. If we can get a functioning wireless modem, we can get the cost down to $2 each.

-L

Here's a thought -- most cell phone companies will let you add on services like data connection outside of your contract. So, depending on your provider, you might be able to sign up for a month of data access, then cancel after the convention. This wouldn't be too expensive, especially when divided up between participants. Heck, in my experience, if you call customer service and say that you're considering adding on a data plan, most providers will give you a free month to try and convince you. If you do decide to go this route, Verizon (or any other company with something faster than standard GPRS would be a good candidate). On the down side, the person has to give up their cell phone for a good chunk of the convention, a thought which gives me shakes.

One thing to consider with using a cell phone as a modem is whether or not you can get a solid signal from inside the building. It won't help if you have to run outside the dealer's hall each transaction to get a clear signal.

Didn't want to gum up the works, but there is that concern. I'll gladly learn whatever method we pick and help out with CC transactions at the booth.

-Andy

well, considering that last year I used my sprint/sanyo to argue with Express Media for a good 30 minutes while pacing the exhibit hall floor, I'm not too worried. But it is a possibility.

-L

I've done a small amount of research on Ron's suggested fallback plan.

First, the "slidey-thing" is called a credit card imprinter. It usually includes a personalized plate that identifies the seller. It is a low-tech way to capture credit card numbers for confirmed sales. More high tech point of sale equipment are card swipers with wireless capability for card number verification.

In addition to a credit card imprinter or other POS equipment, the retailer needs a merchant account from a bank or other third party entity (there are lots of them). The merchant account is required to handle the financial transactions with the credit card companies. There are different flavors of merchant accounts based on types of expected sales-- face-to-face, telephone, or internet. A merchant account usually has fees associated with it or some percentage cut of sales. If I understand all this correctly, paypal basically acts as a merchant account provider for internet sales.

The upshot is that using a credit card imprinter may be a fallback plan, but I don't think it will work as a last minute deal-- not unless someone at the booth already has an established merchant account set up for in-person retail sales. I was not able to get a good sense of fee structures so I do not know if it would be any less costly than what Luke is proposing.

Julie

Clinton R. Nixon wrote: From a technical standpoint - I have no idea what you're talking about with CDMA and whatnot.

Right, GSM is more flexible and common, but CDMA is faster and superior in other ways. As to the speeds, GPRS service (which is the kind of data connection you'd get with a GSM provider) runs at about 9-40 kbps, while a dial-up connection is around 33 kbps. On average, though, yes, GPRS will run slower than a phone line connection.

The CDMA services can get faster data transfer rates, but I don't know them off the top of my head.

Another suggestion: take a look at the exhibit hall map, and contact the companies nearby to see if they have a proper credit card/wireless setup. You record the inventory sold at your booth, give the credit card and a total to a runner, and he hops over to the other booth and runs the transaction.

When I've done this with other companies, the company with the credit card system pays the borrower with cash at the end of the day, minus a small service fee -- 5-10%.

Cheers,
Adam

A) I'm in! I know I missed out on sales last year because of that and considered hauling in a laptop if I was doing it myself.

B) GSM isn't neccesarily more common. TDMA/CDMA is moreso, especially in rural areas and "the pickers" (Michigan is actually fairly aweful yet for GSM - I know, I sell the damn things :( Get calls every week from about a half-a-dozen unsatisfied GSM customers). GSM and PCS (the majority of Sprint's network) is still, mostly, in the more populated areas. Which means Indy is cool, I just had to babble ^_^

Adam wrote: When I've done this with other companies, the company with the credit card system pays the borrower with cash at the end of the day, minus a small service fee -- 5-10%.

I think $450 for an ethernet connection is exorbitant, like all the other rental fees (regardless of how many ways the $450 is split). If there is a wireless network in the convention center, my laptop has a wireless card in it.

Another option which I think I mentioned a few months back is that I think Nextel has a cell phone with an add-on credit card swiper. I bet it costs less than $450! The question is whether anyone at the booth attends enough conventions that they would want such a beastie.

http://www.nextel.com/en/solutions/special_devices/creditel.shtml

I think the "ka-chunk" credit card imprinter is fine for all our purposes, if we have someone who already has a credit card account for same.

Greg
BTRC

btrc wrote: Another option which I think I mentioned a few months back is that I think Nextel has a cell phone with an add-on credit card swiper.

I don' t have a merchant account. I'm not setting up a merchant account. Hell, Ke20 doesn't even have a merchant account. From what I remember, they're expensive.

We can use paypal's credit card processing service. prolly more expensive per unit, but cheaper for us in the long run.

End of story. No merchant account.

No merchant account means no swipey cool stuff. Oh well. We rock it new school and do it through the laptops.

Greg, you'll be bringing your drycell, right?

As far as I know, there is no wireless network in the convention hall. Which is why we need a cellular modem or a bluetooth enabled phone with a data transfer plan. We used this latter option at Origins and it worked fine.

I'm going to go to sprint today and get a new phone and plan.

What I need now, is someone to set up the Forge CC website. We need a shopping cart that lists all the products and is compliant with paypal's Website Payments Pro. While I can do this myself, I'm not the best programmer in the world. So if someone else wanted to volunteer a few hours to help out, I'd really appreciate it.

Since I got the ball rolling on this, I'll act as the bank. I'll pay out all CC transactions post con.

Total cost for this set up: ~$20 for the business data plan + $20 for the Paypal service. Divide that by 20 companies... and it's $2 each for set up fees. I'll collect at the con. ;)


-L

Don't forget that you need someone to volunteer their phone for the duration, though, unless you go with another method.

Andrew Morris wrote: Don't forget that you need someone to volunteer their phone for the duration, though, unless you go with another method.

Luke thought he wrote:
I'm going to go to sprint today and get a new phone and plan.

Excellent! As I understand it, Luke is now looking for someone to help with the programming for the Forge CC website. Step up, someone, probably through private communication.

This thread is probably due for closure about now.

Best,
Ron

I'll be bringing my Toshiba. It's a Windows machine, so if we need such a thing for any reason that might be useful. It'll run about 2.5 hours with a wireless connection.

Thomas

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Hi folks,

There's been a lot of good input on this thread, but just in case anyone needs to be reminded, unless one of the primary folks besides me (Greg, Vincent, Paul, Luke) makes a decision about the credit card processing and organizes what to do, it's not gonna happen. I really hope no one is assuming that if everyone just tosses in all the information, that somehow I will step up, decide what to do, and take care of all the details.

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron,

Don't you worry your little head! Clinton, Keith and I have this under control. Hopefully, I'm going to have a prototype set up by next weekend and I'll be able to test it out at a local con (dexcon).

if anything goes wrong, or we need additional help, I'll let you know.

thanks!
-Luke

The way I see it at this point, we can probably use the PayPal virtual terminal as a way to process payments (I'll look into it), but it is still going to require internet access. My laptop has wireless, and I'm sure someone else is bringing one with it, but I'm knee-jerk opposed to paying an outrageous fee for 4 days of wireless access through geofern or whatever.

So, I guess the question people should chime in with answers on are:
1) Does anyone have a cc merchant account? If so, we can do phone authorizations of cc's or use a ka-chunk machine.
2) Does anyone have a wireless phone plan with data access? If so, and we can get a wired or bluetooth connection to a laptop, we can run a PayPal terminal for payments.
3) Does anyone have a high-powered 802.11 transmitter/receiver and/or good external antenna for their laptop. If so, we may be able to stretch wireless range to one of the adjacent hotels that has free wireless for their guests and get online that way, and run a PayPal terminal.

If no positive results show up on this thread from these questions, then we have no cc or online payment option for the show. If one or more positive results show, then those replying will need to arrange things with me/each other and we'll post the results here.

As a side note, I will be bringing the car battery/inverter setup again, and that had enough juice to run a laptop and the cash register, and we can probably add another laptop for credit cards if it is left in sleep mode when not in use.

Greg

Aren't you all just the cutest bunch of problem solvers!

Hi guys, i'm back from my extended vacation from the internet and really looking forward to seeing everyone in august.

So, it sounds like you guys have it pretty much covered, but I figured I'd toss my two cents in anyway.

Having grown up with parents that do the convention/exibit hall thing as thier main sourse of income I've learned a few things.

1) the setup you describe is good, but unreliable. If at all possible, go with a hard line over wireless.
2) Have a back up. My folks standard practice is to have two phone plans from different carriers. If one fails, the other may still be able to get through. In addition, the card imprinter Ron described is far and away the most reliable transaction device out there, and it is often much faster, but the best part is the fact that it leaves you with a hard copy of a signed reciept. Oh, and not everyone needs a seperate merchant account, you need one. All it takes is someone to write down the name of the company that the money for a transaction goes to and the amount. When the smoke clears and every one has recovered from the Con whoever is playing accountant electronicly transfers the funds from the merchant acount to the respective companies. Like a little forge booth Co-op.

The main problems become human error, solved easily by competent people. To make things even easier, write the name of the company on the hard copy reciept from the imprinter, just in cast of clerical error. Everyone knows who sold what to who and the amount, everyone gets paid.

So there you go. Hope it helps.

If all of this clicks, and credit cards are a go, folks may want to consider uping the amount of product they bring. I don't know how to calculate "sales I would have made", but I'm hearing confirmation that they were out there.

(Me, I have to buy at least: 4 copies of PTA 2nd ed, and, if it's out, at least one copy of DotV 2nd ed, ditto Mountain Witch.)

-Lisa Padol

A merchant account through Costco is cheap (24.95 a month), Costco subcontracts to a group called Nova Information Systems, who's rates and percentages are very reasonable. If anyone is a Costco member, they can set up a Merchant Services account with minimal difficulty.

If anyone is interested in the credit card swiper rout, my advice would be to set up the merchant Account through Costco under a Forge Booth over-company. Used credit card swipers can go as low as $200 on E-bay. The main cost would be the afore mentioned phone line charge to the convention center. I forget the price, but I think it was around $400. So, the total for having a swiper sounds like it could be as low as $620, devided by the number of companies at the booth (19 by my count of Ron's list) comes out to about 33 bucks a company. Fairly reasonable, if my info is correct. The main variable is the price of the swiper.

Problems with this plan are: who gets to keep the swiper when this is all over? Also, each reciept is going to have to have the name of the company the money goes to written on it, so that the money can be devided up properly in the end.

So there's all the information I've managed to come up with. Hope it helps.

Success! I'm posting from my G4 12" laptop connected to the internet via my LG-325 Bluetooth Mobile.

The connection is kind of spotty -- it only lasts a few minutes before it drops -- but it works, and works rather quickly. And the phone just auto-redials, so barely notice most drops.

Clinton and Keith have volunteered to set up the storefront. If we keep it nice and spare, it should load reasonably reliably. Paypal shouldn't be too much trouble either -- their site is slow as it is, but reliable.

Even better? The total wireless charges should be about $40 to $60 for the weekend. I'll let you know if there are any other charges that come up as I experiment.

But it looks like we should be able to get away with this option -- I had fine reception in the dealer's room last year.

Greg, the real issue will be power -- i'll need about 4 hours of power from the drycell for the laptop and the mobile. Think it'll work?

Rawk!
-Luke

Yeah, the inverter & battery will be there and capable, though it only has two power outlets. We may need a plug multiplier to have more than two things going at once. Though since everything but the cash register is battery powered, stuff can always run off its own charge while something else is charging.

Greg

Ron wrote:
Hey guys,

Here's another solution, which is very low-tech and inelegant, but perhaps suitable as a fallback plan if the whole wireless thing doesn't work out.

We get one of those slidey-things that process credit cards, and have ONE company be the receiver of all those funds. Then that company pays off the other companies at the end of the con.

Problem #1: accounting; basically this means a whole new headache for the troubled people who have to work the cash register already.

Problem #2: ripoff; the company who's serving as recipient stands to lose money because there's no way to check whether the card is any good through this method.

As I say, it's a backup suggestion.

Best,
Ron