Okay, so I needed some time to absorb the overall impression people had which was that my previous attempt at a new cover simply didn't pass muster. Ouch, but better than hearing it after it was all in print and so on.

So I have a draft of a new cover, which I hope will at least please the people who wanted a more dynamic "something's happening" pose. With much trepidation, I ask... what do folks think? Better? Worse?

On specific questions: The two vertical (more or less) lines are going to be a vertical boundary. The background will be shown only within that boundary, with the character in front breaking past it on both sides. How much detail do you think there should be on the background? I'm leaning toward something reasonably detailed (i.e. not abstract) but uncluttered... street, with texturing, and building in the background, probably somewhat on fire, but not lamp-posts and mailboxes and people screaming everywhere.

I'm trying to draw a visual link between the baby and the looming figure in the background. As I detail the Loomer, I'll be putting in a little forehead-gem to match Junior's. Do you think that's going to be enough? I originally tried for a similar star-burst power-effect around Junior's little grasping hand, but it totally threw off the rest of the foreground, and made it visually hard to read. Other options are very much welcome.

How battle-damaged should the woman be? I'm inclined toward some strategic tears of the uniform and a little blood, but even that may be too much. It would be very easy to get a disturbing "battered-woman" vibe going here.

The expression on the face of the Loomer: Remorseless and cold or desperate and angry?

Does it disturb anyone that, despite the fact that the woman is probably running somewhat in excess of the speed of sound, her hair isn't flopping back? It doesn't disturb me, but it was something I contemplated briefly on the intellectual level as I drew the hair. Should I add a pony-tail to be streaming behind her, or would it clutter things too much?

She's moving? I thought that the kid was too heavy and she was falling over from the weight.

Seriously though, I don't think that we've seen a cover for Capes yet that actually says anything about the game. Have you ever seen the cover for Aberrant? When I think of Capes, I think of the scene from that cover with The Fireman.

As for your specifics...

I wouldn't like anything in the background at all. Capes is about the characters so I'd make sure the cover was all about the characters too with nothing to distract from what they're doing.

I like the link between the Loomer and the baby. But I'd make it -really- drastic. Like, the loomer and the baby are both Lizardmen. Too subtle and the casual glance might miss the connection.

At the same time I'd try to make the Loomer look as evil as possible and the Fasty-woman as Good as possible. That way, when you notice the link, you ask "Hey, why is the Goodie stealing a baby from the Baddie? What's the story here?" In that regard, I'd make the FastyWoman totally unscathed. Give her a white & chrome uniform. Something that just -reeks- of goodness. Then, make the Loomer all beat up, black & red, pissed all to hell and ready to bring down armageddeon.

Heh. Maybe a smug look of victory on FastyWoman?

-Eric

Hmm...I have to say, I don't know why you're changing the cover in the first place. I like the original cover most, the previous revision not as much, and this one even less. Of course, I'm not a visual person, so take my comments with that in mind.

The original cover said "superheroes" to me. The first revision said "social dynamics...oh yeah, and super powers." This one says "stealing babies for some unknown purpose -- and maybe angels, or something." What are you trying to say with the cover?

As to the hair not streaming backward, yes, that bothers me a bit. Not much, but once I've noticed it, it's hard to ignore.

If the loomer is male, then, yes, I could easily see the "battered-woman" vibe.

As hinted at, the loomer seems a bit too "angelic" to me, but that might just be the wings.

My advice is going to fall into that seemingly useless on the surface but ultimately I think the best advice anyone can give you category.

Go with what moves you. You could come up with sketches all day everyday and you'll always have the same result. Some people will like it, some people won't care, and some people will think its horrible. And unless you stumble into one of the few truly great covers of all time, or just put together a shoddy piece...the ratios between those categories will be pretty close to the same every time.

Remember back a few Capes threads where certain folks (ahem...) were offering some pretty sharp criticism on your mechanics...and you were in there swinging defending those mechanics because you believed in them strongly. That's what you need. When you find a cover that says "right" to you in a way that you'd be willing to defend your choices of cover the way you were willing to defend your choices of mechanics...then that will be the right one...regardless of what us helpful folks might think.

*Changing my stance to stand next to Ralph and nod a lot*

-Eric

Did I somehow not make it clear that I'm feeling battered by the lack of positive responses from the last thread? I didn't come right out and say it, but I thought I was pretty clear....

Would it kill you to find one thing you liked, and include a reference to that along with all of the criticism? I try not to be a whiny little twit, but I do have insecurities, and this whole "presenting my art for scrutiny" thing has me feeling pretty vulnerable. Hearing back only things like "she looks like she's falling over" and "I don't know why you even bother" is not helping my drive to continue.

EDIT: Crossposted with Ralph.

Hiya,

I usually hate "critique my cover" threads, even more than I hate "name my game" threads.

But ... considering that this particular example seems to be especially difficult, here's my advice.

Tony - use the back image from the original printing. Clear, clean, simple, fun.

I think you have tried to pack in too much system, action, "point," and business into all of the proposed covers so far.

The game is superheroes. Show us a superhero, without all the nuances. Just what "is." And wham, I realized that you already did it, with a wonderful clarity, with that back cover.

My advice: Use that.

Best,
Ron

just a nitpick...

maybe have someone... with a cape on the cover?


maybe?

Sorry, Tony, I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings. I like you and Capes both. But, then, I already know I have no tact. Also, I prefer negative feedback, myself, as it shows me where the weaknesses are. I assume everyone feels the same way. The "why bother" comment was just to show that I thought the cover was great as is.

Besides, your worst far outstrips my best, and I was actually thinking that I wished I had the talent to illustrate my own games, like you do with Capes.

Also, for all I know, I like the covers in the order I listed because they are in that order of completion. Maybe when this one is finished, I'd look at it and kick myself for not being able to envision how awesome it would turn out.

Now, the positive -- the illustration does indicate that Capes is about more than the archetypal slugfest between good and evil. It shows that part of the game is, or can be, about making hard moral choices and overcoming adversity.

Y'know what, I'm going to go with Ralph on this. So, in my absolute happiest "We're all friends and posts (negative or otherwise) on any side aren't going to change that", let me say "Screw what anyone else thinks! I like this picture! I like the baby clutching at spandex, and clearly having a ball while everyone else is grim and serious. And I'm going to finish the picture, then see whether I want it for a cover or just something nice to stick in as an illustration somewhere."

Gotta stop expecting you guys to do my thinking for me... it's just so seductive, with all these brains on tap. But, anyway, sorry for blowing up, sorry for whining. I came in with one of those questions that nobody could answer in a way I'd like, and I got all huffy because nobody answered in a way I liked. Very much my bad, and an indication more of my rising stress levels than anything else.

I've only very minor critiques more from a way to enhance this layout. I agree that if you're happy with your cover, stick with it.

1. The feeling of motion isn't quite there yet. It's close, but needs something more representative to exaggerate the motion. This could be as simple as making sure as seeing both legs as separate entities instead of a single mass composition-wise, or a cape, or long hair or all of the above.

2. The figure in the background doesn't feel that threatening to me in it's pose. I'd recommend something over the top or an action that seems like all bleep is going to break loose at any second, or that they're in hot pursuit.

3. Something to link the name of the game to the cover is nice, but if it's just a metaphor, I'd not worry too much about it.

4. Make the child worried or fearful or crying to heighten the sense of threat and drama maybe? Just a thought.

All in all though, I repeat, if you like what you got, stick with it. I know I will with my game, much to the frustration of some people who have kibbutzed. These are opinions, please take them as such and reject as such as needed. ;c)

I like this cover; but as Ralph said - go with what you like.

A few comments:

1. Her body looks too short to me, or more accurately her legs seem to start too early.

2. Her hands and feet look outsized to me, especially by the silly standards of superhero comics.

3. Now you've mentioned the hair, it bugs me. I also think it'd look more dynamic were it in motion.

4. Her arms are different lengths.

5. I'd have the villian in the background simply floating without wings; it's more superhero-y to me. You could give him a menancing cape blowing in the wind as well.

But, as I said, I like this cover. It seems to me to convey Capes rather well. I liked the original cover too though.

I like the picture. I don't know if it'd make a great cover or not either but the picture is cool. One of the nice things about the picture is that even though there is obviously action, the action is open to interpretation. I really don't *know* what is going on in the picture but I can certainly come up with situations that would make sense.

Also, if this is up for the cover of Capes, I agree with the poster above who said "have someone with a cape". The name of your game is Capes. A staple of the superhero genre is capes. Have a cape... they're cool.

Yeah... the "wings" are supposed to be a Cape, for what it's worth. I'm trying to make that more evident with shading and color.

I wonder if I'm the only person who recognized that it is a cape from the first. I wonder if the picture really is that obtuse, or if its one of those fun perception games where because someone early on mentioned wings and angels that it colored everyone elses perception.

Anyway. Good call on keeping the picture of interior art if nothing else.

What would you think of making Looming guy really loom. Like Galactus-sized looming; reaching to pluck the woman up.

Valamir wrote: I wonder if I'm the only person who recognized that it is a cape from the first. I wonder if the picture really is that obtuse, or if its one of those fun perception games where because someone early on mentioned wings and angels that it colored everyone elses perception.

Tony, what are you trying to communicate with your cover? The first one was very basic comic book stuff. Superhero trying to save the girl from Robo-man with pet lasershark.

Your second cover emphasized conflict between PCs, and made "saving the world" feel secondary.

This draft... it seems to emphasize emotional, moralistic stuff. It looks like a mother saving her child from something tragic... yeah that's it, it almost looks tragic to me. Like the mother is trying to flee with her child... but maybe I'm reading more into it than I should.

Anyway, forget actual images for a moment -- what are you trying to communicate with the cover?

Even more importantly, are you still looking for feedback, Tony? Or have you gotten what you need from this thread?

I don't want to be flippant, but I think the answer here is always going to be "That which sells copies." I've pretty much given up on the notion of conveying the soul of an RPG through visual art. It seems to be the same sort of apples-and-oranges endeavour as trying to convey the plot of Casablanca in soup. You can make a morroccan soup with a hint of sauerkraut and serve it with weak french wine, but it's really not the same.

EDIT: Crossposted... but yeah, I've probably gotten all the feedback I can use on this draft. It's done, and at Kinkos to make up a table-poster for use at DexCon, so that'll give me plenty of time staring at it to figure out what I want to do differently. Thanks everyone! Particularly for your patience with my pre-con-jittery self.

Dear Tony;

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. I gave you the same kind of advice I give my husband, but he's a professional artist and can't afford to take feedback personally. He decides to use or discard advice. He has the final say. He's the artist.

As are you. As my husband said about you, "He's obviously got some talent." His advice? Keep doing art!

Always remember, art is a craft as well as a passion. Like any craft, no matter if you just started or are at the top of your field, there is room for improvement, and no picture will be perfect. NO MATTER WHAT! The masters are masters because they're dead, and they can't get any better. So don't take what people say personally, that's just their opinion and you can take it or leave it.

The last thing I want to say, is that art is subjective. So don't be upset if people don't see what you see in your art. This goes for me, a critic, a gamer, or anyone else. Never change unless you think that's what is needed. Just because I say something, doesn't mean it's true or right. You have to decide for yourself what works for you. This experience is something you can learn from in the future, even if it was painful at times.

Always remember, you're the artist and you have the final say. Good luck in all your endeavours and hang in there. I look forward to seeing this latest version in color. It's very dynamic. Consider what people said on this thread, and accept or reject it. Do you think it is valuable advice? Do you think it's true? Make improvements or not -- it's all up to you. That is the ultimate power and responsibility of the artist.