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Topic: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?
Started by: LandonSuffered
Started on: 7/19/2005
Board: RPG Theory


On 7/19/2005 at 8:26pm, LandonSuffered wrote:
Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

This is another topic of discussion I’ve been aching to have, and I did not find any older threads on the Forge…if anyone has one, please post a link.

Race or species seems to be an important component of many fantasy RPGs (and by fantasy I include “space fantasy” like Star Wars), sometimes seeming inherentin the design of a High Concept setting (e.g. Tolkien’s elves in Middle-Earth RPGs).  But are they really a necessary?

I submit the following for discussion:

a) All fantasy races are anthropomorphized; there are no truly alien races, per se.  All “races” are scaled to humans and have human personalities, sometimes emphasized in one fashion or another.  No species personality can be truly designed except in terms of human personality.

Example:  Aside from size, hairiness, and communication ability, Chewbacca is not a whole lot different from my wife.  Both have an acute sense of smell, a fierce temper, and tend to think with their bellies when hungry; likewise, both are extremely loyal and protective.

b) Aside from color considerations, all fantasy races are created in terms of human ability: sometimes greater, sometimes lesser.  This is no different from creating a below average or above average human character and adding special advantages/merits and disadvantages/flaws.

Example:  Dwarves are short (compared to humans), strong (compared to humans), tough (compared to humans).  They have an advantage of having good vision in the dark and an exceptional lifespan and disadvantages associated with their size, low birth rate, sink like stones because of their dense bones.

c) Race/species are unnecessary system components and serve function mainly as filler based on setting of the fantasy world.

Example: Melniboneans (hell, Drow) are cruel, eccentric, sensual folk that once ruled the Young Kingdoms, similar to the Romans at their (socially) most decadent period.  Any character created in this game world can be imbued with these characteristics, and if the character happens to have some sorcerer ability and a good supply of wealth, the player is free to say “hey, this guy’s a Melnibonean.”  Special rules for character generation are unnecessary, including bonuses to attributes or special extra languages.

Especially with regard to any kind of space opera fantasy (e.g. Star Wars or Flash Gordon), special races or devoting much time to them outside of setting description seems a waste of space.  You want to play a furry cat-like humanoid? Ok…make sure he has a high agility. Oh, he wants to have climbing claws and night vision?  Take those as advantages and trade something else down.  Describe his back-story and culture just like any other character and go from there.

The only place where special races and rules regarding them might be considered important and truly integral to a game design is in games created to specifically explore what it means to be a particular race. 

Good example:  Ork World
Bad example:  Vampire the Masquerade (where you’re still exploring what it means to be vampire in terms of once being a human)

Other than games of this type, I propose that “race” or “species” as a component of system (as opposed to color) is pretty much unnecessary and possibly redundant/obsolete.

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On 7/19/2005 at 9:15pm, ewilen wrote:
Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

You might have a look at this recent thread: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=15966.0

But basically, I agree. I think that most "fantasy races" in RPGs and fiction are just copying Tolkien, with little reference to earlier fantasy (fiction and myth). They should be ditched or reimagined in terms of the original sources.

As they get farther from the Tolkien races, fantasy races become exotic "others", standing in for national and ethnic divisions on Earth. In which case, they can be powerful exploratory elements (via exaggeration of difference in degrees or ways not possible with humans) and they can bring into focus the ethnocentric concept that "others" are "not human"--without directly invoking real-world prejudice, either because the latter is difficult for the players to relate to (if it were only so) or because it's too close to home.

But the treatment of "races" in Star Wars and Star Trek became increasingly silly over the years, I'm afraid. Star Wars went from mysterious, scary but sometimes sympathetic Others (Jawas, the Cantina clientele, Chewbacca), giving the sense of a cosmopolitan empire, to silly clowns, teddybears, and boogiemen. Star Trek went from challenging moral differences (Vulcans, Romulans, and Klingons) to various configurations of forehead bumps.

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On 7/19/2005 at 9:17pm, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Landon, I am a little unclear on your usage of the terms race and species here. Can you clarify?

It might be useful to you to think, instead of why these things are not useful, about how they can be useful. I believe, personally, that the technique of parceling out mechanical abilities and setting colour in this and related ways (D&D's classes do the same thing) is pretty useful, since it gives the players meaningful structure to build on and links the two elements in an obvious way.

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On 7/20/2005 at 12:22am, LandonSuffered wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Shreyas: I added species to emphasize I was talking about traditional RPG race (like dwarves, elves, wookies, yazirians, humans), rather than racial ethnicities (caucasian, east asian, etc.).  I know most people talking about “race” with regard to RPGs immediately consider the former, but I was trying to avoid any confusion.  Sorry for the confusion!

Ewilen: thank you very much for the link…I wish I’d reviewed this (and the links within the link) before posting.

However, reviewing it now, I see a lot of the stuff my post is aimed at addressing:

Reasons for race #1 (Jack Aidley)

1) Provide extra choice in character creation
2) An additional personality mechanic
3) To increase the feeling of fantasy

Reasons for race #2 (simon_hibbs)

1) Hardwired differences in psychology (c.f. #2 above)
2) To explore environments not conducive to humans (“Flash Gordon” factor)
3) As a shorthand for culture
4) Because you’re duplicating/evoking a setting (c.f. High Concept)

Reasons for race #3 (Ron Edwards c.f. the class issue)

1) As one of the 4 roles in RPGs, race helps ground character in an Exploratory context

Reason for race #4 (Doctor Xero)

1) Helps with socially contracted suspension of belief based on definition of race as role

Reason for race #4 (from Species/Race/Culture)

1) To give different bonuses and sell splat books
2) To address different themes
3) To act as a metaphor for real race/ethnicity

Oh…and here’s RyuMaou asking something pretty close to my same question:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=9996.15

And here’s Ron again (same post):

We've beaten that one into the ground pretty thoroughly in the past…


Great.  Okay, so forgo the “discussion” part of my original post.  I guess some folks find it useful to use race in the design of a game. My question (as relates to RPG Theory design) is this:

Is it necessary to have “race” as class in a fantasy game…that is, is it necessary to give that kind of direction and definition to players (including GMs), rather than just having:
(characters that are scaleable to human norm) + color

I’m not saying take the non-human out of fantasy games (I agree with prior posts that different intelligent races is part of what makes fantasy fantastic.  But if I make a game that says “here there be elves and dwarves” and do not give rules specific to creating them/playing them (other than setting description), can players still function?

Again think in terms of space opera...hundred of intelligent, possible-PC races but no "list of races" to pick from.

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On 7/20/2005 at 1:12am, SlurpeeMoney wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Space Opera can be done without multiple races, as was proven quite nicely with Firefly (go buy DVDs; great series; Joss Whedon is just another name for God). Nothing but humans ever show up in Firefly, but it manages to maintain the Space Opera feel through culture and, god forbid, personality.

I think the same thing could be done in fantasy role-playing. If you need an extra "class," why not use cultural backgrounds? It was done rather effectively in the Wheel of Time by Wizards of the Coast. Even the ogier, a different species, was lumped in with the backgrounds, as they were the only playable non-humans.

Do you need to have species act like a character class? No, not really. It's the current norm, but that could be from lack of imagination as much as percieved neccessity. Race could act just like Advantage/Disadvantage traits (Witchcraft's Baast characters), or be an entirely unattended trait (the fact that your character is a dwarf provides no system bonuses at all, simply color).

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On 7/20/2005 at 1:56am, Troy_Costisick wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Heya,

Races aren't necessary... but neither are classes, or levels, or stats, or spells, or feats, or equipment tables, or any of that other stuff.  You can make a fine game lacking some or all of those things.  However, conventions like races, spells, feats, skills, and so on are excellent tools to build a fantasy RPG. 

It's good to question long held traditions in game design.  But asking if some trope is necessary to *any* game isn't going to get you anywhere.  The answer is always no.  The real question is whether or not they are necessary to *your* game.  If they are, then you'd better use them and innovate with them.  If they aren't, then they'd better not show up or people will notice how "tacked-on" they feel. 

There are a lot of motifs in fantasy game design.  None of them are necessary on their own.  All of them are useful in their own way.  You have to make a decision which ones work for you and why  they are useful to you.  Always answer why.  Because if you don't, the players will ask once they use it for the first time, and IMHO that's not a good thing.

Peace,

-Troy

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On 7/20/2005 at 12:24pm, simon_hibbs wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

LandonSuffered wrote:
a) All fantasy races are anthropomorphized; there are no truly alien races, per se.  All “races” are scaled to humans and have human personalities, sometimes emphasized in one fashion or another.  No species personality can be truly designed except in terms of human personality....

b) Aside from color considerations, all fantasy races are created in terms of human ability: sometimes greater, sometimes lesser.....


These are pretty egregious generalisations, and in fact the last one is meaningless. If we are to rate characters according to Strength for example, then yes some non-humans may have greater or lesser strength than average humans, or even beyond the human range. You could equaly say that some races will have strengths greater or lesser than Donkeys, or Rabbits. That's just the nature of linear scales - for any given point, or range on the scale, other points or ranges will be higher, or lower or the same.

Another problem is that human languages were developed to communicate concepts, ranges and potentials in human-relative terms. Therefore any game written in a human language will face these in-built assumptions. This isn't necesserily a bad thing, as human abilities and attributes are presumably more familiar to the average RPG audience on earth that the abilities of any alien species you may care to mention. It makes sense to communicate alien abilities in human terms to a human audience.

Finaly not all RPGs, or fictional settings in general, fall into the rubber-suited alien stereotype. To repeat myself, as I've said the on The Forge before, Glorantha is a excelent example of a world with notably alien non-human races, with deep psychological, metaphysical and physical differences from humans. This is a game world that first saw publication in an RPG in the 1970s.

c) Race/species are unnecessary system components and serve function mainly as filler based on setting of the fantasy world.


With regard to Melniboneans, you are somewhat missing the point. The protagonist - Elric of Melnibone - is of course an incarnation of the Eeternal Champion, who in other novels manifests as a human or a member of various other races. One of Moorcocks themes is the interchangeability of race and culture.

In the case of Tolkien, which you don't explicitly mention, the different races served the purpose of a mythological cycle. They represent archtypes familiar to us from North European mythology, which are vital to the narative. Would the unatainability of Luthien to Beren have been as poignant had she been a mortal human? Would her sacrifice - surrendering immortality and the grace of the Eldar to be with her lover - have been as poignant? Perhaps, but these are the narative devices he chose to use, and I think it's churlish to dismiss them as being mere window dressing.

The only place where special races and rules regarding them might be considered important and truly integral to a game design is in games created to specifically explore what it means to be a particular race. 

Good example:  Ork World
Bad example:  Vampire the Masquerade (where you’re still exploring what it means to be vampire in terms of once being a human)


The whole Vampire theme is the surrender of one's humanity as the pursuit of power. How much would you give up to be Immortal? How low would you stoop, and what are the consequences? Are themes like that realy so utterly unworthy of pursuit? Perhaps VM doesn't always satisfy such a creative agenda, but it's still there is you choose to do so.

Simon Hibbs

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On 7/20/2005 at 3:49pm, LandonSuffered wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Thank you folks for your responses.

Troy: you answered my original post very well, as did the thread(s) supplied by ewilen.

Simon:  My original post was not asking if races were necessary to fantasy fiction or to fantasy RPGs, but whether or not system rules are necessary for them.

I agree that I am making a generalization using linear scaling; the reason to use a human scale (instead of a donkey or rabbit one) is best summed up in your point that "it makes sense to communicate alien abilities in human terms to a human audience."  I could not agree more...in fact, I think that's the only way to communicate alien abilities.

Anyway, my main reason for this discussion thread I guess comes from a gripe that whenever a new fantasy game comes out, it usually includes a bunch of different "races," all scaled on a baseline norm that is "human." This scaling is done in personality as well as abilities, plus add some extra advantages and disadvantages.  I read a review praising D20 Star Wars the other day that talked about how well they included "all these cool alien races."  I was just pondering: is the inclusion of special races with several abilities and special racial adjustments, etc. necessary for a fantasy RPG?

I was thinking in terms of my own game design...why should I come out with a section on elves or wookies or whatever...can't I just say yes you can be a non-human...you make him the same way as a human, then add gills and a tail...or whatever.

How often has someone thrown away a randomly genreated character because it had 1 or 2 ability scores that were "un-playable?"  Why not simply say, this character is a non-human race with a willowy stature (low strength), terribly hideous with a mouth full of molars (low charisma), etc.

But it appears that there is an expectation to throw in some fantasy races (with stats, rules) when creating a fantasy game, and my question was do players need it?  I guess as an indie game designer, I should have asked "do I need it?"  And at this point I think both those questions have been answered to my satisfaction.

Thanks again, folks!

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On 7/22/2005 at 12:35am, zircher wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

A friend of mine turned me on to this thread, excellent discussion.

Now that the problem has been identified, how would you all go about fixing it?  I'm particularly interested in aliens that can be PCs.  I really really do not want humans in a rubber suit.  So, what steps can I take within a game system to help players actually role play them?

The first thought is to basically write up an essay that describes not just the alien biology, but cultural high points that color the way they think about themselves and the other races that they have encounters.

To put that into a frame work, I'm working on a RPG source book(s) using the Fuzion system.  The universe setting is Fire on the Suns, a fairly generic but large wargaming setting created by Greg Ellis.  It's high on space opera scale with lots of biological sterotypes.
--
TAZ

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On 7/22/2005 at 1:10pm, Jack Aidley wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Powerful, game-influencing, personality mechanics. I think. Ones that are dialed differently for other races. The problem then is making them fun.

I see several avenues for this line of thinking:

1. Direct behavioural mechanics: the guy insults me, I roll to see if I get angry. I am belittled, I roll to see if I keep a grudge. The hot hunk walks by I roll to see if I get a crush on him. Perhaps even bizarelly alien choices: I see the bush, I roll to see if I am compelled to talk to it. Trouble here is a real and present risk of overwhelming de-protaginisation. A gentler option is if I can choose to roll to see how I act (similar to Pendragon, I guess).

2. Reward mechnics. I rewarded with xp if I play my elf as aloof, or gain extra dice on a conflict if I am doing something 'elfy'.

3. Punishment mechanics. I am docked xp, or gather some kind of penalty point if I act in a way that is 'un-elfy'.

Of the three, I see 1 as holding the most potential, but also a very high risk of going badly wrong. I've never seen a punishment mechanic being fun so I doubt the potential of 3, while 2 strikes me as the easiest to implement in an effective manner.

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On 7/22/2005 at 2:56pm, Rob Carriere wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

How about: change the character-sheet bedrock.

So, if a human has, say, Int, Wis, Cha, then a Foo might have Need, Desire, Guile, or maybe Knowledge, Fear, Reputation, or...

This could get the rules complex rather quickly, but then, if you want to deal with aliens in any depth, you definitely only want a handful of species (except possibly as background color--but those are mechanically irrelevant.)

All this is of course inspired by Sorceror's demons. In that game, the GM will play the demons as demonic, because it is either that or toss the charactersheet. Nevertheless, within the boundaries of that charactersheet, the demon-player is as free as the human-player is within the boundaries of his charactersheet.

SR
--

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On 7/22/2005 at 3:24pm, Justin Marx wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Better yet:
How many games exist where Humans are not there at all? When I was a wee youngster I started writing what would be called a Heartbreaker with no humans, until my friends said they wouldn't play fantasy if they couldn't play humans.

I like Rob's solution, very very interesting. Tricky in a unified mechanic, of course, but an interesting concept nonetheless. To show true imagination in understanding the personality of an alien race (I am avoiding fantasy for the meantime) is tricky - Olaf Stapledon's sci-fi book 'Star Maker' has some fairly bland races in it, but when he starts philosophising from their perspective is where it becomes utterly unique. Most people stick with using humans as the cosmic average (or worse yet, the most disgusting stereotype - the gregarious species) because they are not prepared to imagine the personality, philosophy and the ontology that an alien would percieve the universe through. Writing cultures is easy, and in my view preferable for those who want to play specialised humans (martial societies, spiritual societies). In gameplay, all the colour of the Klingons usually ends up becoming an aggressive meathead warrior with funky facial bumps and an idiotically inflated sense of samurai honour. Those who actually think about what an alien would want, or what the cultural imperatives of an individual would be, play them brilliantly and interestingly. But most people play Wookies because they have a strength and intimidation bonus, not because they like having fur and a funky deaf-mute's voice.

To develop the ontology of an alien is admittedly more difficult, as we have no experience with aliens to base anything on. Hence why we always revert to human stereotypes. Perhaps someone should think about (this made seem utterly stupid and inane, and it is, but I think it still has some merit) what goes through the head of a monkey, or a dolphin (if they are indeed higher cerebral animals) and construct a system that represents a dolphin's existence (adventuring or not.... killing penguins, I don't know) as an example. Presumably aliens would think nothing like humans. Of course we will always interpret animal (or alien) responses in human terms (a dog's loyalty, the pride of a lion), and to a certain extent this is not a bad thing, because players would have trouble getting inside the head of a creature that cannot be psychologically imagined in human terms. A nice compromise helps.

How does one play a sentient star? Or sentient nebulaic energy cloud? Stick with bipeds with funky nose bumps, it is easier for gameplay. Racial class neccesarially enforces cultural stereotypes, which does help enhance colour in particular settings.

Did someone say Firefly? Give that man a beer. A good example of why races are not needed in sci-fi as was said. And historical cultures gives ample canvas for any fantasy GM to play with without resorting to Elves and Dwarves.

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On 7/22/2005 at 4:55pm, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

zircher wrote:
A friend of mine turned me on to this thread, excellent discussion.

Now that the problem has been identified, how would you all go about fixing it?  I'm particularly interested in aliens that can be PCs.  I really really do not want humans in a rubber suit.  So, what steps can I take within a game system to help players actually role play them?
One intriguing solution I have seen appears in the game Ethos (search for threads started by 'Garbanzo'). Namely, there are several tactical actions one can take during each stage of conflict resolution, e.g. Aim, Attack, Attack Twice, Feint, etc. The various different species in the game are differentiated by modulating the efficacy of these tactics; one species, considered distinctive for its contemplative demeanour and sharp perceptions, might have a special bonus when using Aim, while a social insect might be unusually good at Assist.

As a result, in a situation where (for instance) a Vulcan would stop and Aim for a turn or two, a Klingon will Attack Extra Hard or something, and each will end up wondering why the other is doing what he did; by their understanding of the world, each took the optimal choice, and they don't have the perspective to realise that it's not universally optimal.

Hm, perspective! It occurs to me that thinkijng explicitly about what one "race" knows about others, and mechanically reinforcing this, could bring a lot of strength to the concept.

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On 7/22/2005 at 7:07pm, LandonSuffered wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Zircher said:

I really really do not want humans in a rubber suit.  So, what steps can I take within a game system to help players actually role play them?

The first thought is to basically write up an essay that describes not just the alien biology, but cultural high points that color the way they think about themselves and the other races that they have encounters.


This isn’t a bad suggestion, although it could be a tedious one if you plan on playing in a galaxy far-far-away that is teeming with intelligent alien life forms.

I’m not sure I’d use different combat tactics to define alien personality; I’d also hesitate to use any kind of personality system mechanic unless it was tied directly to the premise of the game (a la TROS). The idea of renaming human characteristics with other human characteristics doesn’t really do much to take the human out of the rubber-suit...and for that matter neither would re-naming human characteristics with alien-sounding names (calling Conscience something like “Krvesh” for example is simply putting a rubber suit on a human personality trait).

My original idea of simply scaling aliens on humans still stands...I don’t think you can do otherwise in a game unless the game is an exploration of a particular non-human race (again I point to Ork World as an example).  However, you might require that any player creating a non-human character needs to write up the essay on the race he wants to play, including abilities/personality in relation to humans, just as you suggested above.  As a GM, you are allowed to do this yourself with any new NPC cultures the characters encounter, and together with your players you could eventually create a whole catalogue of life forms.

Justin wrote:
Did someone say Firefly? Give that man a beer.


And you get a beer as well...for using ontology in a sentence!  Regarding your Heartbreaker story,  I was kicking around an idea for a non-human game with a working tilte called BUGGER-OFF! (as in bug-eyed aliens) where each player creates an alien race as “character” (the player acts as both a representative of and the the race as a whole), and work together or against each other to drive off the Earth Man (the title of the GM in the game) who has offered the characters’ planets the choice of joining the Galactic Federation or being destroyed.  Along the lines of Shreyas's last sentence, each character race would have certain advantages that are known, and certain advantages that are "rumored," and part of the game is discerning which is which.

I have also read fiction in the past where humans were portrayed as less-than-equals to non-humans and treated with equal parts contempt and amusement, and that might make for an interesting game as well (where playing a human is nothing but a disadvantage, system-wise).

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On 7/29/2005 at 5:58am, killacozzy wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

This may be considered off-topic.... but I offer it anyhow:

Why would aliens have drastically different ways of thinking than humans?

The way I look at it, all human action is based on survival instincts: eating, defending, and procreating.  Love and friendship is merely a complex way of involving other beings in your protective circle.  Sex is an instinctive desire to find "sufficient" genetic material to pair with, and physical attraction only a visual method of gauging the healthiness of the potential mate, while mental attractiveness assures the mate's ability to protect and nurture offspring.  Selfishness is about hoarding food because of the fear of its absense.  Most "peculiar" behavior in animals can be explained by studying them in their environments.  Only the physical hardware a lifeform is equipped with will actually alter how it interacts with the surrounding world.  And given that life exists to sustain itself, procreate, and then die, the only three important factors in the "thinking" of any lifeform would be food, sex, and health.

Granted, I've never seen a nitrogen-based lifeform, but I really don't see how any physically-existing alien being could deviate much from this model.  Birth, survival, and death are ever-present when elements can combine and separate from whatever stimuli apply.

Remember: Intelligence is merely an evolved survival adaptation.

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On 7/29/2005 at 6:29am, Justin Marx wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

killacozzy wrote:
This may be considered off-topic.... but I offer it anyhow:

Why would aliens have drastically different ways of thinking than humans?

The way I look at it, all human action is based on survival instincts: eating, defending, and procreating.  Love and friendship is merely a complex way of involving other beings in your protective circle.  Sex is an instinctive desire to find "sufficient" genetic material to pair with, and physical attraction only a visual method of gauging the healthiness of the potential mate, while mental attractiveness assures the mate's ability to protect and nurture offspring.  Selfishness is about hoarding food because of the fear of its absense.  Most "peculiar" behavior in animals can be explained by studying them in their environments.  Only the physical hardware a lifeform is equipped with will actually alter how it interacts with the surrounding world.  And given that life exists to sustain itself, procreate, and then die, the only three important factors in the "thinking" of any lifeform would be food, sex, and health.


That's a pretty strong, and I might say a reductionistic, opinion. Yes, species exist to self-propagate. How, they do this, and what they think about the things they do, however, is remarkably different - this subjective difference is plainly evident in ethnography and anthropological theory. The ideas you presented reflect the concept of functionalism in anthropology, first advocated by Malinowski in the early 20th century. The problem with this view of society and action is that while it may (and I say may, because while I agree with the survival instinct as a near-universal, I certainly do not with your other propositions - but this conflict is the same as between the biologists and the social anthropologists) explain why people do things, it completely removes the substance of what they do. If we simplify all animals, aliens and human beings down to our survival instincts (instincts, I might add, that are often overcome in humans - suicide being the most obvious point - it defies the survival instinct, and is one of our claims to uniqueness as a species), then we will all act the same. Why bother? What possible use is that to adding colour to a game, when adding different species is precisely an attempt to do just that?

I think our tendency to use humans as a base-line for understanding thought is because we have no other choice. Anthropomorphism rules here. I personally attempt to resist this urge in my thinking when constructing non-humans, or for that matter, the ethnocentrism that underlies our understanding of human cultures, especially ethically. These values underpin most of our character actions, at least subconsciously, unless we are working from a specific and well defined premise (e.g. the bushido code of self-sacrifice). What I think is interesting is inventing these alternate moral rationalisations, using as much imagination as we can muster and a healthy dose of cultural and historical study, which for me at any rate, puts the entire thing in perspective.

But as I said, we may never see eye to eye here because the biological and sociological schools rarely do either. To say that all action is about survival makes the action itself meaningless. Yet as rational beings we are constantly acting, thinking and appraising meaning, which influences what we do in a vast way. Intelligence is an adapted trait, there is no denying that. But what we do with our ability to invent and think is socially and culturally constructed, and limited by our physical and environmental situation, not the reverse..... I am ranting anthropology again, I'll give it a rest. By saying that the people who dropped the A-bomb were ensuring their own survival is true, in an abstract way.... but it completely washes out the substance of what they do. It also probably does not describe what the bombers were actually thinking when they were doing it.

Not sure if this derailed the topic either, but at least we will be off-topic together.

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On 7/30/2005 at 5:27am, Green wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

What about those of us who like the idea that alien races are supposed to be variations of humanity.  Not just humans in funny suits, but human beings explored from a different lens: adding, removing, or altering traits that we tend to identify as human.  Things like mortality, empathy, reason, instinct, and sensory perception (with a strong preference for vision).  In other words, alien races can bring into focus a lot of the things we take for granted about our humanity, thus allowing us to see what we would be like were we different in particular ways.  Unfortunately, alien races (or rather, anything beyond the assumed WASP background of roleplayers) rely on cariacature to make them understandable, thus stripping away a character's identity rather than enriching it.

For instance, let's consider anthropomorphic animal races.  Imagine what would happen if dogs were endowed with human-like intelligence.  Let's not talk about the plausibility of such a thing, or make assumptions about any other traits they possess aside from human-like mnemonic, reasoning, and creative abilities.  Given their instincts and their ways of perceiving the world, how would they express their "humanity"?  What kinds of societies would they have?  What would their language be like?  Their arts?  And so on and so forth.  Even then, there are thematic elements that function within both cultures and individuals.  Is loyalty a virtue or a habit?  To what extent is the well-being of the individual the well-being of the whole?  How does a different sensory orientation influence our understanding of what is beautiful?  From whence does the conflict between reason and instinct derive?  Etc.

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On 7/30/2005 at 7:09am, Justin Marx wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Green wrote: For instance, let's consider anthropomorphic animal races.  Imagine what would happen if dogs were endowed with human-like intelligence.  Let's not talk about the plausibility of such a thing, or make assumptions about any other traits they possess aside from human-like mnemonic, reasoning, and creative abilities.  Given their instincts and their ways of perceiving the world, how would they express their "humanity"?  What kinds of societies would they have?  What would their language be like?  Their arts?  And so on and so forth.  Even then, there are thematic elements that function within both cultures and individuals.  Is loyalty a virtue or a habit?  To what extent is the well-being of the individual the well-being of the whole?  How does a different sensory orientation influence our understanding of what is beautiful?  From whence does the conflict between reason and instinct derive?  Etc.


That's exactly what I was saying, perhaps I mis-interpreted the other point of view. I felt that people were suggesting to make up alternate races who were indistinct from humans except for one or two characteristics/caracatures (for example, the mainstream treatment of Elves, Dwarves, Klingons etc.... although I stress the word 'mainstream', as many people have explored these concepts in the above fashion before). And that's an excellent point regarding desiring to play variations on humans from the point of view to explore those facets of human thought and action by emphasising or negating them. Point made.

I think some of the points said on this thread were along the lines of: why do we need to make a new race to explore these themes at all? I think the answer comes down to adding colour as well as asking exploratory questions. And different strokes and all that when it comes to player preference of which is more important.....

I'm just the sort of person who thinks exploring the consciousness of a billion year old passive sentient star would be cool.... have no idea how to turn it into a game yet however.

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On 7/30/2005 at 1:49pm, simon_hibbs wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Justin wrote:
I think some of the points said on this thread were along the lines of: why do we need to make a new race to explore these themes at all? I think the answer comes down to adding colour as well as asking exploratory questions. And different strokes and all that when it comes to player preference of which is more important.....


Facilitattion of exploration is the point. Supose there is an alien race in which only one member at a time is ever sentient - or even that there is only ever one member of the species at a time. Humans have evolved the ability to sacrifice themselves for the good of the community because we are communal beings. The survival of the gene pool is all. For a species in which the individual IS the gene pool, their psychology is going to be completely different. It's hard to imagine how such a psychology could be explored conveniently in an all-human game without resorting to the excuse mental illnesses or brain damage and the problem here is that you're not dealign with an evolved, and therefore stable persona.

Larry Niven is a fine SF author who's short stories often explore the very different, yet perfectly rational psychologies of aliens who have evolved under very different circumstances than humans. For example the Pak Protectors are super-inteligent beings, yet they are absolute slaves to their instincts because, on their homeworld, to be otherwise would doom their bloodline.

Simon Hibbs

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On 7/30/2005 at 3:43pm, Green wrote:
warning: elves ahead

simon_hibbs wrote: Facilitattion of exploration is the point. (snip) It's hard to imagine how such a psychology could be explored conveniently in an all-human game without resorting to the excuse mental illnesses or brain damage and the problem here is that you're not dealign with an evolved, and therefore stable persona.


I believe this is the main thrust of it here.  There is no shortage of psychotic people whose states of mind can mirror that of typical alien species.  After all, why roleplay an android if there are humans with Asperger's syndrome?  Aren't they the same?  Yes and no.  Yes in that their behaviors and thought processes may be similar.  No in that the experience of a person with Asperger's syndrome is that of a dysfunctional human being, not as a different sort of being altogether.

Now, if we get into creatures with even more extreme traits (extreme relative to our understanding of human experience), then the more fantastic creatures become more necessary to focus on them.  Consider everyone's favorite fantasy whipping boy: the elf.  I agree that for the most part, elves are presented as pointy-eared humans with different stat bonuses and a little blip about how living so long is such a drag.  However, let's try something a little different, shall we?

I love the idea of innately magical human-like beings whose relationship to time is, shall we say, a bit more voluntary than ours. However, I am often disappointed by how this is represented in most games. In addition, I think that too often the psychological aspect of elves is ignored or simply defaults to "humans that live a long time." It also doesn't help that magical, immortal, human-like beings often comes with a lot of additional baggage that renders the idea stale. Baggage such as having a particular reverence for nature or xenophobia.

I tend to prefer having that not be the core element of their psychology. Heck, it'd be cool if the virtual immortality thing were something that humans latch onto, rather than something that the elves themselves consider noteworthy.

HUMAN: So, unless something actually kills you, you'll life forever, right?
ELF: (Nonchalant) Yeah.
HUMAN: How do you feel about that? I mean, doesn't it make you sad, knowing that you'll outlive everybody that isn't an elf?
ELF: Can't say that it does.
HUMAN: But--- but--- it should, shouldn't it? You're practically immortal, and everything just fades and dies.
ELF: You're not making any sense. I'm going to have a beer with the dwarf.

What if, instead of immortality, it's magic that differentiates humans and elves? I don't mean magic as something you do, but something you are. Elves would essentially be humans as they often believe they want to be: beautiful, powerful, and free from certain death. In a word, magic creates elves as humans unbound by the ordinary: ordinary cares, ordinary activities, ordinary passions, and ordinary deaths. They are the yearning for wonder manifested on collective scale. Unlike human magicians, elves are innately wonderful (in the Pratchett sense).

Of course, not having to worry about "small" stuff like eating, sleeping, going to the bathroom, and so forth would have profound effects upon one's psychology. Said briefly, most elves would be psychotic by human standards.  It goes without saying that without grounding in everyday reality, it's hard to cultivate virtues like compassion, humility, and temperance. Look at how some celebrities seem to lose touch with everyday reality because they don't have to deal with it as we do. Imagine a nation of people like that.  It's not that they are incapable of empathy or self-control, but their natures are much more extreme. Their emotions are stronger and purer. They are not prone to mixed feelings and lukewarm passions. They do not have hobbies; they have obsessions. They are not merely attracted to someone; they are consumed with lust. They do not have spouses; they have soulmates. They do not experience irritation or annoyance; they feel rage.

The intensity of elven passion can be unsettling, but their dispassion is positively terrifying. When elves do not have an emotional attachment to something, they can be calloused and even cruel. This is not out of malice or a perverse joy in the suffering of others (though that does happen). Rather, it is the complete lack of empathy, the sort of cruelty that provokes a child to tear the wings off of flies, just to see what would happen.  With experience, they can modify their behavior or put situations into perspective, but that does not mean they will be especially easy to deal with.

In a roleplaying context, imagine what it would be like to have such a creature as a companion, en employer, or dependent.  Imagine the sorts of personal, interpersonal, and environmental conflict that happens when introducing a being like this to humankind.  Consider, if you will, what would happen if a young boy named Charlie discovered that his local chocolatier is not a mad genius of a man as he supposed, but a different sort of creature altogether.

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On 8/1/2005 at 11:09am, contracycle wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Justin wrote:
That's exactly what I was saying, perhaps I mis-interpreted the other point of view. I felt that people were suggesting to make up alternate races who were indistinct from humans except for one or two characteristics/caracatures (for example, the mainstream treatment of Elves, Dwarves, Klingons etc.... although I stress the word 'mainstream', as many people have explored these concepts in the above fashion before). And that's an excellent point regarding desiring to play variations on humans from the point of view to explore those facets of human thought and action by emphasising or negating them. Point made.


Actually I think that adding of colour can be counter-productive.  Becuase raising some issue about how we humans think, by the necessity of us all being humans, but then allowing it to be excepted from anthropology into biology and the dumb "well they do it cos they is dwarves" thing obviates this goal.  I think this attempt at inducing variation is precisely the point at which we are in fact talking about culture, and that therefore as soon as it relegated to biology that comparitive analysis is lost.

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On 8/1/2005 at 12:48pm, simon_hibbs wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

contracycle wrote:
Actually I think that adding of colour can be counter-productive.  Becuase raising some issue about how we humans think, by the necessity of us all being humans, but then allowing it to be excepted from anthropology into biology and the dumb "well they do it cos they is dwarves" thing obviates this goal.


I'm not sure precisely what goal you are refering to here. The introduction of colour?

...I think this attempt at inducing variation is precisely the point at which we are in fact talking about culture, and that therefore as soon as it relegated to biology that comparitive analysis is lost.


I think several examples have stablished that some variations in behaviour and psychology cannot be explained purely in terms of culture. Also why is any comaprative analysis lost? Where did it go? I don't see any reason why we can't explore a comparative analysis of the behaviour of very different beings, and the reasons for those differences.

Simon Hibbs

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On 8/1/2005 at 1:35pm, contracycle wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Well I'm not saying its totally impossible, but I am saying I think its counterproductive where a social difference is being represented as a biological one.

I've often mentioned the Kafer of 2300AD as my fave alien species because they really were alien.  They differr from us in that their flight-flight adrenaline analog did not increase physical performance but mental clarity.  So they are dumb until they in danger, and then they get very smart very quickly.  So, all Kafer computers have to be buried in heavy armour to prevent their frustrated users smacking them with a solid object to "make them smarter".

There's a proposed biological difference, and the game can examine what this means, how it would work out.  But if by contrast you establish a hive-mind-like species as a metaphor for social order, and then try to play the game to investigate that supposition, I suggest you will not be able to because like the Kafer scenario you setup precludes any examination of cultural factors: because you have already said, they are born this way.  So issues of culture have been made irrelevant.  "They do it cos they is dwarves" is the in-game reality and there is no need to question the topic further.

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On 8/1/2005 at 2:58pm, Justin Marx wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

contracycle wrote: Well I'm not saying its totally impossible, but I am saying I think its counterproductive where a social difference is being represented as a biological one.


I agree. I have not seen as many games get into describing alternate human cultures as much as they do alternate species. The canvas is just as large and with equal potential.

As for biological determinism vs. cultural determinism, how much actually biology has gone into describing why Dwarves like digging holes and carrying axes? This is usually based on cultural causation - because they live in caves or whatever. Why do they live in caves.... because they do. Because they're Dwarves, and that's what they do. Sometimes this is based on founding myths - created by Earth gods, but why can't these founding myths apply to humans as well? A myth is an aspect of culture. I admit Elves have been more successfully explored, primarily due to their immortality, but basically they come across in most gameplay as haughty, effeminate and as stuck-up as the French...... that's a joke, not an attack. I'm Australian, feel free to respond in kind if I have offended.

Likewise for Vulcans, Romulans, Bajorans, Trekkians in general.... how is the Vulcan's logical obsession represented as biologically induced? They are logical because, yep, they're Vulcans. In fact, they are biologically identical (I'm not a Trek expert, so perhaps I'm slightly wrong) to Romulans, until they disagreed and went their seperate ways. Does this sound like a cultural fracture to anyone else apart from me?

These examples are pertinent, because insofar as they are represented in fiction, I think they are equally represented in gameplay. Perhaps the preponderance for biological determinism stems from the dispositions of many players - I'm going out on a limb here, just an observation - but many players seem to me to be of the more scientific sort. Just as cultural stereotyping comes into play (why do the Chinese prefer rice - because they're Chinese!), so too does racial stereotyping.

Which brings me back to the beginning - if you want to explore excessive personality traits in human beings by imparting them into a different species, in most actual cases of fiction and gameplay, you could probably use an an excessive or aberrant fictional human culture. The only reason of why people do not do this is because of colour.

I am restricting my analysis to mainstream usages of races and species, which like it or not, define much of the way we think about the neccessity of these themes in play. There are a thousand of exceptions to this rule, but the fact remains - most of us play fantasy games with Elves and Dwarves and Halflings (and Oh God no.... fking Kender...). Why do we resort to these all the time? I think because they are the tropes of the genre that the roleplaying community has constructed.

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On 8/2/2005 at 1:50pm, simon_hibbs wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

I think this debate is devolving somewat into two camps:

The ' fantasy/SF races are unnecessery because in Game X and Setting Y they're pointless' camp.

The 'fantasy/SF races can be valid because in Game P and Setting Q they're done realy well' camp.

Of course neither arguments on it's own is very helpful, though I'd note that in practice the contributors here have had more to say than the minimalist versions of the arguments given above.

In the case of Star Trek I would like to offer in it's defence that it's never pretended to be very realistic in it's depiction of aliens. Their rubber-suited-humans nature is usualy an intentional attempt to make sure that it's easy for the audience to pick up on the moral message of the show, and see that the message is relevent to us. The show could be completely re-written as the story of a 17th century ship exploring islands in the South Pacific, and the essential story structures would map very easily. In fact Star Trek was concieved as a science fiction verison of the adventures of Horatio Hornblower and Guliver.

I do agree that Elves/dwarves/etc are often portrayed in their comm D&D-ist incarnation in a shallow and simplistic maner, but that doesn't mean that the concept of an ancient imortal race of the Fey, and the concept of a troglodytic race of impulsive Makers are inherently pointless. They have existed in north european myth since well before recorded history, and have been used inteligently and to good effect in many a tale.

Simon Hibbs

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On 8/4/2005 at 6:23pm, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

killacozzy wrote: Why would aliens have drastically different ways of thinking than humans?

The way I look at it, all human action is based on survival instincts: eating, defending, and procreating.....

Granted, I've never seen a nitrogen-based lifeform, but I really don't see how any physically-existing alien being could deviate much from this model.  Birth, survival, and death are ever-present when elements can combine and separate from whatever stimuli apply.

Of course, that's the way you look at it; but assuming arguendo that you are correct, I think two things remain.

• Aliens can be biologically different from humans in ways that impact culture.• Even given that they are biologically similar, they could still be very different culturally due to very small biological differences.

I have previously mentioned the Bah of Bah Ke'gehn. These creatures morph from one form to the next; as they do so, they gain in understanding and have some different drives. At one point in their life cycle, they are overwhelmed with curiosity and wish to learn everything they can. If they move beyond that stage, they will become leaders caring for the community.

These creatures do not procreate in the way we do. They seem to sprout spontaneously from the grass, pass their embryonic forms as something like bushes attached to the earth, and then break off into their must vulnerable infant stage. Thus there are no biological drives to procreate, because procreation is not a factor in the biology of the adult population--it appears to be a function of the pre-born.

The only food that grows in the world is that same grass.  However, only the infants are able to consume the grass.  They spend all of their time grazing, and produce a byproduct that is food for all the adult members of the species.  Because they have this function, they are a critical link in the structure of the society, and much of the community is geared toward protecting and preserving these infants.

There are a few other biological nuances of the creatures, but these at least demonstrate that a dramatically different psychology can arise from a dramatically different biology, and yet be something comprehensible to humans and playable in a game situation.

I would take the biological/cultural question further, though, even within human bounds. Darwinian anthropologists (or at least those with which I was familiar years ago) maintain that monogamy is a female reproductive strategy, while promiscuity is a male reproductive strategy.  The rationale is that a woman puts a tremendous investment in each of her offspring, and so benefits most from securing for herself the most successful male she can and keeping him. The male, by contrast, has almost nothing invested in bringing a child to term, and so his best reproductive strategy is to mate with as many females as possible. (I'm not agreeing with this, only citing it arguendo.)

On that basis, we would expect to find some cultures in which monogamy was dominant due to strong female control of culture, some in which mating was largely unbounded due to strong male control of culture, and perhaps some in which polygamy had arisen as a compromise.  (Polyandry, on the other hand, would be contrary to both the presumed male and female strategies, and so would be rare in the extreme.)

(I am aware that this theory of monogamy as female strategy is contrary to the popular concept proclaimed by feminists, that monogamy is a male strategy for establishing ownership over women.  I disagree with both views, but mention this to avoid the argument over whether the Darwinian anthropologists are correct--it's not at issue here.)

Slight changes in biology could tip the balance, such that monogamous or promiscuous or polygamous cultures were more likely (without necessarily locking them into one as the only way). More serious changes in biology could have greater cultural impact. Marsupial females carry an infant for a very brief time internally, and then carry them in very fragile form externally. This permits them to conceive sooner, and makes the dependent pre-infant less important to the mother, as she invests considerably less in each of them and can produce more. Similarly, sea horses and some other creatures pass the preborn to the male at some stage of development, which would free the female to conceive again. That arrangement actually increases the investment the male must make in his own progeny. Either of these biological arrangements might conceivable increase the likelihood of polyandrous family units, as the female's optimal strategy might be to find several successful males and hold all of them, while the male's successful strategy might require him to invest more in the birthing and protection of his offspring.

And none of that considers the impact of three-gender systems. I don't know whether anything like a triple helix is physically possible (and I consider it unlikely from an evolutionary standpoint), and Alien Nation suggested a three-gender system in which the third was not a genetic contributor but a necessary facilitator to the mating process (something I consider unlikely both genetically and from an evolutionary standpoint, but interesting nonetheless). However, such a hypothetical three-gender system would have enormous impact on the culture of such a race.

This doesn't even begin to consider variations such as nutrition systems that perform photosynthesis and gain the necessary materials by breathing, drinking, and consuming dirt; sensory abilities that gather information we cannot and fail to gather what we consider normative; mental processes that emphasize different aspects of thought. There are innumerable ways in which a creature that is biologically different can be innately culturally different.

I do not pretend in all this that it has been handled well in most games, or that most players would handle it well. I only observe that having alien races can be a fascinating area to explore, if done well.

--M. J. Young

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On 8/8/2005 at 7:20pm, LandonSuffered wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Simon_hibbs said:

I think this debate is devolving somewat into two camps:

The ' fantasy/SF races are unnecessery because in Game X and Setting Y they're pointless' camp.

The 'fantasy/SF races can be valid because in Game P and Setting Q they're done realy well' camp.


My original question in this thread had to do with game design, and if it was necessary to include specific rules for alien races (whether terrestrial fantasy or extra-).  My conclusion was, nounless a major purpose of the game is to explore what it means to be a particular alien species.

I think some of the examples people have been recently posted (Green’s elves, Contracycle’s kafers, M.J. Young’s Bah Ke’gehn and Newcomers) serve as examples of ideas that could be riffed into a whole game in and of themselves.  But when creating system rules for a particular life form (whether the rules are based on strange biology, extreme psychology, or the one leading to the other) it’s best used in making a game specifically of that race.

Want a game where dwarves have developed small and stout because of their strange psychology of living in caves (because of the cave’s association with their primitive earth god)?  Create DwarfWorld, and write pages and pages of traditions, mythology, biology, mating customs, natural enemies, etc.

Want a game where you play soft-bodied aliens forced to live in exo-skeletons who (as a result) have grown to hate all forms of upright internal skeleton organics? Create a game like Mechanoids from the alien point of view.

Want a game where a particular race of alien refugees have landed on Earth and are attempting to assimilate themselves into human society (a fantasy twist on any old tale of immigration to a new country)? Create a game based on the Alien Nation film/comic series.

I disagree that “fantay/SF races can be valid because they’re done really well.”  I think they are always valid as part of color/setting when called for by a particular setting.  However, I think paying special/heavy attention to them system-wise can be a waste of space in a game (even when “done well”) where the main thrust is something other than exploration of a particular culture (most “adventure-type” fantasy games, for example). It’s just like adding one more class or one more spell-list or one more pigeon-holed archetype…or one more way to min-max, or one more way to justify a particular behavioral style when “role-playing.”

And by waste, I mean “unnecessary use,” not necessarily garbage.

Conversely in any game that actually involves exploration of a particular race as part of its premise (OrkWorld, Mechanoids, Alien Nation), then there should be some heavy system rules to back-up the exploration…and these rules should have nothing to do with game “balance” when it comes to setting the alien next to the human (if humans are included at all).

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On 8/8/2005 at 10:20pm, madelf wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Of the three, I see 1 as holding the most potential, but also a very high risk of going badly wrong. I've never seen a punishment mechanic being fun so I doubt the potential of 3, while 2 strikes me as the easiest to implement in an effective manner.


How about a combination of 1 and  2?

Set the races up as lists of traits (good trait & bad traits, or Advantages/Disadvantages - though I prefer more generic traits where a "good" trait can sometimes bite you in the ass and a "bad" trait might save your bacon, but to each their own). Now when someone wants an elf "package" or a dwarf "package", they buy that block of traits (assuming a point system). So, at the root, you're using a simple Advantage/Disadvantage system as a mechanic to provide whatever racial distinctions you want - physical, psychological, whatever.

This gives the added advantage of making mixed-race characters very easy, as they can simply buy traits from either package (though likely a point limit would prevent them having all the traits of both races) and making new races would also be a breeze.

Use of these traits could be "enforced" by a reward system. Use something as an advantage, to give you a bonus on roll, and that's it's own reward. But if you roleplay the trait, in a situation where doing so is not in the character's best interest, then you get a reward (Drama/Hero points, or XP bonus, or something).

This is (roughly) how I'm attempting to structure things for my game.

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On 8/9/2005 at 8:52pm, RobNJ wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

It seems to me that the original question is a concern about race-as-splat versus race-constructed-through-stats.  The original poster doesn't seem to have a problem with non-human characters, but rather with having a pre-determined wad of bennies as a mechanical widget added on to the PC.  Am I right?  If so, it seems like the real question is why do anything as splats (character class, clan, race, lodge, whatever) versus pure constructed character (Champions, Dogs in the Vineyard, etc.).

I'm not an expert at this but it seems like splats serve as the game designer's way of more firmly underlining the setting, working it into the mechanics in a way that makes setting much more integrated.  There are other ways to do this of course (make rules that underscore setting).

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On 8/9/2005 at 8:55pm, RobNJ wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

I can't seem to edit my last post, so I'll just add:  Splats are also fun.  It can be fun to take 2 (or 4, or 6) parts, stick them together, and see what you get.

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On 8/10/2005 at 5:05am, Green wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

LandonSuffered wrote:
My original question in this thread had to do with game design, and if it was necessary to include specific rules for alien races (whether terrestrial fantasy or extra-).  My conclusion was, nounless a major purpose of the game is to explore what it means to be a particular alien species.

I think some of the examples people have been recently posted (Green’s elves, Contracycle’s kafers, M.J. Young’s Bah Ke’gehn and Newcomers) serve as examples of ideas that could be riffed into a whole game in and of themselves.  But when creating system rules for a particular life form (whether the rules are based on strange biology, extreme psychology, or the one leading to the other) it’s best used in making a game specifically of that race.

Conversely in any game that actually involves exploration of a particular race as part of its premise (OrkWorld, Mechanoids, Alien Nation), then there should be some heavy system rules to back-up the exploration…and these rules should have nothing to do with game “balance” when it comes to setting the alien next to the human (if humans are included at all).


Are you basically saying that unless the relationships between two or more alien species is a large part of the setting, it is superfluous to include alien races or to use rules to represent them?  If that's your point, I agree with where you're coming from.  However, even in settings where you have multiple alien races, what is the best way to present them to facilitate their portrayal?  I realize this could be a question for another thread or for PMs, but I just want to throw it out there for those who'd like to take it in that direction.

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On 8/10/2005 at 6:59am, LandonSuffered wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

Green said:


...in settings where you have multiple alien races, what is the best way to present them to facilitate their portrayal?


Depends on the type of game youre trying to design, what it is your game is about.

As an example, take a look at Chaosium’s ElfQuest.  Based on the standard Chaosium game design, the game attempts to be as true to Wendy Pini’s classic comic series by examining elves from her point of view: looking at their history, their customs, their names, and body types, plus adding rules based on their biological functions (for example “soul names,” “sending,” and “recognition” with regard to procreation).  For folks who enjoy the comics, ElfQuest is an excellent sim-facilitated game design, focused heavily on “what it means to be an elf on the World of Two Moons.” I’ve played in an ElfQuest campaign, and run a campaign with a completely different group, and both times had a blast...but that’s the kind of game world we wanted to explore.  As an example of multiple possible “alien races” (elf, troll, and human), I found it to be refreshingly un-balanced and well-done.

I would also argue that Sorcerer is a game that explores a particular alien race: demons.  Although Sorcerer is not an exploration of what demons are, each Sorcerer game has to answer questions about what a demon is when designing the theme of a particular scenaro.  This is a completely different approach in game design from an ElfQuest or OrkWorld-type game.  Yes, the whats and whys of the alien are necessary for the specific setting. Yes, special rules apply to the alien race. No, the game does not explore what it is to be a demon (usually); it explores premise and theme in a world where demons exist and interact with humans/player characters.

In both these examples, a non-human race is very much a necessary component of the game...it is not a class or add-on, and is more than simple color.  But that is because of the design of the game and what the game designers wanted to do. Both are effective in meeting the goal of game play, but both approach the subject differently based on design goals.

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On 8/11/2005 at 8:14pm, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Re: Race/Species in Fantasy RPGs: Is It Necessary?

I think inherent in Green's last post is another question. What if the game is at least in part about very different peoples interacting? Granted that this is a popular science fiction/fantasy metaphor for human races, or cultures, or nations, and could as easily be portrayed as such, it is inherent to the genres that such clashes are built on the fact that these are different life forms. Thus if you are doing a Star Trek world, you need Vulcans and Klingons at the very least, possibly Romulans, Cardassians, Bajorans, and a host of others, so that the players can pick these different kinds of people to bring together. If you're not doing Star Trek, but you're doing something like it, you probably do need the assortment of races to make that kind of statement about the interaction of differing cultures within the genre.

I understand that it can be and has been badly done; but I think to say it should not be done unless you're focusing on exploring what one particular creature is like is not a valid position. It is a perfectly valid use of species in these genres to serve as a metaphor for human interaction, and excluding it precisely because it is a metaphor is missing the point.

--M. J. Young

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