This topic went quite while I was away. It is an area that I am very interested as I have been trying to something similar myself. Was anything developed from the ideas discussed?

From my point I think action types is a good way to go. As someone mentioned actions on cards? Using the model discussed somewhere else, that the rock scissors paper model that is used by the best consul fighting games is useable and add to that, some kind of value. Players could then have values for specif attack types that they favour, combining the two, card/value and preferance wouid give a set of combinations.
Though combining in dice pools also séems that it would work. Like combat itself there seem to be no end of ways to confront this problem and the solution, as in combat more often than not is about finding, not which is best, but which is best for you.

H

For my system, I'm making all moves sleightly general in nature so they can fit with any form, breaking them down by what is causing the damage (Hand, Head, Arm, Leg, Foot, Tentacle...) and then the different variants of each limb (Fist, Spearhand, Fingertip Strike, Chinese Star...) For martial arts, I then break them down into packages of maneuver skills, and other related skills for players to spend points in.  Of course, I'm still testing on this on how well it works, but so far so good. :c)

Okay, I will make a confession. GURPS Martial Arts is my guilty pleasure. A catalog of martial arts broken down into discrete manuevers? It's like martial arts porn.

However, I can't actually imagine using any of those rules for actually playing a game. Vincent, in a recent spiel about System and Rules has a very good diagram of how GURPS actually gets played. Looking at something on your character sheet, then cross-referencing one or more excyclopedia entries, THEN calculating the target number, then blah blah blah doesn't really seem to capture the pace and excitement of unarmed combat.

So my thought is you can't just come up with a "martial arts system" and drape an RPG framework over it and have it be much fun. Why don't you tell us more about your game in general, so there's some context for how martial arts might be represented?

Instead of defining specific schools, skills, etc, you could always define traits of skills, and define skill that way.
You could break it up into body part used, body part aimed for, speed of skill, power of skill, etc. So instead of strict definitions, you can give characters choices. Give them a certain amount of points to spend per attack to define the attack, that way they can customize each and every attack, because thats what a martial arts fight is about. Techniques are utterly useless, you learn techniques to solidify movements, so that become part of your natural flow in a fight.

FZ The the problem with what you say is that I belive that it become too complicated, after all, there are so many variations and possibilities in combat that calculating the variations for one person are almost limitless, let alone the interation between more than one person. Again it all dependson how one defines a trait, one thought that I have had is that one has to divide points, dice etc, between timing and commitment when performing a maneuver, making use of timing allows better control of the opponent, but at the expense of it actual deciceness with the action. I'm not sure that this will work but it has some merit.

Part of my problem is that I teach combat and so finding a balance of representing what I know into a workable game system is hard.
One has to consider that in reality that some systems are technique heavy and others tend toward a concept based system and finding the balance between these with in one workabe system is tricky.
I am now tending toward a system that divides the actions in to the various types, kick punch, grapple etc. etc and then players can build up theie ability with these individually, therefore making certain types of action preferable for the player and using certain maneuvers would increase ability with them. Obviously one could then decide the certain styles and systems woudl favour certain types of actions and therefore the player would have to stick with those over others. Specific techniques could be used in systems that favoured them but with the disadvantage that one begun it would be hard for a technique to be changed where as more on the fly systems would be able to change and adapt more rapidly but at the expense of speed of application?

JW

I disagree, because I'm not saying define it into an undefinable amount. Some things inwhich you said are exactly what I said.

So, lets split it this way:
Which Body part to use: leg, Head, Arm, Body/other.
Which Body part to aim for: Leg, Head, Arm, Body/other.
Goal of Attack: Grapple, Damage.

Split 5 points among these, 6 is best, 1 is worst:
Force of Attack: 1
Speed of Attack: 1
Defendability of Attack:

Then define a set property for each thing chosen. Say, if you use your leg you get an automatic +1 Damage Bonus.
Then define the ranks for the three areas you split points between, 1 force may be 1d2 while 6 force may be 2d8. Etc etc.
Then define which cannot be done, like Grappling with your Head.

You have given a simple set of choices that the characters can pick from to customize attacks that will be useful in a particular situation. You don't have to define them much further.

Ah FZ, that makes sense to me now and I see what you mean and like it.
What about range? What are your thoughts there? After all though there are some over laps with theoptions you offer, ie, I can can use my leg to knee at the same range that I might use my arm to punch etc, certain moves must be done at specifc ranges. In mty thoughts I have had problems with using the range of action and have thought being influenced by Jasper, that ranges can also run as phases, maneuver, close etc.

Also questions;
The points that you are dividing between the various parts of an action, where do they come from, the PCs ability I am assuming?

You have defensability of action/attack. From my point of view that is already defined by the previous two factors, speed and force or is that what you meant?

Also as a bit of a side line here is a card absed system from a martial artist practicing in the Amercan heritage, Pete Kautz.
http://alliancemartialarts.com/kfh.html

JW

JW - Glad you liked Kung Fu Heroes!  KFH is also an RPG-light though I have never put the rules online.  The players have action decks of cards and character sheets.  The bad guys are controlled by dice / charts so it can also be played solo.  With every completed scene the players get to add cards to their decks to show how they are improving throughout the "film".

Best of all,

Pete Kautz / Latigo

Pete,
I like the system as it works well and has given me soem good ides for my own system development for weapon based combat. I didn't expect to see you here when I posted the link for these guys. 8´ )

JW

You could define range, but I think it may be an extra factor to throw in that may make things crunchy. Characters may assume they can maneuver into range of the attack, but if the attack is so close that it may be dangerous, then thats where my defendibility idea comes in.

Various attacks have niether a speed advantage or a power advantage, but more of a "You will be confused and unable to block" advantage. Or, attacks may be fast and painful, but easy to block/avoid. Like, knee'ing someone is difficult because they can block it easier, even though it is faster than a kick. It could also deal with predictability of the move, for example, an uppercut is less predictable, because it may just look like a punch aimed towards the stomach, but with a snap, it can hit the chin.

On the topic of how the division comes into place. I think ability should be a limit. A weaker fighter shouldn't be able to throw all their points into power, and if they do, they should recieve penalties else where. So you could define ability as the threshold before penalties or limits are applied. Fighters of certain expertise and ability, can pull off faster, harder punches, so that may deal with "Experience" how many allocation points they get. While some characters may automatically get a +1 to an area.

I think i understand what you mean, it is a problem with didtance that I have had, but I think that it has place, certainly if one starts dealing with weapons, however even in UA,  the range of a kick is greater than the range of an elbow. Perhaps you coudl explain how your defendability idea would work as at the moment I cant get it clear in my head.

As I mentioned the Idea of Jasper using phases, ie manuever, Fight, close etc. These are also stages of the fight but can looslt cover the affects of range as well, so a kick could be attempted on the transition between  'maneuver' and 'fight', but an elbow can only be used in 'close'. By the way these aren't Jaspers phases but some I interpreted from his initial idea.  My point is that I belive that there is a need to define soem form of distance as after all different styles favour stpes of attacks that are didstamce specific. Also the defendability of a Kick for example will be one thing at its correct distance, but another if the target chooses to close the distance and get in side the powere curve of the kick as it is delivered.

Surely one would make the choice of speed and force up to the player, unless one were defining some advantage, such as the + to powere for a kick, or perhaps the speed advantage of a straight line punch etc.?

I agree that a player shouldn't be able to pile all there points into one area, speed or force, they shoudl have to put atleast 1 into either. I think that the idea of giving more experience fighters a greater number of points to spend would be a possible option, perhaps with the fact that experience makes the use of certain actions preferable or even imperative IE the fighter is trained in a very specific style.

JW

I think has passed the line between theoretical and game design, but I don't mind :D They are infact intertwined.

I have no solution for your range paradox. I understand what you are saying, I just have no idea how to resolve this issue without going into specifics. Or, you could create a range attribute, that shares points with Power and Speed, so you must split it even more.
The idea I threw out required no naming of skills, just "A leg attack aimed at their head, focusing heavily into power and some into speed" would be adequete. That could infact be a variety of kicks, from ax to snap to roundhouse, but I didn't bother to define it that way because I figured you would want a system that was not focused in the specifics of moves, but more the dynamic of combat. Because in combat, it doesn't matter what the name of the move is, just how hard it hits.
Or of course, you could have the fighters declare their actions secretly, then have it like Rock-Paper-Scissors.
Ranged Beats Grapples
Grapples Beat Close
Close beats Range.
Which simplifies it, but sort of gets the dynamic in.
The phase idea could work as well, but that may require you to define things on a specific level rather than general.

I agree with your point that much of what makes an attack important is how hard it hits, but for the person on the recieving end of the attack, the main thing is to not be there when the blow lands. So one at least has to have some consideration of maneuver with or with out range, maneuver to avoid being hit while amneuvering to be able to hit.

I certainly feel that insome situations the Rock scisors Paper model works especially if you add soem form of value to different manuevers so that makes those options preferable for finishing the fight.

JW

Larry wrote:
Okay, I will make a confession. GURPS Martial Arts is my guilty pleasure. A catalog of martial arts broken down into discrete manuevers? It's like martial arts porn.

However, I can't actually imagine using any of those rules for actually playing a game. Vincent, in a recent spiel about System and Rules has a very good diagram of how GURPS actually gets played. Looking at something on your character sheet, then cross-referencing one or more excyclopedia entries, THEN calculating the target number, then blah blah blah doesn't really seem to capture the pace and excitement of unarmed combat.

Follow the link to another game that deals with Martial Arts combat, it may prove to be helpful or at least fun for some of you to play!
JW

http://www.angelfire.com/games2/warpspawn/KungFu.html