Topic: Memetics in RPGs
Started by: Resonantg
Started on: 7/29/2005
Board: RPG Theory
On 7/29/2005 at 7:01pm, Resonantg wrote:
Memetics in RPGs
I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but my searches on the site proved fruitless, so I'll bring it up.
In the game world I'm dealing with (Orion's Arm) we have a particularly touchy situation in where memetics need to be a part of the game itself. For those not familiar with Memes and Memetics, you can find out more from Richard Dawkins' book "The Selfish Gene" where the term originated and many of the sociological and anthropological books written on the topic. Ultimately a Meme is a piece of information, idea or belief that acts similar to a gene and "seeks" self propagation. Memetics is the study and science on how these memes then begin, grow and propagate and influence people and society. The issue I have to deal with is that in OA, Memetics are considered an "as read" technology with quite powerful implications. The theory is that if you can control the ideas of a population, you can make it do whattever you want.
In the RPG, this is where it gets sticky. I know first hand how much it ticks many players off to have a situation forced on them to "believe" or act a certain way, especially after they have either completed a carefully crafted concept or have balanced their character's abilities and weaknesses just the way they want. What I need to do and am not quite sure how to reach it, is to develop a system in which memetics can be made into a sub game similar to either combat or some other form of competative nature.
This of course makes for the odd situation of where ideas are given statistics which is quite mercurial. And then, how do you gauge how many memes are truely part of a character's personality (like religion, brand loyalty, prejudices loves and hates) rather than just taking up space in "pop culture" filter of their mind that pop out occasionally but otherwise don't really influence the mind of the character much (think movie quotes, or commercial jingles or pop music, or even witty sayings and jokes).
So essentially I'm looking for ideas others may have seen or questions I haven't thought about regarding memetics. Currently on my design forum site, there is a thread dealing with it here:
http://www.orionsarm.com/dyn/bbs/rpg/viewtopic.php?t=55
Nothing's final in this, but rather this is just ideas we bounced around for a while. Thanks for anything new anyone can suggest for ideas or direction to move in. I just hate development block. :c)
On 7/29/2005 at 7:14pm, Alan wrote:
Re: Memetics in RPGs
You could solve the problem by giving the players complete control over what memes their character obeys. Only NPCs would actually be _forced_ to obey a meme. Also, it would be even more interesting if the players could create the memes in the game.
- Alan
On 7/29/2005 at 7:43pm, Miskatonic wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
MDB,
It seems to me any implementation of memetics is very strongly dependent on the larger structure of the game. This is kinda like asking "How do I represent martial arts in an RPG?" or "How do I represent belief systems in an RPG?" I dunno -- what kind of RPG are we talking about? So I think this question needs to be either, "How do a handle memetics in Orion's Arm RPG," which goes in Indie Game Design, or, "Let's talk about memetics," which is not really on-topic.
If I were developing an RPG that focused on memetics, I would use Mike Holmes' Synthesis as a starting place. It revolves around competing abstract concepts.
On 7/29/2005 at 8:36pm, Miskatonic wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
Wait. That was a little ranty. To clarify: I'm looking for more information on your goals.
I actually have a whole pile of ideas about this subject that I could blather on about but this could easily go to all sorts of crazy tangents that aren't immediately relevant.
On 7/29/2005 at 10:51pm, Vaxalon wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
Would it be possible for players at that stage of the game to play memes instead of people?
On 7/31/2005 at 5:24pm, Resonantg wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
Wait. That was a little ranty. To clarify: I'm looking for more information on your goals.
I actually have a whole pile of ideas about this subject that I could blather on about but this could easily go to all sorts of crazy tangents that aren't immediately relevant.
No worries, you made a very valid point, I did kind of chuck it out there like that, didn't I? So apologies for that. I'll get into this more in a bit.
Would it be possible for players at that stage of the game to play memes instead of people?
Not really, since although Memes seem like they are sentient, they aren't really. But that would make for a very interesting sub game along the lines of Illuminati (which I haven't played but heard lots about).
Now, as for goals of what I'm hoping to do. This is kind of multiple fold. One part of this is because the setting of Orion's Arm actually deals in more depth on how Memetics is a major sociological control technology, and is in real life really a new science. So this lead to the need to put some sort of memetic system in place to handle the controlling power of some civilizations that utilize this tech more heavily than others. Part of me thought about using something like "radiation rules" as found in Twilight 2000, where if you're in range of the Meme, you have a chance to be affected or damaged by it. The other vision I had was similar to "astral toxicity" rules found in the Shadowrun 2nd ed, Grimoire book a while back where everything has a background radiation count and you had to save against it to prevent damage to your abilities. So these two concepts have been in the back of my head. That being said, neither work quite right but it was a jumping off point to consider.
The next issue is that I was planning to use Memetics, or as we've been calling it for the Character Generation process "Socio-Memetics" which would not only include your Memesets, but also your Personality type, Notoriety (fame/infamy), and other artifacts of the one's personality and socio-cognative existance. We're doing away with alignments, instead leaving it up to the character to decide behavior, based on a profile divined from your personality index taken from the real world Psychological tests like the MMPE. All together, it would create a sociological arena in which "combat" between ideas, resisting torture and social interaction will have impact in a point fashion. Yes it's potentially complex, and technically, it could be an optional rule set, but so far, we've seen a lot of possibility for it, and a new front for players to have that tense "combat" feel without blood flowing or fists flying.
I'm interested in this game, "Synthesis" you mention and will probably research it. Thanks for the tip.
You could solve the problem by giving the players complete control over what memes their character obeys. Only NPCs would actually be _forced_ to obey a meme. Also, it would be even more interesting if the players could create the memes in the game.
We do plan for characters to create their own memes as well as GMs. And of course their effectiveness at spreading is quite useful. Case in point for what happened in a D&D game I played recently. Character named Laertes, (pronounced Layer Tease) had a tendancy to act as 'bait' in our group's traps. Hence I named him "Baiter Tease". This is a new meme I created. The Meme was very effective because now the group has a tendancy to call his character that even when he was not doing such actions. This is a good example of a gameplay created meme that could eventually be used in a memetic system for the game itself. The rules to quantify something like that would is where the issue currently lies and I am probing to see if anyone's got any good ideas on it. :c)
Secondly, although it would work easiest to leave NPCs the only ones affected by the memeset stats, it then gives PCs an easy out. One concept I had running in my head is this, The players land on a world and leave the space port and are hit by "Madvert" (memetic advertising) for Blasto brand guns. And say Blasto is an incredibly poor quality weapon and the group knows it. Now, if the meme gets in their head, so to speak, they have a sudden brand loyalty to Blasto guns, and their characters are restricted to buying on those products till they figure out that they've been memed and can break it's influence on them. It's a twist for GMs to use that potentially can be a lot of fun. The group may ask themselves, why do we always vacation in Nueva Vegas when we hate it? Because they're being manipulated by commercials they see. Or why don't they go past Door 13 on their ship? Because some memetician has hit them with subliminals and is hiding stuff in there. These are just some aspects of things I'm thinking of in how memetic combat could work and effect the game.
Oh here's another aspect of Memetics: Celebrity. When someone's a celebrity, people act towards them differently. Famous people get free stuff, passes on bad behavior and other "easements" because they're famous. Of course, they get added headaches like if you have a bad day and tick someone off, suddenly you're getting your food spit in, and possibly have a stalker or two, and need a staff of 3 to handle fan mail. I would love to codify a way to handle this. I've already done so with the Notoriety system which was inspired by the reputation system of the VG "Freelancer" and a few other games, but most of all by the apparent lack of understanding of the phenomenon of celebrity in gaming in general (although I haven't done any serious research beyond what I've seen with game systems I've played). So this is also my attempt to create a system that uses this and let's players know what kind of pull they may have with groups and populations, not to mention let's GMs know better how to react with things of this regard.
I hope this helps clarify myself some more and what not. I do appreciate all the assistance I get in this matter. :c) All the more for a better game.
On 8/1/2005 at 5:57am, Noon wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
It might annoy players even more if you leave them to act as they will, then imply the meme made them act that way for some as yet unknown reason. Then, taking their actions you invent reasons why that meme was released (eg, with the right NPC, it leads to very beneficial effects, for the big bad guy)
It'd be pretty bizarre kind of player empowerment over what happens in the game.
On 8/1/2005 at 10:39am, contracycle wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
I think you might be able to go for an attritional representaiton.
I don't think mandating that players have spent their hard-earned blood money on Blasto guns is going to go down at all well. But, you could compel them to accept a point of Cognitive Dissonance or something in order to have resisted doing so. This sort of structure retains the outright coercive element of social memetics but allows an individualised response to the situation.
On 8/1/2005 at 3:08pm, Resonantg wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
Callan: You're statement intreagues me, but I'm not quite sure I understood it completely. Could you elaborate more perhaps? :c)
Contracycle: Yep, that was once thrown out there a while ago with cognitive dissonance, the problem is, how to represent that "splinter from the windmills of their mind" that causes them problems when they resist the Meme. Hmmmmmm... maybe that is a very good point. If you don't, for instance, use Blasto guns, you're penalized for using it because you're distracted by worrying about what you're using. That's potentially a REALLY good idea. ( I only say potentially because some of my own "really good ideas" have blown up in my face in playtesting.)
Where I see Memetics being a problem are going to be the "Luke, I am your Father." level of Memes that once experienced can fundamentally change the character over time or near instantly once the character processes them. I do admit, this is a delecate area to some gamers, so I know whattever system is created has to have enough of a gamist structure for players to just see it is a supporting framework that just tracks statistics of what they are doing anyway, and only interferes when players try to ignore what their characters are. Of course, with Memetics being able to change, potentially without warning, and alter the entire framework of a character, issues may arize. But then again, is this any more than a player who acts out of character having his alignment forcibly changed by the GM. (last game I was in 2 players had this happen when they continually decided to be thugs.)
Ideas on systems in which to do this seem to be out there and possible. The hard part is putting it in a method that is fun to play and doesn't destroy the experience for the gamer while opening up new grounds for players to experience the game.
:c)
On 8/2/2005 at 3:47am, Noon wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
Well, say a PC runs across a busy road to save a child. As GM you then imply the meme made him more likely to run across roads. And in other areas of the city, other people are doing it and getting hit, needing hospitalisation and making Limb Fix Corp richer, because they supply med tech and set off the meme in the first place.
Instead of forcing specific behaviour in a player, their free will behaviours force the rest of the game world into a crisis situation. A situation you invent in reaction to their action. But you then imply their PC is just another victim of memes. I'd think it preferable if the players know how this works though.
On 8/2/2005 at 12:57pm, Miskatonic wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
MDB, (what do people usually call you?)
I haven't forgotten about you. I have a bunch of thoughts on how to approach this which will take a while to write up. Bear with me.
On 8/3/2005 at 12:03am, Resonantg wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
Instead of forcing specific behaviour in a player, their free will behaviours force the rest of the game world into a crisis situation. A situation you invent in reaction to their action. But you then imply their PC is just another victim of memes. I'd think it preferable if the players know how this works though.
Not quite sure I understand this statement. Maybe I need to clarify what I'm thinking more. Take for instance that the character's religion is "X". This is considered a Memeset and it has the major influence on how he acts and behaves. To put this in a stat format, Say that since it's his primary Memeset, it has a "Power" of 9 over him in a 0-10 scale. Also, let's assume that it is a very virulent memeset, which causes him to spread it quite effectively. Again on a virulence scale of 0-10, it's a 7. But now, it's a complex Memeset, which makes it hard to understand to those who don't have it, so it has a comprehension stat of say 3.
Now imagine our character coming up against others who have different memes, and he shares a bit about his religion, this meme can now fight to see if it infects others he shares with, or vice versa as they share their memes with him. This is what I am talking about in regards to memetic combat I guess. This is a very very rough idea of course, but conveys some of the essense of what I'm considering.
MDB, (what do people usually call you?)
I haven't forgotten about you. I have a bunch of thoughts on how to approach this which will take a while to write up. Bear with me.
That's cool. I'm just happy for suggestions or people to bounce ideas off of. Seems like the whole world's on vacation with my group as of late. ;c) Michael's fine.
Ciao for now.
On 8/3/2005 at 6:09pm, LogicaLunatic wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
Callan wrote:
Well, say a PC runs across a busy road to save a child. As GM you then imply the meme made him more likely to run across roads. And in other areas of the city, other people are doing it and getting hit, needing hospitalisation and making Limb Fix Corp richer, because they supply med tech and set off the meme in the first place.
Instead of forcing specific behaviour in a player, their free will behaviours force the rest of the game world into a crisis situation. A situation you invent in reaction to their action. But you then imply their PC is just another victim of memes. I'd think it preferable if the players know how this works though.
In my opinion this completely goes against the idea that the player is playing a 'role playing' game. Yeah, perhaps the character running across the road gives the GM an idea for a big Limb Fix Corp. conspiracy (a Limb Fix executive witnesses this and suggests spreading a Meme at a board meeting or something) but the Meme MUST come before the action.
Options...
1) Memes act as a kind of Character Alignment. The character must role play that alignment until his/her memes change.
2) Memes bring new situational roles to the table. Say character A would normally not think twice about killing a Sun Elf but a recently acquired 'Sun Elves Are Holy' Meme makes the decision to attack or not partially (or completely) based on a roll.
3) Memes provide slight bonuses and disadvantages depending on the situation.
Additionally, if Memes can be spread in an unatural way (through a power or technology) then all characters should have that ability within their grasp at some point. If it is a power or technology then that must be fleshed out in the game story.
On 8/3/2005 at 11:45pm, Resonantg wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
1) Memes act as a kind of Character Alignment. The character must role play that alignment until his/her memes change.
2) Memes bring new situational roles to the table. Say character A would normally not think twice about killing a Sun Elf but a recently acquired 'Sun Elves Are Holy' Meme makes the decision to attack or not partially (or completely) based on a roll.
3) Memes provide slight bonuses and disadvantages depending on the situation.
That's the ticket! In a way it is a replacement for alignment and is much more mutable than what we seen in single to triple word alignment descriptions. As it is right now, GAMM-D (the OA/RPG engine under development) Memetics is one part of this, the other major parts are Notoriety and Personality. Noteriety will definately help change social interactions via fame or infamy, and can gauge whether or not you're a flash-in-the-pan, or a true legend. Personality can act, at least what I'm hoping for, as a broad scale like/dislike descriptor of personality (Introvert/Extrovert, Thinker/Perciever, Relativist/Absolutist...) that can also help protect the character against certain types of memes that are contrary to their personality. So, this is what's all being melded together, or trying to be, but I'm not sure with memetics yet on how things can be mitigated where you don't steal from the game, but at the same time you take into effect times when characters are being bombarded with very persuesive messages that you can't get across just sitting at the dinner table and in a way that may be entertaining to players.
Additionally, if Memes can be spread in an unatural way (through a power or technology) then all characters should have that ability within their grasp at some point. If it is a power or technology then that must be fleshed out in the game story.
Well, not all memes are spread by technology, torture can be a factor, good philosophical arguments, setting and timing can enhance their effect as well. Technically, a meme can be as simple as the "Meow Mix" commercial jingle. It can get stuck in your head, has a tendancy to "mutate" into other variants for humor as well and people just don't seem to forget it. That being said, I don't think that would be a good example of a meme that has any "game value". This is where I'm not sure where to draw the line either. How to define or show relevant memes, so a player isn't feeling like they have to start writing every little thing down.
So, suggestions are still well appreciated. :c)
On 8/4/2005 at 12:32am, Noon wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
Resonantg wrote:
Not quite sure I understand this statement. Maybe I need to clarify what I'm thinking more.
Ah, no, I was suggesting something in a very different direction, in responce to player choices being forced. From what your saying, I think you might be interested in investigating cause and effect...my idea revolved around taking a behaviour and inventing a cause for it. It's a bit out there.
On 8/10/2005 at 4:46pm, Miskatonic wrote:
RE: Re: Memetics in RPGs
Michael,
I've decided this topic is too big to address constructively. Specifically, there are a lot of judgment calls you have to make as the designer that won't be relevant to other designs. Now, if you're unclear as to why I say that, I can point you to a bunch of articles and posts that explain the "big" decisions. But basically, I could sit here for hours and explain about a dozen ways you could handle memetics, but I think it will be more useful if we determine what your design goals are and work from there.
Why don't you start a thread in Indie Game Design and we can have a discussion about Memetics in Orion's Arm?